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04/20/2005 01:32:12 PM · #1 |
As I was looking through the Abandoned Buildings challenge, I wanted to know if the comments I made were same/similar to what other members saw and commented on.
I didn't start from #1, I started from last place and worked the other way, looking at what I voted the shot at and can see (in the bold text) if I had made comments during the challenge. If I made a comment, I would look over the other comments to see if I was seeing the same things others saw and said.
After making some 250 comments during the challenge, I was also curious if the individual found my comments helpful or not, and in some cases, was a bit disappointed that specific help to improve a shot wasn't found to be helpful.
It's real easy to give positive comments on a beautiful shot, but it is ten times harder to find the words to say a picture isn't very good and find a way to offer suggestions on ways to improve it. In many cases, I offered to help after the challenge if needed, and gave a few pointers as to where to find the excellent tutorials on the site for preparing an image for a challenge. Hope it wasn't a wasted effort.
So when you get a few spare minutes/hours, look back over the last 25% and the first 25% or so of the images and see if you critiqued a shot out in left field, or if you were right there with everyone else - it's a great excersize in getting a pulse on your own views after the fact.
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04/20/2005 01:39:51 PM · #2 |
| I've already thanked others for their comments, yours included. I appreciated it especially since you've won a few ribbons yourself. |
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04/20/2005 01:43:05 PM · #3 |
I agree, not one of the few comments I have received in the people challenge had anything to do with the photo quality, only the subject matter. Pet challenge I received comments about the photo quality like how to better crop, color, sat, etc.
I myself try and make comments about photo quality -- not always but I do try.
Anyway one or two WORDS can give a lot of information about how to improve ones photo.
and it does not take long to post a one or two work comment
Examples:
-soft
-out of focus
-to sat.
-cropping could use work
-main focus??
these comments may sound negative -- but if taken in context the comments could be used to improve ones photo ability.
Message edited by author 2005-04-20 13:44:22. |
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04/20/2005 02:37:44 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by BradP:
...After making some 250 comments during the challenge, I was also curious if the individual found my comments helpful or not, and in some cases, was a bit disappointed that specific help to improve a shot wasn't found to be helpful.
It's real easy to give positive comments on a beautiful shot, but it is ten times harder to find the words to say a picture isn't very good and find a way to offer suggestions on ways to improve it... |
It may be easy to comment (per se) on a beautiful shot, but I doubt it's easy to say what makes it so. I often receive comments of the sort you describe. Frankly, it is rare that I find myself adopting the suggested improvement. Depending on the tone, I may just as easily resent or dismiss it.
When I read comments like "You shoulda rotated it", "Next time use Flash" or words describing the inclusion of an incidental figure in a landscape as 'the subject', my silent response may just be "I woulda not", "Next time use a gun" or "Do you do oil changes too?".
I feel my skills are improved by looking at photos better than and different from mine. More thorough comments aimed at coming to terms with the facts of these, how and why something works or not, are naturally more rooted in curiosity sincere interest than comments easily derived from a repertoire of eclectic personal opinions and skills, particularly if the context (the world of emotional energy that sprouted the work in the first place) is not appreciated or even tackled.
What good is it to citicize a poor or mediocre image for its faults, if we do not provide examples of what makes a good photograph good and a great one great? To struggle with this, to put into words what and how we see, this, to me, is the greater challenge.
Message edited by author 2005-04-20 14:39:16.
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04/20/2005 02:51:14 PM · #5 |
Wow! Very Zen like. ;^) Sorry, couldn't resist...
I agree with what Brad had to say also in that it's very challenging to give negative/constructive feedback that is helpful. If done correctly, the recipient should get a better feel of what may or may not have swung votes one way or the other. That's certainly better than getting a lower than average score and being left scratching your head - what could I have done differently - what didn't they (voters) like?
Yes, in the end, it's most important that YOU personally are happy with your work. I think most of us take pride in what we do, and always want to improve.
Originally posted by zeuszen:
...I feel my skills are improved by looking at photos better than and different from mine. More thorough comments aimed at coming to terms with the facts of these, how and why something works or not, are naturally more rooted in curiosity sincere interest than comments easily derived from a repertoire of eclectic personal opinions and skills, particularly if the context (the world of emotional energy that sprouted the work in the first place) is not appreciated or even tackled.
What good is it to citicize a poor or mediocre image for its faults, if we do not provide examples of what makes a good photograph good and a great one great? To struggle with this, to put into words what and how we see, this, to me, is the greater challenge. |
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04/20/2005 02:57:06 PM · #6 |
I've been looking at my comments and sometimes I check to see what the commentors "vote given" average is for kicks to see where they're coming from. Who they are OR who they think they are???
Some people must hate everything by the looks of things on occasion.
"not for me thanks.
Sorry" -from the Free Study(where I've gotten many positive comments, thus far, for a totaly non controversial image)
What's the point of this knuckleheaded comment. Where does it leave you? Nowhere.
I usually try to leave my critiques or advice or whatever, ONLY as an opinion. I'm sure I've been pointed a few times but I'm making an effort to be more "rosy" about things and I'm making a concerted run at using very padded language. I believe I know a few things but not all that much so I try to be guarded with whatever I toss around.
Give people a little power and too often they abuse it.
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04/20/2005 03:04:18 PM · #7 |
I have only completed six challenges (became a member the day of my first challenge) and have the following stats now:
Made: 278
Helpful: 220
I have been spending so much time giving in-depth critiques on photographs and just noticed that many people are not marking them as helpful. I went through the comments I made on the bottom percentage of my pet challenge and most people did not mark ANY of their critiques as helpful. Here they are complaining about not getting help and when they do they do not even appreciate it.
Then I looked at the top percentage where I gave 9s & 10s, and I would tell them what I loved about the picture (couldn't find anything wrong) and they didn't mark it as helpful.
So what did I learn? ... do not tell those who desperately need help what they should do to improve, and don't tell those who have everything together that they're doing a great job. |
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04/20/2005 03:06:24 PM · #8 |
This is an interesting post Brad. I have been taking a close look at the comments I make for some time, critiqueing them as you have described, and also comparing them to comments I was making when I started this crazy journey, hoping to find that I am showing some signs of learning, not just my skill levels, but also my "eye", and the ability to see and critique and look for "things". I have also gone so far as to ask a site photographer that I respect and am lucky enough to know rather well (Toocool), to take a look at my comments and "critique" them, and tell me if it looks like I am being at least kind of helpful and on track, or do I just come across as a total maroon! :-D
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04/20/2005 03:09:37 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by BradP:
As I was looking through the Abandoned Buildings challenge, I wanted to know if the comments I made were same/similar to what other members saw and commented on.
After making some 250 comments during the challenge, I was also curious if the individual found my comments helpful or not, and in some cases, was a bit disappointed that specific help to improve a shot wasn't found to be helpful...
It's real easy to give positive comments on a beautiful shot, but it is ten times harder to find the words to say a picture isn't very good and find a way to offer suggestions on ways to improve it. In many cases, I offered to help after the challenge if needed, and gave a few pointers as to where to find the excellent tutorials on the site for preparing an image for a challenge. Hope it wasn't a wasted effort... |
What matters most is not how we feel about the comments we make, but rather how the reciever feels about them.
The level of expertise of evaluators varies greatly from person to person. You may see things completely different and even opposite from other commenters. So who is right?
It is the job of the wise photographer to take the advice given by all evaluators and scope out what is right and what is wong and act on it as appropriate. My advice is not necessarily going to be better or worse than yours, but how is the photographer to know without their own evaluation?
Sometimes you may never know the impact of a comment you make. Sometimes it will trigger a dialog with the photographer that benefits not only them, but you as well.
That is just the way it is.
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04/20/2005 03:25:57 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by clarmore:
So what did I learn? ... do not tell those who desperately need help what they should do to improve, and don't tell those who have everything together that they're doing a great job. |
i would suggest another way of looking at it, carrieanne.
don't look at commenting as what you are doing for the other photographer, but what you are doing for yourself. you have no control over how others react to what you do or how it will be received. if you make it about numbers and/or acknowledgement, you'll only wind up disappointed. however, if you're able to either touch a handful of individuals in a way that helps them along, or if you're able to find something new yourself, you should consider yourself wildly successful. |
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04/20/2005 04:15:57 PM · #11 |
I hope that my comments are percieved as I meant them to be, so in that light it's always worth analysing how effective you are at achieving those goals.
I have a direct question: How do you say in a nice way that you feel an image looks like a snapshot...or as one image hit me, just now voting, I thought "hmmmmmm...looks like an upscale snapshot"?
Or
How do you comment nicely, on an image that has that, nasty flash-look...whether it was intentional or not?
Some of these type of things hit me as being so obvious, at times and I feel like I might be insulting a member by mentioning it.
Message edited by author 2005-04-20 16:16:32.
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04/20/2005 04:24:36 PM · #12 |
Brad, I just saw your post, and what is ironic is that I was looking back at my comments for the same reason you did (to see if they found them helpfull), I noticed that we commented on alot of the same images, making similar remarks/suggestions.
One that stood out, and I won't name names, we were the last 2 to comment on it, both trying to give a contrusctive comment, and we were the only 2 that Didn't get a helpfull Checkmark..
Oh Well, :) |
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04/20/2005 04:37:10 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
How do you say in a nice way that you feel an image looks like a snapshot |
"while i appreciate what you're after here, i think the execution has come a little short, leaving it feeling more like a good snapshot than a solid challenge entry. however, i think you're on the right track..."
Message edited by author 2005-04-20 16:37:24. |
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04/20/2005 04:56:34 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by buzzrock:
Brad, I just saw your post, and what is ironic is that I was looking back at my comments for the same reason you did (to see if they found them helpfull), I noticed that we commented on alot of the same images, making similar remarks/suggestions.
One that stood out, and I won't name names, we were the last 2 to comment on it, both trying to give a contrusctive comment, and we were the only 2 that Didn't get a helpfull Checkmark..
Oh Well, :) |
Again, ironically, I found myself doing the same thing last night after the results of the Abandoned Buildings were announced. And sadly, I too noticed that where I left a "constructive" comment on a photo I didn't rate particularly well, it wasn't considered "helpful" by the taker, while those comments that apparently liked the picture were.
But that's OK. I'm learning more from making the comments and finding them helpful to ME!
But, I won't deny, it kinda takes the incentive out of writing them. After all, I can learn from others without taking the time and making the effort to memorialize my thoughts in writing.
But (again) I will continue, in the hopes that maybe my small contribution can help someone make a better picture, which is what this site is all about.
I know I've learned a thing or two reading other people's comments.
ps. And BradP, thanks for your thoughts. :)
Message edited by author 2005-04-20 16:59:18. |
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04/20/2005 05:05:54 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by RolandB:
But, I won't deny, it kinda takes the incentive out of writing them. |
unfortunately, that little check mark is basically useless, because it means so many different things to so many different people. at the end of the day, you are the only one who knows how much benefit there is in the comments you've given.
Originally posted by RolandB:
After all, I can learn from others without taking the time and making the effort to memorialize my thoughts in writing.
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exactly! keep it up!
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04/20/2005 05:08:21 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by RolandB:
But that's OK. I'm learning more from making the comments and finding them helpful to ME! |
This is the often-overlooked "real" value to comments -- analyzing a photo and organizing your thoughts about it is most educational. I suggest expressing your opinion often, and don't worry too much about the check-mark ... |
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04/20/2005 05:09:40 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by buzzrock:
... and we were the only 2 that Didn't get a helpfull Checkmark..
Oh Well, :) |
I just take it as they may not have seen them as of yet or are away or something similar.
Often we comment on an image the user never knows has been. I've found pics of mine that had been commnented on a long time ago and had no idea. Even one challenge shot had a Critique Club comment and didn't know about it for some time.
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04/20/2005 05:40:02 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by skiprow:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
How do you say in a nice way that you feel an image looks like a snapshot |
"while i appreciate what you're after here, i think the execution has come a little short, leaving it feeling more like a good snapshot than a solid challenge entry. however, i think you're on the right track..." |
So, I need to lie? hehehehehe
I looked at the two flash critiques I'd left recently and while not as pleasant or reassuring as your suggestion, they weren't too bad.
I think your words would be well taken and are perfectly measured on this one. I have a little too much edge in my life and daily routine so I'd best only comment, when perfectly relaxed.(make note, to self...)
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04/20/2005 06:00:36 PM · #19 |
There needs to be 2 boxes when you submit a photo.
___open for comments
___open for critique
People generally dont want critiques they want back patting only. They think they want critiques but they dont.
Tim |
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04/20/2005 06:22:23 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by pawdrix:
So, I need to lie? hehehehehe |
well, not exactly...but a little discretion and tact can go a long ways |
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04/20/2005 06:23:46 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by skiprow:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
So, I need to lie? hehehehehe |
well, not exactly...but a little discretion and tact can go a long ways |
Agreed.
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04/20/2005 06:42:05 PM · #22 |
It appears to me that I am overall close to the majority of the other scores. If I am off I usually score higher. I did not leave alot of comments yet in the future I am going to do that so I can see how I view the photo as compared to the others.
Message edited by author 2005-04-20 18:49:04. |
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04/21/2005 01:24:49 PM · #23 |
One thing I've found is that some of the people that send comments may not have entered any challenges or have very few, if any pictures in their portfolios so that makes me wonder if I should accept their *expertise* in order to improve my photography.
But, I DO appreciate comments, no matter what may be said. |
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04/21/2005 01:31:44 PM · #24 |
| Well I am by far not a pro but I do enjoy taking shots and I know I have alot of critquing to do to mine especially after I see others work and how amazing they are,,alot of its the lighting and the angles and photoshop and the subject!!! some great stuff out there |
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04/21/2005 01:41:22 PM · #25 |
i'm new and dont feel comfortable giving advice on others photos unless its something obvious..but i love to comment on the good ones and maybe suggest things to the middle of the road photos..i have learned from comments but mainly i learn from the forums and from my DPC helper. I havent made a huge progress but i went over the 5 mark on my 7th entry, and all 3 entries being voted on now are in the mid 5's..so it's improving!
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