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04/17/2005 08:17:24 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by cloudsme:
There is a way to prove that God is real. Have faith and pray. When you find that prayers are answered, you will have your proof. |
Not such a good "proof". What if you should have faith and pray and your prayers are not answered? Does that also prove there is no God? |
In reply to the above comment; God always answers our prayers but it may not always be in the way we like it or expect it and it may not always occur at the time when we want it or expect it to occur. Its the same thing if a child asks his parent for some toy. The parent may say yes or no to the child but either way the parent has "answered" the childs request.
Having faith means not turning your back on God even if his "answer" to your prayers isnt in the exact way you expected. Thats the funny thing about faith, it will test every Christian at some time in their life. Its natural to quastion God and theres nothong wrong with it.
doulas christo |
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04/17/2005 08:31:35 PM · #77 |
Satan is Hebrew for accuser. Therefore, anyone who ran around pointing out another's faults to a higher authority was satan. When Jesus said to peter get behind me satan, he was calling peter an accuser.
Lucifer was really the bishop of Cagliari in and died around 371 AD. His main claim to fame was opposing the Orthodox church and not declaring Athanasius a heretic.
In short, mistranslation breeds false beliefs. |
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04/17/2005 09:35:52 PM · #78 |
David, as to your original post ( forgive me for the delay in responding ):
Originally posted by deapee:
Do you believe in God? |
Yes, absolutely, and in His Son, Jesus Christ.
Originally posted by deapee:
How do you know that he's real? |
Originally, because of the absolute wonder that fills His creation. I found NO alternative that could adequately explain, for example, a rose. It defies "natural selection" and "survival of the fittest". The number and arrangement of it's petals is entirely too extravagant for either of those reasons. The only rational reason I could find for its extravagance was because God created if for us as a token of His love.
Secondly, I believe He is real because of the effect He has had on my life and on the lives of others I have known "before" and "after" coming to faith. Their lives ( and mine ) have changed dramatically since accepting the offer of His grace and believing in His many promises.
Originally posted by deapee:
How can a person who is un-certain as to whether or not he is real ever really come to the conclusion that he is real -- short of him appearing infront of you and telling you he's real or praying for something like all the water in your glass to disapear and then it suddenly does. |
Scripture says "anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him." -- Hebrews 11:6
So the first step is to seek Him with the expectation that you will find Him. Your faith will increase as you experience His presence in your life. You will have peace that surpasses understanding.
Originally posted by deapee:
I know the bible fairly well -- I went through Christian schools and church during my childhood. |
That is excellent, because one of the main tasks of the Holy Spirit is to remind us of all that Jesus said and did ( John 14:26 ) - and it's impossible to RE-mind us, if we have never been mindful in the first place.
Originally posted by deapee:
Here's another one -- if you kill yourself, will you go to heaven? I can't say for certain that I agree with what I've read. People say things like you are throwing away the gift of life that God gave you, so no, you won't. Well what if that gift of life is littered with bouts of depression and possibly some other mental disfunction? Should you sit there and just live on just to some day look back at how horrible your life was and how hard you've had to work through depression, hypochondria, illness, heartache, lonliness, and fear, among other things, and you you have gained little or nothing at all from it all? |
It is not for ANY man to say whether an individual who commits suicide will or will not go to heaven. In fact, the ultimate destination of ANY individual, whether heaven or hell, is strictly a judgement of God, and He judges on the basis of one's relationship to Christ - If one HAS a relationship, they go to heaven; if they have NO relationship, they do not. A believer's actions while on the earth are only considered in the assignment of heavenly rewards, never punishments. Scripture says "Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit." -- Psalm 32:2
As for problems in life, scripture quotes Christ as saying: "In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." -- John 16:33 Take your troubles to the Lord. He says in Matthew 11:28-29 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls."
And do NOT give up. Scripture also says: "Do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him." -- Hebrews 10:35-38
May the Lord richly bless you and keep you. I'll hold you in my prayers. |
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04/17/2005 09:47:00 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by lenkphotos:
Do you think that if Satan repented, God would allow him into heaven? What about Hitler? Perhaps he repented as he was dying. Could he now be sitting at the right hand of God? Maybe it really doesn't matter one iota what we do here, so long as we say "I'm sorry; I now believe." with our dying breath. |
You are quite true...the Bart Simpson method of salvation is completely possible. One would figure that the faith will have been there all along if you were planning a deathbed confession of sin and trust in Jesus. There is also the small matter of not knowing our time of death. Not every person dies slowly with time to save their last breath for confession. And like someone already posted, the Lord will ultimately judge your soul. So whether or not you've been a Believer for 30 years or 30 seconds, He has the final say on eternal salvation. |
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04/17/2005 10:23:24 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by mpemberton:
Satan is Hebrew for accuser. Therefore, anyone who ran around pointing out another's faults to a higher authority was satan. When Jesus said to peter get behind me satan, he was calling peter an accuser. |
You are correct as far as you go, but you convey a false impression. In the OLD Testament the word is ALWAYS preceded by the definite article, so that the correct translation ( in the Old Testament ) is "THE accuser", not just "accuser". In the New testament it often appears without the definite article, as you point out.
Originally posted by mpemberton:
Lucifer was really the bishop of Cagliari in and died around 371 AD. His main claim to fame was opposing the Orthodox church and not declaring Athanasius a heretic. |
That is only ONE of several possibilities, and is a wilder conjecture than others that are more rational. The most rational "non Satan" interpretation is that Lucifer was used as a name to describe the King of Babylon, especially since he was pointed out several verses earlier.
Originally posted by mpemberton:
In short, mistranslation breeds false beliefs. |
Yes, it does.
Message edited by author 2005-04-17 22:25:27. |
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04/17/2005 11:38:14 PM · #81 |
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Himâ (Hebrews 11:6)
So if Hitler, on his death bed suddenly believed in God and repented...he's in heaven, being rewarded. And on the other hand, if I live a good life, help people, don't murder or steal, and give to the church and go to church every Sunday, and yet I don't necesarily believe that He is real (that is, I go to church just incase He *is* real) I will not go to heaven.
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04/17/2005 11:47:05 PM · #82 |
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. - John 3:16
I keep seeing this more and more...basically, if you believe, you will go to heaven. Well how can a person in a world, where all thoughts are mathematical and all things must be scientificly proven, believe? Living for God isn't enough -- if you can't believe, you will not go to heaven?
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04/18/2005 12:06:21 AM · #83 |
Originally posted by deapee:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. - John 3:16
I keep seeing this more and more...basically, if you believe, you will go to heaven. Well how can a person in a world, where all thoughts are mathematical and all things must be scientificly proven, believe? Living for God isn't enough -- if you can't believe, you will not go to heaven? |
James 1:23-27
23For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
26If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Hebrews 11:1.
1Now FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
James 2: 14-26
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath FAITH and have not works? can FAITH save him?
15If a brother or sister be naked and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so FAITH, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast FAITH, and I have works: shew me thy FAITH without thy works, and I will shew thee my FAITHby my works.
19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that FAITH without works is dead?
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22Seest thou how FAITHwrought with his works, and by works was FAITH made perfect?
23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by FAITH only.
25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had them out another way?
26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH without works is dead also.
The more I learn, the more I find it hard to believe that there cannot be a God.
If you want more details private message me.
Glen
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04/18/2005 01:14:45 AM · #84 |
Originally posted by deapee:
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Himâ (Hebrews 11:6)
So if Hitler, on his death bed suddenly believed in God and repented...he's in heaven, being rewarded. And on the other hand, if I live a good life, help people, don't murder or steal, and give to the church and go to church every Sunday, and yet I don't necesarily believe that He is real (that is, I go to church just incase He *is* real) I will not go to heaven. |
The idea of being rewarded in Heaven is something that is reallly open to some interpretation. I don't believe there will be a hierarchy of those who have done more "good" deeds, but I do believe those who have shown their faith to be real and genuine day in and day out will be rewarded. Ultimately those rewards aren't for bragging rights since we'll throwing down the rewards at the feet of our Lord in worship.
The biggest problem with your thought and others along the same line is the "goodness" of deeds. At what point does man, who is responsible solely for the crappiness of life, get to subjectively decide what is good and what isn't. Cause if I wanted to get into heaven, I'd do one "good deed" and call it a life and think that was good enough. But if we do good deeds don't we do bad deeds? And if we do bad deeds, who decides which ones are really bad that need like 10 good deeds to make up for it. If anyone truly tried to subscribe to that thought of salvation it would drive them nuts. It happened to Martin Luther shortly after he entered a Monks life. That realization that there could never be enough "good" to outweigh the bad led him to Sola Fide. The doctrine that it can only be through the grace of God that we are allowed to enter Heaven.
Is it possible that shortly before he pulled the trigger, Hitler repented of all of his sins and professed that Jesus was his Lord and Savior? Sure is. Does that mean he is in heaven partying with Moses...? That'd be between Hitler and God. |
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04/18/2005 08:51:22 AM · #85 |
Originally posted by deapee:
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Himâ (Hebrews 11:6)
So if Hitler, on his death bed suddenly believed in God and repented...he's in heaven, being rewarded. And on the other hand, if I live a good life, help people, don't murder or steal, and give to the church and go to church every Sunday, and yet I don't necesarily believe that He is real (that is, I go to church just incase He *is* real) I will not go to heaven. |
Correct on both counts. That is one of the biggest problems people have with Christian doctrine as defined in scripture. They somehow cannot abide the fact that they can't "earn" their way into heaven. But scripture is very clear:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." -- Ephesians 2:8-9
Now if one IS saved by grace, through faith, then their "works" will be taken into account:
"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -- 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
It's important to note one other thing. Belief ABOUT God doesn't count for anything. Even Satan and his demons believe ABOUT God:
"Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." -- James 2:19
"And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?" -- Acts 19:15
Perhaps, you, like the father in the story related in Mark chapter 9, can ask the Lord to help you believe:
"Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."
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04/18/2005 09:49:18 AM · #86 |
"Jesus was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in an obscure village where he worked in a carpenter's shop until he was thirty and then for three years he was an itinerant preacher.
He never had a family or owned a home. He never set foot inside a big city. He never travelled 200 miles from the place where he was born. He never wrote a book or held office. He did none of the things that usually accompany greatness. While he was still a young man the tide of popular opinion turned against him. His friends deserted him, he was turned over to his enemies and went through the mockery of a trial.
He was nailed to a cross between two thieves. While he was dying his executiners gambled for the only piece of property he had-his robe. When he was dead he was taken down and laid in a borrowed grave. Three days later he appeared before several people including his disciples-a new faith was born.
Twenty centuries have come and gone and today he is the central figure for much of the human race. All the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliments that ever sat and all the kings that ever reigned put together have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as this one solitary life."
Do i think he was just a man?
No way!
Do I think he was the son of God?
Yes with every fibre of my body! |
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04/18/2005 09:58:43 AM · #87 |
Originally posted by naomik:
"Jesus was born in an obscure village, the child of a peasant woman. He grew up in an obscure village where he worked in a carpenter's shop until he was thirty and then for three years he was an itinerant preacher.
He never had a family or owned a home. He never set foot inside a big city. He never travelled 200 miles from the place where he was born. He never wrote a book or held office. He did none of the things that usually accompany greatness. While he was still a young man the tide of popular opinion turned against him. His friends deserted him, he was turned over to his enemies and went through the mockery of a trial.
He was nailed to a cross between two thieves. While he was dying his executiners gambled for the only piece of property he had-his robe. When he was dead he was taken down and laid in a borrowed grave. Three days later he appeared before several people including his disciples-a new faith was born.
Twenty centuries have come and gone and today he is the central figure for much of the human race. All the armies that ever marched, all the navies that ever sailed, all the parliments that ever sat and all the kings that ever reigned put together have not affected the life of man upon this earth as powerfully as this one solitary life."
Do i think he was just a man?
No way!
Do I think he was the son of God?
Yes with every fibre of my body! |
Well said and to the point...DITTO for me |
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04/18/2005 10:21:42 AM · #88 |
Originally posted by naomik:
He never set foot inside a big city. |
Jerusalem was about as big as they came in those days. Whether it was a good idea to go there is a different question ... |
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04/18/2005 10:55:16 AM · #89 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
daepee's question is an intersting one. I'd be very interested to see numerical results from a poll on this site, the monitor poll is getting stale anyway. |
I would also, but only if the question were couched in more generic terms. I have a great problem with the definition of GOD as it seems to be portrayed in this forum.
It would seem that if you do not belong go a structured religion you are perceived as Godless and are doomed for all eternity.
Ray |
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04/18/2005 11:56:48 AM · #90 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
daepee's question is an intersting one. I'd be very interested to see numerical results from a poll on this site, the monitor poll is getting stale anyway. |
I would also, but only if the question were couched in more generic terms. I have a great problem with the definition of GOD as it seems to be portrayed in this forum.
It would seem that if you do not belong go a structured religion you are perceived as Godless and are doomed for all eternity.
Ray |
Ray,
There is no scriptural basis for your last statement. "Religion" is not a requirement for entrance into heaven - especially "structured" religion, which too often becomes a substitute for faith. In fact, Jesus often denounced the Pharisees for their pious actions by lack of faith. He spoke out against their "religiousness" at length in Matthew chapter 23 - here is but one statement ( verse 27 ) "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean."
According to scripture:
"If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." -- Romans 10:9-10
Nothing in there about structured religion.
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04/18/2005 04:19:41 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by RonB:
That is only ONE of several possibilities, and is a wilder conjecture than others that are more rational. The most rational "non Satan" interpretation is that Lucifer was used as a name to describe the King of Babylon, especially since he was pointed out several verses earlier. |
Yes, that is a good one, as well. Although, I find that St. Jerome's polemic Altercatio Luciferiani et orthodoxi ("The Dispute of the Luciferian and the Orthodox"). To be one of the many needles that led to Lucifer being construed as Satanic. Plus, taking into account the Latin Vulgate was written shortly after this time period, by none other then Saint Jerome.
Originally posted by RonB:
"If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved." -- Romans 10:9-10 |
Another good reason why Constantine chose Christianity over Mithras. Any truth to Constantine not converting until his death bed?
Message edited by author 2005-04-18 16:31:25. |
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04/18/2005 05:33:22 PM · #92 |
It seems like the question of god has boiled down to the definition in terms of christianity since it is the popular religion. It seems like people only want to consider the here and now when discussing religion. Christianity has been around for a comparitively small time.
If all this mumbo-jumbo about salvation and jesus being savior is true, then what about humans from the neolithic BC period before christianity and jesus even existed? Were they condemned to hell since christianity wasn't even invented yet? Hell in the christian sense wasn't even a concept then. Christianity has also assimilated pagan rituals, symbols, holidays into itself way back when it was a fledgling religion trying to convert the pagans.
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04/18/2005 05:33:56 PM · #93 |
What about the ancient mesopotamians that sacrificed women and children to their cannabilistic canaanite gods? That was the popular religion at one time and what everyone believed in. What if they were right, and everone else is wrong since their religion and gods predated christianity and jesus. What if you're going to hell unless you sacrifice your first born to Moloch?
My point is: The only constant is change and it is an inevitable force. Today we consider the ancient greek's pantheon of gods ridiculous and their rituals a farce. A few thousand years down the road, the humans of 4057 will think the same of our current religions / rituals. Don't waste your life living up to the rules and standards of "the big man in the sky". If you're going to do that, than why not worship unicorns, flying pigs, or something equally unprovable. It will make for much more entertaining fireside chat. Live for yourself, your own rules and ideals, not what was written in a book 2 thousand years ago. |
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04/18/2005 05:55:23 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by lykofos:
My point is: The only constant is change and it is an inevitable force. Today we consider the ancient greek's pantheon of gods ridiculous and their rituals a farce. A few thousand years down the road, the humans of 4057 will think the same of our current religions / rituals. Don't waste your life living up to the rules and standards of "the big man in the sky". If you're going to do that, than why not worship unicorns, flying pigs, or something equally unprovable. It will make for much more entertaining fireside chat. Live for yourself, your own rules and ideals, not what was written in a book 2 thousand years ago. |
Spoken like a true humanist / anarchist who, if the Christians turn out to be correct, could be destined for hell. If they are wrong, well you won't be around in 4057 to laugh at those ancient religions anyway. :)
If you do not believe in God (in any form), what guides your actions? Who are you accountable to? ...oh, that's right - yourself, your own rules. If I subscribed to that, I may just decide that I want your posessions and might kill you and/or your family for them if I knew I could get away with it. In fact, "Getting away with it" would be the only criteria for committing any act I so desired. You would make no moral judgements about me doing that, of course. Oh what a wonderful world it would be. :) |
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04/18/2005 06:20:18 PM · #95 |
[quote=kpriest] [If you do not believe in God (in any form), what guides your actions?
what about some ordinary common sense |
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04/18/2005 06:23:10 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by messerschmitt:
[quote=kpriest] [If you do not believe in God (in any form), what guides your actions?
what about some ordinary common sense |
Hmmm, that would be nice, if it were actually common.
Just for the sake of argument, who's interpretation of common sense? Can you give specific examples of what is common sense? |
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04/18/2005 06:29:50 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
Originally posted by messerschmitt:
[quote=kpriest] [If you do not believe in God (in any form), what guides your actions?
what about some ordinary common sense |
Hmmm, that would be nice, if it were actually common.
Just for the sake of argument, who's interpretation of common sense? Can you give specific examples of what is common sense? |
well if everybody sticks to the law as much as possible that would improve things quite a lot i guess..and these (law and order)books are supposed to be updated now and than wich i think is a big advantage
and yes the interpretation subject is a big problem when it comes to religions i noticed
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04/18/2005 06:30:38 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by kpriest:
If you do not believe in God (in any form), what guides your actions? Who are you accountable to?....You would make no moral judgements about me doing that, of course. Oh what a wonderful world it would be. :) |
Heheh. If Christianity is true, heaven probably won't want me and hell will be afraid I'll take over. Now where does that leave me? ;)
I would have moral objection to that! In a totally chaotic world where there was no religion and no laws that could be a possibility, however the unspoken "law of retribution" would perhaps deter crime. But, I am not suggesting abolishing law (anarchy does not suggest that). The law serves as a "common sense" guideline for everyone to follow.
I make my moral judgements based on what I currently believe is right and wrong. From my life experiences, how others have treated me, how I have treated others, how I want to be treated, what my parents taught me was right and wrong, etc. Religion or god is not needed for morality (although it can help to guide it for some). I also act in accordance with the laws of whatever country I am in, unless I want to face the consequences of my "wrong" actions based on what the law dictates.
Again, everything is relative and nothing is true! All we have is ambiguity and dissenting opinions. Even morality changes. The spanish inquisition slaughtered hundreds in the name of Christianity, "witches" were burned at the stake, land owners had slaves and beat & killed them. Those were the moral norms of those days, but does it make it right? Did Christianity make the wrongs right in those days? No. Who decides right besides each individual for himself? Morality will always be relative and subjective to each individual unless one joins in with the herd morality (which has the potential to either be "good" or "evil"). A majority consensus not to murder, steal, vandalize, etc. w/o just cause is a good place to start (which we currently have under the law). :)
Edited to include quote from kpriest.
Message edited by author 2005-04-18 19:23:00. |
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04/18/2005 07:14:33 PM · #99 |
I am replying to the first question in this topic....
Yesterday, I drove by a church that had a sign that read
"Without God, Life Would Make No Sense.."
I believe...I also test everything that I can and somewhere in the bible it says to do so... Maybe I should of been a scientist but I rather create art then to figure out why or what makes things change or how it got there...
It is safe to say that I believe in nothing else but to exactly what the bible says and that God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are as one....
Its more rational for me to think this as the test of faith is not in a religion but to wether or not I am a decent human being...I also think that the 10 commandments should not only be a religous thing but it should be how people should want to live...
Message edited by author 2005-04-18 19:16:30.
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04/18/2005 07:40:25 PM · #100 |
This may be interesting to you Deapee. Though itâs more of a societal analysis, it also touches on the role of organized religion. But, the other points made in the writing may hit home for you.
The Power of Delusion
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