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03/09/2005 04:40:19 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Seriously, couldn't levels or curves manipulate the white a bit to remove any sight of wrinkles? |
Yup but to do so you would loose all the information below a certain threshold, also known as " Blowing(out) the highlights". This is classically a no-no in photography where you want some detail in every part of the picture(see AA zone system), but is used as a tool all the time in graphic design to focus attention by getting rid of distractions. I think quite a few people were surprised at how far into the "Computer art" area the popular choices were, but to get the strict interpritation of very light on white that the popular vote wanted a pretty high degree of CGI work was needed. Vox populi, vox dei, the people have spoken, who am I to disagree?
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03/09/2005 04:51:43 PM · #27 |
| Curse the wretched masses! |
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03/09/2005 09:18:21 PM · #28 |
There are a lot of very good points made in this thread. I agree with most and am glad to see some things I have been thinking about for a while brought into public discussion. We, as a community, have been pretty wimpy when it comes to being clear and concise in rules and challenge descriptions. Clear and concise always have to be balanced against overly restrictive and unenforceable, but maybe it's time to let the balance move some toward more specific.
Someone said that Light on White was a hard challenge, but it had a pretty high number of entries.
A coulpe of people said that they thought the advise about not blowing highlights applied only to the subject and not to the background. Where did this idea come from? I don't see any reason to think that bit of advise applied to the subject or to the background, it applied to the entire image.
Some of us seem to think that a background that is totally blown out, washed out, off the end of the histogram, or has lost all data is a white background. I don't agree. To me that is having no background. It's a floating subject, same as a totally solid black background. It is appropriate for some shots such as high key and product shots for advertising, ebay or stock. But the challenge called for a white background, not the absence of one.
What can be done? Not much but there are a few things I think may move us in the right direction.
1. Support the SC/admins when they make a tough decision. It always disturbs me to see threads about DQs before the decision has been rendered. Public forums are not the place for DQ decisions to be debated. Afterwards is fine, indeed beneficial. And it might be a positive if there were less of the inevitable posts saying "what a shame you were dq'ed, it was such a great picture." It's a shame whenever an entry is DQ'ed whether it was getting the blue or the brown. Nice picture or not, someone has broken the rules. Maybe all the other entries would have been just as nice if they hadn't followed the rules either. Just as the voters are always right in deciding which images come out on top, so is the SC always right in deciding DQs. You can say you wish the decision had gone the other way, or you could say you don't understand why it went the way it did, but don't say they made the wrong decision. Whether you agree with the decision or not, you owe the SC your support.
2. Use your vote to affect change in the things you think are wrong.
Example: If you think too many of the ribboners and high scoring entries don't meet the challenge, start voting 2 or 3 points lower when you find an image you think dmtc, instead of taking off just one point; or, as some have said they do, refuse to give a vote higher than a 5 to any image that you think fails to meet the challenge, no matter how good an image it is. And don't be afraid to say so in comments. Saying that you scored an image low because you thought it was a shoehorn job is just as helpful as saying it needs more depth of field, or more contrast. It should make the photog think just a little harder about what's called for the next time they enter.
3. Use a bit of caution in making posts to challenge suggestion threads. Lots of things that sound like fun at first impression can turn out to be poor quality topics. Think about how it would work if it became a real challenge, and be critical. There are too many attaboys posted in the challenge suggestion threads.
4. Don't be overly concerned about how many of your comments are being marked as helpful. If you are getting all, or almost all, marked as helpful, or if most of your comments go to the images you vote high, then you are probably just giving out a lot of compliments. It's not as easy but try to give some helpful advice to the middle and bottom groups too.
Thank you for reading some of my thoughts. I'd love to read yours.
And thanks to Kylie for starting this thread.
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03/09/2005 09:36:35 PM · #29 |
It reaslly boils down to whether the Challenge Description is perceived as a starting line or a finishing line. And that's in the realm of art vs commercial art. Let me explain:
An art director for an ad agency gives a professional photographer an assignment; I need a light, ethereal shot, something "light on white", the background needs to be light, the whole thing needs to suggest "light"... This art director isn't going to be happy with a lot of these "interpretations" we have seen.
A teacher in a photography class says; Let's do light on white, watch out for blown highlights. He's interested in what the students come up with. If he wanted something more specific he'd say so. He's encouraging creativity.
In general DPC acts more as an incubator for professional photographers than it does as a playground for artists with cameras, at least in the sense of the sort of images that win the ribbons. This is neither good nor bad, it just is. That's the sort of membership we have, and the sort of collective voice they express.
Robt.
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03/09/2005 10:24:58 PM · #30 |
I think this thread went way off from what I meant to ask, which is fine. All discussion is good. Just for the record, I wasn't asking why the voting public went a certain way, etc. I really only wanted to know how such a specific word (only in my opinion) was ignored or interpreted. I thougt it was one of the more specific challenges in a while. I have always said that the votes are the votes, whatever those may be. It just seemed odd to see DPC not sticking to voting for the specific challenge terms for once. I would personally love to see them either bluntly defined or very open to a more artistic interpretation. Thanks for everyone's input so far.
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03/09/2005 10:59:03 PM · #31 |
My interpretation of that was similar to yours. I expected to see lots of pastels, for example. There was such a huge preponderance of white on white that I just went with the flow in voting.
Robt.
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03/09/2005 10:59:07 PM · #32 |
Usually I don't like too many quotes but this topic seems fitting.
"It is more noble to give yourself completely to one individual than to labor diligently for the salvation of the MASSES."-Dag Hammarskjold (1905-1961, Swedish Statesman, Secretary-general of U.N. )
...because...
"It is a besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which MASSES of men exhibit their tyranny."-James F. Cooper (1789-1851, American Novelist )
the way I see it then is when thinking on your next shot for the challenges...think to please to masses (understanding you wont understand them) or better yet...simply shoot to please yourself and none other.
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03/09/2005 11:22:26 PM · #33 |
 Should I have submitted this? I feel the shot I entered was a solid shot with no editing. I'm always confused. I will never win a ribbon because the voters want the pizzazz and I can't seem to allow myself to edit to those extremes...IMO. :D :( :D :(
Sorry, Kylie, I'm not sure if I'm following your point. I'm going to go back and read the whole thread instead of scanning.
Message edited by author 2005-03-09 23:24:46.
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03/09/2005 11:37:14 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Kylie:
I never post to threads about challenge results - they are what they are. In this case, though, I am really thrown as to how nearly all the high scoring images were in direct opposition to how I read the challenge (which I did not have an entry in - I am simply interested in undertanding). Here is a direct quote from the challenge:
" . . . subject is predominately a "light" color."
Light color to me is a pastel, a light shade, a light hue, but color. Nearly all the high scorers were absent of "color". Did most people put the most weight on the title "Light on White" and run with that? Is it a difference in languages? Is it a more technical meaning of color as in coming from light rays?
Please - no arguments. I am not challenging or protesting; I just want to undertand better. Thank you! |
Back to the question at hand.... I just counted White as a color and figured white on white would work just as fine as beige on white or any other "Light on White". It made sense to me then and now reading the Challenge description.
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03/09/2005 11:38:43 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
It reaslly boils down to whether the Challenge Description is perceived as a starting line or a finishing line. And that's in the realm of art vs commercial art. Let me explain:
An art director for an ad agency gives a professional photographer an assignment; I need a light, ethereal shot, something "light on white", the background needs to be light, the whole thing needs to suggest "light"... This art director isn't going to be happy with a lot of these "interpretations" we have seen.
A teacher in a photography class says; Let's do light on white, watch out for blown highlights. He's interested in what the students come up with. If he wanted something more specific he'd say so. He's encouraging creativity.
In general DPC acts more as an incubator for professional photographers than it does as a playground for artists with cameras, at least in the sense of the sort of images that win the ribbons. This is neither good nor bad, it just is. That's the sort of membership we have, and the sort of collective voice they express.
Robt. |
Robert, I think you have a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of dpc challenges. DPC was not founded to be "an incubator for professional photographers", nor was it designed to be "a playground for artists with cameras". The original intention was to be a meeting place and an educational tool for those new to digital photography, and those new to photography in the digital age. The challenges are intended more as a motivational device to spur people on to learn something new, and to give them a way to measure their progress; than to be a serious photography competition. Thus no real prizes. The challenge topics are supposed to be limiting of subject matter, or technique. The rules are restrictive intentionally. Together they are supposed to help us focus our efforts into areas we might not otherwise explore. As a community, we are very proud of the great progress so very many of our users have made, most of them using dpc as their primary, or only, source of photographic knowledge and information.
These are the impressions I have picked up in the time I've been here. It has worked wonders for my photography. And I've seen many gain even more than me. But you can read up on the beginnings, or ask some of the people who have been here longer than me if you doubt what I say.
The concept has worked so well as school for so many of us newbies and novices that we feel a certain obligation to maintain it for those who come after us. Not for the longtime professionals like yourself, who need no training or encouragement, but for the people who got a P&S for their birthday and want to learn. We resent, and will resist, anyone's efforts to steer it away from it's original mission.
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03/09/2005 11:59:25 PM · #36 |
Coolhar, Very well said. I agree with you 100%.
This was the norm when I first joined. I'm not sure when we got away from it. We would all benefit if we started applying it again.
2. Use your vote to affect change in the things you think are wrong.
Example: If you think too many of the ribboners and high scoring entries don't meet the challenge, start voting 2 or 3 points lower when you find an image you think dmtc, instead of taking off just one point; or, as some have said they do, refuse to give a vote higher than a 5 to any image that you think fails to meet the challenge, no matter how good an image it is. And don't be afraid to say so in comments. Saying that you scored an image low because you thought it was a shoehorn job is just as helpful as saying it needs more depth of field, or more contrast. It should make the photog think just a little harder about what's called for the next time they enter.
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03/10/2005 12:01:48 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by Marjo:
Should I have submitted this? I feel the shot I entered was a solid shot with no editing. I'm always confused. I will never win a ribbon because the voters want the pizzazz and I can't seem to allow myself to edit to those extremes...IMO. :D :( :D :(
Sorry, Kylie, I'm not sure if I'm following your point. I'm going to go back and read the whole thread instead of scanning. |
I loved your shot!! You have my comment to prove it I think. No, I was simply wondering what happened to the color part of the challenge and yours did have that bit of color along with everything else!!
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03/10/2005 12:04:31 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by bear_music:
It reaslly boils down to whether the Challenge Description is perceived as a starting line or a finishing line. And that's in the realm of art vs commercial art. Let me explain:
An art director for an ad agency gives a professional photographer an assignment; I need a light, ethereal shot, something "light on white", the background needs to be light, the whole thing needs to suggest "light"... This art director isn't going to be happy with a lot of these "interpretations" we have seen.
A teacher in a photography class says; Let's do light on white, watch out for blown highlights. He's interested in what the students come up with. If he wanted something more specific he'd say so. He's encouraging creativity.
In general DPC acts more as an incubator for professional photographers than it does as a playground for artists with cameras, at least in the sense of the sort of images that win the ribbons. This is neither good nor bad, it just is. That's the sort of membership we have, and the sort of collective voice they express.
Robt. |
Robert, I think you have a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of dpc challenges. DPC was not founded to be "an incubator for professional photographers", nor was it designed to be "a playground for artists with cameras". The original intention was to be a meeting place and an educational tool for those new to digital photography, and those new to photography in the digital age. The challenges are intended more as a motivational device to spur people on to learn something new, and to give them a way to measure their progress; than to be a serious photography competition. Thus no real prizes. The challenge topics are supposed to be limiting of subject matter, or technique. The rules are restrictive intentionally. Together they are supposed to help us focus our efforts into areas we might not otherwise explore. As a community, we are very proud of the great progress so very many of our users have made, most of them using dpc as their primary, or only, source of photographic knowledge and information.
These are the impressions I have picked up in the time I've been here. It has worked wonders for my photography. And I've seen many gain even more than me. But you can read up on the beginnings, or ask some of the people who have been here longer than me if you doubt what I say.
The concept has worked so well as school for so many of us newbies and novices that we feel a certain obligation to maintain it for those who come after us. Not for the longtime professionals like yourself, who need no training or encouragement, but for the people who got a P&S for their birthday and want to learn. We resent, and will resist, anyone's efforts to steer it away from it's original mission. |
You always write with wisdom and perspective. That is exactly what I seek from DPC. I hate all the nit-picking, which isn't what I am trying to do. I honeslty wondered what people thought they read. I wish we could go back to simply being challenged to LEARN, too, and not so much to vie for ribbons. Thank you!
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03/10/2005 12:05:15 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by aguapreta:
Originally posted by Kylie:
I never post to threads about challenge results - they are what they are. In this case, though, I am really thrown as to how nearly all the high scoring images were in direct opposition to how I read the challenge (which I did not have an entry in - I am simply interested in undertanding). Here is a direct quote from the challenge:
" . . . subject is predominately a "light" color."
Light color to me is a pastel, a light shade, a light hue, but color. Nearly all the high scorers were absent of "color". Did most people put the most weight on the title "Light on White" and run with that? Is it a difference in languages? Is it a more technical meaning of color as in coming from light rays?
Please - no arguments. I am not challenging or protesting; I just want to undertand better. Thank you! |
Back to the question at hand.... I just counted White as a color and figured white on white would work just as fine as beige on white or any other "Light on White". It made sense to me then and now reading the Challenge description. |
Thank you for a direct answer!!!
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03/10/2005 12:22:54 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by jrtodd:
Be mindful of over-exposing your highlights!
This statement didn't seem to come into play |
What are you talking about? Be mindful of over-exposing your highlights! What exactly does that statement mean? I was mindful of overexposing my highlights. I did. It does not say nor imply that you should not overexpose your highlights. Write these things in less vague English if you expect them to be understood by everyone.
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03/10/2005 12:24:06 AM · #41 |
Originally posted by Marjo:
Should I have submitted this? I feel the shot I entered was a solid shot with no editing. I'm always confused. I will never win a ribbon because the voters want the pizzazz and I can't seem to allow myself to edit to those extremes...IMO. :D :( :D :( |
I liked your entry better than this one. In fact, I think it fit the topic very well, it was in my top half dozen or so. It was one I came back to several times. I wanted to leave a comment but all I could think was attaboy-type remarks, LOL. How could anyone abandon such a beautiful animal?
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03/10/2005 12:27:42 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Marjo:
Should I have submitted this? I feel the shot I entered was a solid shot with no editing. I'm always confused. I will never win a ribbon because the voters want the pizzazz and I can't seem to allow myself to edit to those extremes...IMO. :D :( :D :( |
I liked your entry better than this one. In fact, I think it fit the topic very well, it was in my top half dozen or so. It was one I came back to several times. I wanted to leave a comment but all I could think was attaboy-type remarks, LOL. How could anyone abandon such a beautiful animal? |
Coolhar: I love the quotes you have incorporated into your signature!
Marjo: Another brilliant shot. Dignity is what comes into my mind seeing this one.
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03/10/2005 12:42:51 AM · #43 |
Thanks, Kylie. I didn't mean to post into your thread for comments.
My interpretation was that white was okay as a color but a pastel would be the optimum. Also, I felt that converted to black and white shots didn't meet the challenge.
Thanks, Coolhar. He was found as a stray. I think he just got away from someone and kept running. The first year we had him, we couldn't let him off the leash. Worked pretty hard on training. He's smart, just loves to run...it's the breed.
Okay, now I'm really off topic.
Message edited by author 2005-03-10 00:48:42. |
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03/10/2005 12:45:57 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by bear_music:
It reaslly boils down to whether the Challenge Description is perceived as a starting line or a finishing line. And that's in the realm of art vs commercial art. Let me explain:
An art director for an ad agency gives a professional photographer an assignment; I need a light, ethereal shot, something "light on white", the background needs to be light, the whole thing needs to suggest "light"... This art director isn't going to be happy with a lot of these "interpretations" we have seen.
A teacher in a photography class says; Let's do light on white, watch out for blown highlights. He's interested in what the students come up with. If he wanted something more specific he'd say so. He's encouraging creativity.
In general DPC acts more as an incubator for professional photographers than it does as a playground for artists with cameras, at least in the sense of the sort of images that win the ribbons. This is neither good nor bad, it just is. That's the sort of membership we have, and the sort of collective voice they express.
Robt. |
Robert, I think you have a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of the concept of dpc challenges. DPC was not founded to be "an incubator for professional photographers", nor was it designed to be "a playground for artists with cameras". The original intention was to be a meeting place and an educational tool for those new to digital photography, and those new to photography in the digital age. The challenges are intended more as a motivational device to spur people on to learn something new, and to give them a way to measure their progress; than to be a serious photography competition. Thus no real prizes. The challenge topics are supposed to be limiting of subject matter, or technique. The rules are restrictive intentionally. Together they are supposed to help us focus our efforts into areas we might not otherwise explore. As a community, we are very proud of the great progress so very many of our users have made, most of them using dpc as their primary, or only, source of photographic knowledge and information.
These are the impressions I have picked up in the time I've been here. It has worked wonders for my photography. And I've seen many gain even more than me. But you can read up on the beginnings, or ask some of the people who have been here longer than me if you doubt what I say.
The concept has worked so well as school for so many of us newbies and novices that we feel a certain obligation to maintain it for those who come after us. Not for the longtime professionals like yourself, who need no training or encouragement, but for the people who got a P&S for their birthday and want to learn. We resent, and will resist, anyone's efforts to steer it away from it's original mission. |
You miss my point. I was just describing the 2 "camps" as I see them, the 2 "types" of photography; the expressive vs the practical. I was not expressing an opinion in favor of one or the other. I am not trying to "change" anything, except in the limited sense that soemtimes I try to open peoples' eyes to other ways of seeing. I think the place is a wonderful resource and a worthwhile use of my time, else why would I be here?
Peace, brother.
Robt.
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03/10/2005 12:53:38 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by Marjo:
Thanks, Kylie. I didn't mean to post into your thread for comments.
My interpretation was that white was okay as a color but a pastel would be the optimum. Also, I felt that converted to black and white shots didn't meet the challenge.
Thanks, Coolhar. He was found as a stray. I think he just got away from someone and kept running. The first year we had him, we couldn't let him off the leash. Worked pretty hard on training. He's smart, just loves to run...it's the breed.
Okay, now I'm really off topic. |
I am so glad he found you!!!!!
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03/13/2005 11:28:54 AM · #46 |
| ONE OF THE FIRST LESSONS ONE IS TAUGHT AS AN ARTIST IS THAT IN TERMS OF LIGHT, WHITE IS THE PRESENCE OF ALL COLOR AND BLACK IS THE ABSENCE OF COLOR. WHERE AS, IN TERMS OF PIGMENT, WHITE IS THE ABSENCE OF COLOR AND BLACK IS THE PRESNCE OF ALL COLOR. |
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