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 09/02/2002 07:43:59 PM · #1
OK...This is my first, and probably will be my only, rant but I feel that I have to say it (even though it will probably be repeated by someone else 2 or 3 months down the road and hereafter).
As much as I would like to, I am finding it more and more difficult to contribute to some of the discussions in these forums because every time I load the main page, between 1/4 and 1/2 of the posts are new, or responses to someone's b**ch session. Either complaining about whether a photo "meets" or "doesn't meet" the challenge, not getting the desired number of comments on their photo, getting comments but loudly complaining about them because they aren't necessarily constructive, getting a 1-3 score when they feel that their photo was better, getting a 1-3 score and thinking that people who rated theirs that low didn't take the time needed to "get" their photo, and the list goes on and on.
Now, like most other people, I like to hear good comments about the things that I do with my photography and everything else that I do but I also know that for every person that gives me positive (OR negative) constructive feedback there are a host of others that will offer no kind of useful support at all. In life, most of the time, you never hear from those people as they will just keep their opinions to themselves and be done with it (we all do this though, and I am as guilty as the next person). But, because of the nature of electronic communication and open forum websites like dpchallenge, some of those people who would never tell you that your photo gets a '1' out of '10' simply because they can't relate to it or tell you that "the lighting sucks" to your face are more willing to do it in this environment. I'm not saying that it's a good or a bad thing, I'm just saying that it IS and you, as the recipient of this criticism, must have the ability to accept it in this context, absorb it, think about it, decide whether or not it is of use to you and if it's not, discard it and move on. Posting threads complaining about it isn't going to do you any good because when the voting happens the next week all people see is the next anonymous batch of photos and their same judging process will begin again. Of course the results may not be the same. You may get nothing below a 4 next time but you may also get nothing above an 8. That's just the chance and responsibility you take on when submitting a photo to be critiqued by 200 or so of your "peers" with vastly varying degrees of experience and a world of difference in tastes. If you can't take the possibility of rejection or peoples honest opinions, try exhibiting you photos to a closer group of peers: your friends and acquaintances. Sure, you won't win a prize (but you won't here either) but if you think you do good work and your friends do too then hopefully that will help your spirits and if your friends are blunt and honest you may actually get some of the same comments as you do here. :]
OK, I think I'm done. This wasn't directed to any person or persons in particular, it's just an open comment to everyone. A comment which, as more and more people join and submit here, will be repeated in the future by someone else, I imagine.
So in closing, to all those who have and continue to submit their excellent work to my 2nd favorite site (sorry, Phil Askey's DPReview has been my #1 for some time) ;], as hbunch7187 would say, "Good job and good luck with the challenge!"


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/2/2002 7:43:27 PM.
 09/02/2002 07:57:07 PM · #2
Courtenay, this phenomenon usually dies down by Wednesday evening each week. It's pretty common on Monday and Tuesday though... Everyone is pshyched about their photos at the beginning of the week.

I may start posting critique photos again this week to try to insert some other material to talk about during the week rather than who did and didn't meet the challenge :)


 09/02/2002 08:10:41 PM · #3
Please do, John.
 09/02/2002 08:12:35 PM · #4
Originally posted by David Ey:
Please do, John.

I will but I will wait until wednesday evening... they get buried rather quickly during the first few days of the week...
 09/02/2002 08:19:47 PM · #5
true that globally discussions are more about the ratings system or rants than photography.
I did not post this week and somewhere I feel a little releived ... ( And I started 2 weeks ago). I think that with this rythm .. basically monday previous week cross new challenge ... and that's it.
I have been in the chat a little yesterday and I was happy ... it was warm.
Lionel
 09/02/2002 08:24:09 PM · #6
I guess that since reality is etched on the face of Mt.Rushmore we shouldn't hold any more elections here in the USA. I subimt and vote on several sites (without complaints) but not here, not now. There is a flaw in this system. I love the idea of the challange. I have worked on it every week since I found this web site. It has helped me to improve my work, broadend my mind and expanded my vision.But I will not subject my work to the kind of judgment that occures here.Nor will I inflict my own judgmental values (by voting) on a group which seems largely to be content to do without values or standards. Rather than dismiss the constant complaining about scores and comments, consider why these complaints are so common. I'm doing it, and I have nothing to gain for the effort. Altruistic? No. I'd like to play to. But the rules are not clear enough it insure fairness...........Robert
 09/02/2002 08:57:46 PM · #7
Robert...what are these sites you keep referring to?

To be honest..I find people pretty much the same all over the world. Sites like photo-sig reward people for positive comments and punish for negative...I would say my money in a system like that would be on the positive comments.

I would like to see these other sites you speak of though..You haven't mentioned any by name or referred us to any photos of yours at these sites that may better represent your ideal. I like seeing new stuff my self :-)
 09/02/2002 09:10:25 PM · #8
I really don't want the voters here moving over to my favorites! LOL :)
 09/02/2002 09:13:32 PM · #9
Originally posted by rapsiii3:
I really don't want the voters here moving over to my favorites! LOL :)

What a juvenile reply.
 09/02/2002 09:18:44 PM · #10
Originally posted by rapsiii3:
I really don't want the voters here moving over to my favorites! LOL :)

Well, I sorta expected this response. My point is that without reference it hard to tell you apart from the trolls that frequent sites like this for brief periods of time.

I am not saying this is you. I am saying it looks like it. If you were truly interested in vesting your energy here maybe pointing us to these sites and other examples of photos etc..would clear up what has so far been nothing but rants on a messageboard.

I am sure you would feel the same as I do if you were a person like me who has been here 6 months, invested nearly 3,000 votes, comments and 19 challenges :-)


09/02/2002 09:38:23 PM · #11
I feel the same way, I gave your picture a 6, but for somebidy having a lot of activity in the forums we do not see your pictures that much.
And I feel, like hokie, that people are probably the same everywhere. Maybe the website mechanism give different results, maybe it's more 'private' and 'seclude'. But ... it's good to be evaluated by the mix we have here, just you need to balance the comments by people.
And ... 'bon vent' if you do not like this site. I like it with its inherent defaults, but there is some people here that I value. And I value the site globally.
You have the right to have the beethoven approach 'people in 100 years will understand what I am doing' but not everybody is a beethoven.
Good luck if you you submited this week.
Lionel
Lionel
 09/02/2002 09:41:24 PM · #12
Well, rapsiii, I just noticed on the Home page your name after pretty much every thread listed. So, even though you scorn this site, you do like to hang out here :)

You can reject something outright or take the good with the bad and make the most of it for yourself. I do like these challenges because they help me think "out of my own box" and some time down the line, 3 - 6 - 12 months from now, that might pay off for me somehow in the pictures I will be taking then. I also have met very nice people at this site, enjoy looking at their photographs, etc. All in all a worthwhile experience that comes to me free of charge, other than some effort on my part.

So, I just ignore the troll element that I strongly suspect is hanging over dpc (not all that unusual for the net, is it?) and ignore troll comments that don't make sense.

If the only standard you can accept is perfection then there is so little choice and, frankly, you discover that you fall short yourself of your own standard of what is acceptable.
 09/02/2002 09:54:50 PM · #13
Journey..trust me...DP Challenge is like anything else in life. It's more about what you put into it rather than what others give you in return.

I have learned here. But it's a lot like when I worked out at the gym in college years ago. I would have various friends go with me. They would last a few weeks..but once the novelty wore off but the pain continued to linger their interest waned and it was time for someone else to join me.

But one constant was me. I always went..rain or shine, snow or heat, by myself or with friends. And I progressed.

Do the same with your photography here and you will grow. If not in creativity then patience. If not patience then in technique. If not technique then in understanding of your limitations. But you will get from it what sweat and passion you put in.. I just know it. :-)


* This message has been edited by the author on 9/2/2002 9:55:12 PM.
 09/02/2002 10:26:02 PM · #14
So, now it becomes my responsibility to prove that I am not a troll.What can I say but...? "Gee oot of me swamp ya damn taklin' doonky!" :) If you have followed my rantings then you either know what I am ranting about or you are content with the status quo. It makes nothing. While never shy, I wouldn't drop my pants just so you could point and laugh. There is an old addage,"Cast not your pearls befor swine." Solomen, I think. Ancient wisdom. And while you were reading my posts did you happen upon my praises of the positive virtues of DPC? Seem of little value to dwell on them, but I have mentioned. I wouldn't bother if DPC weren't worth the effort. It is odd that you can deal with the irratic scoring methods yet find offense with a strident critque of the methodolgy. I have learned a lot from this web sit and these discussions. Maybe not what was intended......
 09/02/2002 10:34:06 PM · #15
Originally posted by rapsiii3:
-----I will not subject my work to the kind of judgment that occures here.Nor will I inflict my own judgmental values (by voting) on a group which seems largely to be content to do without values or standards. ...........Robert


BYE BYE Robert
 09/02/2002 10:35:20 PM · #16
What I was referring to rapsiii3 is your constant reference to other websites almost as paragons of virtue that we DP Challenge folks should aspire to.

I was simply asking for specific reference, rather than a generic "other".

Also, if these other sites are so inspiring in their design and function..why wouldn't you want to share them with your "friends" at DPChallenge?

I highly doubt these sites would be news to most of us..as many of us are not new to photo web sites and many here (not me) participate at "other" sites.

Listen..I cut to the chase. And pearls cast aside and all..I think a simple question deserves a simple answer rather than poetic dancing about. :-)
 09/02/2002 10:42:36 PM · #17
Robert (rapsiii3).....I notice that you seem to be hitting on the same theme week after week. Not sure how the voting system works, not sure if it's fair, etc. I also notice that you've posted 42 messages to forums with your comments (but only voted on 168 photos since mid-August). As I recommended to you last week, you might find it useful to pick up a basic statistics book to help you understand the concept of a bell curve. The rating system you find on DPChallenge isn't perfect -- but you can learn many new techniques and ideas by participating here. If your primary goal is to post messages in the forums to knock the way this website works, then you probably need to find another hobby.
 09/02/2002 11:07:06 PM · #18
You are all very right. I am a troll. I don't belong here and my skills aren't up to your standards. In the course of the last day I have spent with you, you have convinced me that I have no real right or reason to be here. And I thank you for that. I've eaten so much cabbage and broccoli today (because of the current challange) that even I think I stink! I'll be quiet for a while now, and stew. A thick vegeatable stew.
Sorry to have intruded into private territory.
 09/02/2002 11:21:41 PM · #19
A site is what you make of it. There are no laws saying that you need to visit or read the forum postings. The site is free, so you can come and go as you please without feeling like you have to get your money's worth. Submit, don't submit. If you don't like the comments, don't submit. If you don't care for the postings, don't read them. If you don't like the site, go somewhere that you like better. No one can make you feel bad without your consent--you know that.

I can tell you that if you complain more than your share and then you leave, you will probably not be missed too much.

Have a lovely evening everyone.

Or don't. Up to you.
 09/02/2002 11:24:58 PM · #20
Originally posted by rapsiii3:
You are all very right. I am a troll. I don't belong here and my skills aren't up to your standards. In the course of the last day I have spent with you, you have convinced me that I have no real right or reason to be here. And I thank you for that. I've eaten so much cabbage and broccoli today (because of the current challange) that even I think I stink! I'll be quiet for a while now, and stew. A thick vegeatable stew.
Sorry to have intruded into private territory.

The whole issue seems kind of silly to me. If the right pics are winning with final averages of 7 instead of 10, so what?

We all vote by different methods and to different standards and we all have different opinions. It's impossible to get everyone to vote according to standards that one person or group thinks is right. And even if we could do, what would be the point? All we would need is 1 person to vote and decide the winner since we would all agree with him/her.

Oh well... since you're not talking any more I know you won't reply. ;)

Mark
 09/02/2002 11:33:55 PM · #21
Originally posted by iggy386:
If the right pics are winning with final averages of 7 instead of 10, so what? ... ;) Mark

EXACTLY! if you'd feel better getting a 4 instead of a 1, so be it - the higher-ranked entries will still be just that ... higher-ranked
 09/02/2002 11:44:50 PM · #22
15 minutes until MOANDAY is over for this week :)
 09/02/2002 11:50:36 PM · #23
Originally posted by Yellowpeep:
A site is what you make of it. There are no laws saying that you need to visit or read the forum postings. The site is free, so you can come and go as you please without feeling like you have to get your money's worth. Submit, don't submit. If you don't like the comments, don't submit. If you don't care for the postings, don't read them. If you don't like the site, go somewhere that you like better. No one can make you feel bad without your consent--you know that.

I can tell you that if you complain more than your share and then you leave, you will probably not be missed too much.

Have a lovely evening everyone.

Or don't. Up to you.


Comment: Trite platitudes. Dependant on pop psychology for impact.Phrases intending such common sentiments as "Go elsewhere" "No one can hurt you..." "It is what you make it" are nothing more than hollow recitations of common blather. You should also study the differance between a complaint and a critique. I'll give you an 8 for attempting to stay on subject, a 3 for presentation, and a 1 for the vailed insult. That is a 4.0 and I didn't even like what you said.
 09/03/2002 12:02:12 AM · #24
Originally posted by rapsiii3:

Comment: Trite platitudes. Dependant on pop psychology for impact.Phrases intending such common sentiments as "Go elsewhere" "No one can hurt you..." "It is what you make it" are nothing more than hollow recitations of common blather. You should also study the differance between a complaint and a critique. I'll give you an 8 for attempting to stay on subject, a 3 for presentation, and a 1 for the vailed insult. That is a 4.0 and I didn't even like what you said.


speaking of blather
 09/03/2002 12:02:19 AM · #25
rapsiii3 - now now.

This thread should not get any more personal than it already has.
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