Music/Band photography - DPChallenge Forums

02/10/2005 05:16:08 PM · #1

Hi guys,
I know that it's a no-no to take photos of established bands and sell the photos straight to the public... what I don't know is whether most photographers get a royalty every time an artist sells one of their images? Or is it usual for photographers to sell their photos outright to the band? On a related note, I take a lot of photos of local up-and-coming bands who are very laid back about such issues. I've been refusing to sell photos of them to anyone but band members... is this daft? Do I have the right to sell them to anybody? If I sell them local bands, should I stipulate that I get royalties from any photos they sell on to their fans?

GoldBerry

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

02/10/2005 05:22:16 PM · #2

Hmm well anytime I've gotten to shoot large established bands I had to be shooting for a paper and sign a release from the record label saying I'd only sell to that one paper and they wouldn't be published anywhere else.
As for local up and comers, I have separate deals with each of them. But basically I charge them a flat rate and give them all the negatives after they've signed a contract saying anywhere they're used I get a written credit and that I can use them for my own portfolio and website. Again, that's for poorer local bands. More established local bands get the same deal but charged way more. I'm just not into dealing with the bullsh*t that usually comes with photography - I'd rather get the money, get the credit, and cut 'em loose. :-)
That's all I can tell you!

Message edited by author 2005-02-10 17:24:25.

sfboatright

Canon EOS-20D

02/10/2005 05:31:57 PM · #3

Are you guys talking about shooting them live at performances (editorial type shots), or just posed promotional shots?

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

02/10/2005 06:21:10 PM · #4

Talking about live performance shots, but my most urgent question remains unanswered, which has been prompting by a non-band member wanting to buy some shots I took of a local band. Do I sell them to the band asking for royalties each time they sell a copy, or sell the photos outright to the band, or bypass the band and sell the photo straight to the fan? As I said, this is for a very laid back and grasroots band.
Edit: I agree Lori... I could do without the business side of things!

Message edited by author 2005-02-10 18:22:23.

magicshutter

Nikon D70

02/10/2005 06:23:56 PM · #5

It depends solely on the terms you've agreed upon with said musicians and/or their respective management and/or labels.

magicshutter

Nikon D70

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

02/10/2005 06:25:58 PM · #6

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

I still stand with what I said before.. It's no different than a typical model release. If you own the copyright to that shot it's one thing, but you do not own the copyright to their likeness.

Now if said shot is taken on public property and you have not 'trespassed' to attain it, then you could sell a gillion copies of it hands clean.

Message edited by author 2005-02-10 18:27:00.

GoldBerry

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

02/10/2005 06:27:12 PM · #7

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

Do I sell them to the band asking for royalties each time they sell a copy, or sell the photos outright to the band, or bypass the band and sell the photo straight to the fan?
Edit: I agree Lori... I could do without the business side of things!

Like I said, I sell them the negatives and all the rights with the "fine print" that I can still use them to promote my biz (for live performances and for other posed/promo work). AFter that it's up to them who gets their shots and for how much, I don't deal with any of it - basically because personally I don't care. It's worked thus far.

02/10/2005 06:30:29 PM · #8

Originally posted by magicshutter:

Are you sure about this? Are you telling me that if I take a photo of a local band at a local venue, I can sell those photos straight to fans bypassing the artists? Is this legal? I thought this wasn't legal, because it certainly doesn't work for bigger established bands in this way. Is it to do with the venue? If it's a local pub, does that mean that I can sell the photos, as opposed to an arena or a festival?
Please only answer if you KNOW the answer!
Cheers,
Bob

02/10/2005 06:31:54 PM · #9

Talk to them If they are a laid back group perhaps they don't want to mess with selling the photos themselves. Maybe you could print up a hundred or two good prints and get them to sign them and then cut them in for a percentage of the profit. You have to deal with each band on a case by case basis especially when working with un-signed bands.

One word of advice: Get releases whenever you can and no matter what you end up doing in this situation get the details of the agreement signed on paper. It will save all parties involved potental problems down the road.

02/10/2005 06:34:39 PM · #10

Originally posted by nsbca7:

Good idea, it seems sensible to sell them myself with the band's permission. I'd still like to know the legal position though for future reference. Anyone?

02/10/2005 06:40:17 PM · #11

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

Originally posted by magicshutter:

Now if said shot is taken on public property and you have not 'trespassed' to attain it, then you could sell a gillion copies of it hands clean.

Are you sure about this? Are you telling me that if I take a photo of a local band at a local venue, I can sell those photos straight to fans bypassing the artists? Is this legal? I thought this wasn't legal, because it certainly doesn't work for bigger established bands in this way. Is it to do with the venue? If it's a local pub, does that mean that I can sell the photos, as opposed to an arena or a festival?
Please only answer if you KNOW the answer!
Cheers,
Bob

If the band is playing in a public park or you see them walking down the street the the images are yours to use for a variety of uses, but not for advertising purposes. If it is in a club, a pub or a local pay to enter arena you do not have that right without express permission from the producers and/or the band.

Edit: Again, if you are dealing with un-signed bands getting that permission is usually very easy to obtain because the band is probably hungry for all the free exposure they can get. Buy them a round of beers between sets and briefly let them know what your intentions are. And have a pen handy.

Message edited by author 2005-02-10 18:46:46.

Simms

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

02/10/2005 06:46:28 PM · #12

I have recently been attempting some band photography, basically I just get them to sign a standard model release form. Most of the time they are happy to do that, especially local bands, cant speak for signed bands though.
Check out the website at //www.the-binary-refinery.co.uk

magicshutter

Nikon D70

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

02/10/2005 06:57:02 PM · #13

Originally posted by nsbca7:

Originally posted by BobsterLobster:

Originally posted by magicshutter:

Now if said shot is taken on public property and you have not 'trespassed' to attain it, then you could sell a gillion copies of it hands clean.

Are you sure about this? Are you telling me that if I take a photo of a local band at a local venue, I can sell those photos straight to fans bypassing the artists? Is this legal? I thought this wasn't legal, because it certainly doesn't work for bigger established bands in this way. Is it to do with the venue? If it's a local pub, does that mean that I can sell the photos, as opposed to an arena or a festival?
Please only answer if you KNOW the answer!
Cheers,
Bob

Edit: Again, if you are dealing with un-signed bands getting that permission is usually very easy to obtain because the band is probably hungry for all the free exposure they can get. Buy them a round of beers between sets and briefly let them know what your intentions are. And have a pen handy.

True, alot of the time if you do a great job they'll ask to use them!

sfboatright

Canon EOS-20D

02/10/2005 10:06:21 PM · #14

Originally posted by nsbca7:

My understanding is that unless the venue explicitly forbids photography, it is still considered a public place and the pictures would therefore fall under rules for editorial images.

Or am I missing something?

Message edited by author 2005-02-10 22:07:29.

02/10/2005 10:44:28 PM · #15

Originally posted by sfboatright:

Originally posted by nsbca7:

If the band is playing in a public park or you see them walking down the street the the images are yours to use for a variety of uses, but not for advertising purposes. If it is in a club, a pub or a local pay to enter arena you do not have that right without express permission from the producers and/or the band.

My understanding is that unless the venue explicitly forbids photography, it is still considered a public place and the pictures would therefore fall under rules for editorial images.

Or am I missing something?

It is and isn't a public place. They don't have to explicitly forbid it, it could be a policy of either the establishment or of the band to not allow photos. It is always best to ask and well advised to get written permission. But not to worry, if you are not supposed to be taking pictures in a particular bar or club, explicit or not, someone will quickly let you know within 2 minutes of wipping out that big black 20.

sfboatright

Canon EOS-20D

02/10/2005 11:21:44 PM · #16

Yeah...it's kinda hard to hide a D20 packin' 300 mil glass...haha....I recently got some shots at Mercy Lounge in Nashville (and I was even standing on a chair for part of the show), so I figure, if someone had a problem with it, they'd have told me.

Of course, the only thing I'll be advertising with these shots is myself. ;)

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

02/11/2005 06:17:57 AM · #17

Thanks for the feedback.
There still seems to be some ambiguity though,
say the club/pub has no policy on this issue,
does that mean the band has any right to have a policy on what can happen to their photos? I wouldn't act in any way that would upset any bands, but I'd really like to know the legal standpoint for future occasions.

dpdave

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III

02/11/2005 06:38:46 AM · #18

I'm kinda curious about the legal grounds as well. Bear in mind too that Bobster is not in the US...The UK may have a different set of particular privacy laws on this subject.

02/11/2005 09:30:43 AM · #19

Originally posted by dpdave:

Bear in mind too that Bobster is not in the US...The UK may have a different set of particular privacy laws on this subject.

Ooooh. Quite, I'm sure.

Message edited by author 2005-02-11 11:07:25.

02/11/2005 09:40:00 AM · #20

Righto, I've asked one of the best music photogs in the business (who's going to be my mentor... excellent!) about this, and I can do what I like with any photos of any band, unless photography has been prohibited, or I've signed anything to the contrary.
Thanks for the help everyone!

GoldBerry