| Author | Thread |
|
|
01/10/2005 11:59:51 AM · #1 |
I'm having a hard time with voting. When I see a ton of the same thing out there, I can't get my mouse to click above a 5. I think a lot of these photos deserve less than a 5 but I'm trying to not vote lower than a 4 unless it's an extreme case of not meeting the challenge and no appeal whatsoever. Let's take flowers for instance... And I'm sorry to offend anyone but are the people that take pictures of flowers for ever challenge really that creativly challenged? I'm definately not a great photographer and my last few challenges have failed miserably in my oppinion (around 5's), but I'm just sick of seeing the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER...
Am I the only one who feels this way?
Also,
My voting style is like this:
3 and less = if you don't meet the challenge, your photo has no appeal, the technical stuff stinks, and/or the picture is too small
4 = If you meet the challenge but your photo DOESN'T have appeal
5 = If you meet the challenge and your photo HAS appeal
6 and higher = If you meet the challenge and your photo has appeal ranging from better then normal to extreme appeal
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:04:03 PM · #2 |
| I think it's only fair to downvote shots that are the same as a lot of other shots in the challenge, or are trying to mimic winning shots from previous challenges. My scale is about the same as yours, except it starts at 5. Every once in a while it's a 4 for a phone cam type of picture or something offensive or something that i think shouldn't be shown to anyone. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:06:29 PM · #3 |
When I find myself getting annoyed at seeing the same things over and over, I stop voting and come back later with a fresh attitude.
I believe the primary purpose of this site is educational. Flowers and pets and kids are legitimate subjects for photographs, and can often meet the challenge topic.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:13:35 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by joebok:
I believe the primary purpose of this site is educational. Flowers and pets and kids are legitimate subjects for photographs, and can often meet the challenge topic. |
Sure, but creativity is perhaps more important for me while evaluating the appeal of a photo than the technical execution. Shoot something original, and i would vote it higher than a dozen of perfectly executed shots of something boring.
Don't get me wrong, though, if there is a dozen of broken light bulbs, but one stands out because of a creative twist on presentation, it will not get voted down because there is 11 other light bulbs. But it's gotta stand out.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:17:33 PM · #5 |
| Yuroasocolov, i completely agree with you. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:19:43 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by yurasocolov:
Sure, but creativity is perhaps more important for me while evaluating the appeal of a photo than the technical execution. Shoot something original, and i would vote it higher than a dozen of perfectly executed shots of something boring.
Don't get me wrong, though, if there is a dozen of broken light bulbs, but one stands out because of a creative twist on presentation, it will not get voted down because there is 11 other light bulbs. But it's gotta stand out. |
I understand what you are saying - but in my style of voting what you are talking about would be differences between 7+. If an adequate picture that meets the challenge is presented, I give it a 5 no matter how many other ones just like it I've seen. I give extra points for being unique/creative/wow-ish, I don't deduct them for people that like to take pictures of flowers or their kids.
When I get tempted to give out 4's for no good reason is when I'm getting burned out and so I quit and come back later.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:29:55 PM · #7 |
You know that this is a site of hundreds of photographers from around the world and your original ideal might be the same as some one elses. You might take a picture of a relic coming out of the ground and what do you see while you are voting, alot of the same. Man that sucks but that is the nature of this site. I don't down grade because of the same thing over and over. Because of that reason.
I agree that when you are getting tired of seeing the same thing, that you should walk away and come back with a fresh mind. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:32:49 PM · #8 |
I vote on the picture at hand regardless if I have seen 10 similar pictures. If I find myself getting distracted because of the subject, say 10 pets in a row, I just skip them and come back later. First I determine imo if the photograph meets the challenge and yes that is an [opinion] but I believe that is the first step because after all this is a challenge. Then I determine imo if the photograph is bad, average, good, great, excellent. The reason I donât vote down a picture because of frequency is because if anyone of us was to look at our portfolio, I bet you could find 100 similar photographs in the photo gallery. But with that said I do take in account for creativity. So I guess everyone has there own way of voting and there is no right or wrong way unless someone troll votes.
My 2 cents.
EDIT TO ADDI asked an arts professor about this subject when the flag thing came up. His analogy was, and Iâm going to quote him the best I can remember. âScott, if you wanted to purchase a luxury vehicle like a Lexus RX 330 and you have seen 10 of them today all pretty much the same. Would you expect the dealer to lower the price just because you have seen 10? NO. If you were a dealership owner would you lower your price just because a customer had seen 10 of them today? NO. In other terms, vote on the picture because of its differences to the other 9 not because there are 10 of themâ. End quote.
Message edited by author 2005-01-10 12:50:15.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:41:39 PM · #9 |
if only everyone could photograph something that has never been photographed before, and be the only one to ever photograph it, these folks might not give out so many low votes for perfectly well taken shots.
average means - it's average. not below average... whether it is a unique idea or not - if the photograph is average it gets an average vote. if it is unique it scores higher than the other similar shots. but the average shots still are average - meaning 5-6 range on a 1-10 scale - not a 2 or a 3 for lack of uniqueness.
i wonder sometimes about the logic here.../
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:41:43 PM · #10 |
I vote on every single picture. I use to give out 1's but then I've read how other people are voting and I raised my lowest score. I don't vote less because of the same photo over and over again but if it's just average and not creative at all but meets the challenge, it's getting a 5.
I feel taking photos of whatever you want and put it in your profile is completely ok. I even have 1 flag in my profile and I hate seeing pictures of flags.
I won't enter the following in any challenges:
Candles, flowers or flags. However, this doesn't mean that I won't take pictures of them and post them in my gallery.
These things are too over-done. I also think water drops, dew on branches, and things dropping into water or liquid to make them splash is over-done as well, BUT these particular over-done shots can come out VERY cool, so I still like them.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 12:59:05 PM · #11 |
photomayhem: I don´t really agree with you on this subject about giving almost indendical pictures a lower score. However, I totally respect your opinion on your voting habits but I think that is besides the point.
As long as you are consistant in voting, you are doing this site a great service. What I am trying to say is that I believe that consistency is the key here, as long as everybody is consistent with their votes, it will all even out in the end anyway and at least logically that would make the best pictures will win in the end. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 01:56:18 PM · #12 |
I have a slightly different take on it. Instead of penalizing a photo by voting it downward because it has a common subject such as flowers or pets, I tend to hesitate to vote it exceptionally high. The vast majority of entries fall between say, 4 and 7, regardless of subject. If there's a pic of a flower or kid, I don't lower the score from what I think it deserves within that range. To me, the 4-7 range represents the vast majority of average to good shots.
However, to be exceptional, scoring 8, 9, or even 10, then there has to be something "extra". Not to say that the winning shot can't be a common subject (evidence arpita's winning CANDID shot of the kid with the umbrella), but having a common subject such as a flower, etc. makes it just that much more difficult to stand above the crowd.
--minor edit for clarity & typo correction--
Message edited by author 2005-01-10 14:05:50. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 05:09:51 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by yurasocolov:
I think it's only fair to downvote shots that are the same as a lot of other shots in the challenge, |
There is an inherant problem with this approach though .....
Which shots get penalised, just the third, fourth, fifth etc, or would you then go back and downgrade the votes on previous versions of a similar shot. To be fair with this system you'd have to, otherwise it is simply a matter of luck as to which photo you viewed first.
I am sure many people do vote that way, a lot of them subconsciously, but doubt many would go back and adjust previous votes.
I don't actually agree with that approach for duplicate entries as when you submit you have no idea what others submit, and what you think may be a very original idea may unfortunately be something 5 other people also thought was original.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 05:19:04 PM · #14 |
| Yes. Well show me another damn corkscrew and it better have some very original twist. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 05:46:32 PM · #15 |
i have some agreements here.. the quote from an art professor in SDW's post makes sense - as does soup's comment that has ANYTHING really never been photographed before? i would also like to point out that, while i may have some sort of plant/piece of nature in this challenge, this is pretty much the first time i have ever taken a shot like this - if you really insist on voting down because of others looking the same, at least don't do it because you assume that i have taken this shot a million times for many challenges. in the end, we all have our own voting methods - just voicing my difference in approach to the one mentioned here.
i think there can also be a difference with say, a pet shot and an extremely well done pet shot.. i have nothing against pets, but people who assume that their snapshot of a pet or flower deserves a ribbon just because it's a likeable subject should also pay attention to detail and everything. else.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 06:00:47 PM · #16 |
| It is completely unfair to vote down a flower/pet/baby image because there are 10 other flower/pet/baby images. This might be the first time that the photographer submits this type of image, this might be the photographer's personal study/ job to take these shots, and they are trying to get better, we are all trying to get better. I vote on each image individually based on its merits with regards with the challenge at hand. I would never penalize a photo because there are other photos with the same subject. Each is different, each was taken by a different person, different camera in different places. Each has its merits and dismerits. Please look past the subject of the photo and look at the photo itself. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 09:37:14 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Natator:
There is an inherant problem with this approach though .....
Which shots get penalised, just the third, fourth, fifth etc, or would you then go back and downgrade the votes on previous versions of a similar shot. To be fair with this system you'd have to, otherwise it is simply a matter of luck as to which photo you viewed first. |
All of them get penalized about one point for lack of creativity. Unless one really stands out in which case it doesn't get penalized. But penalizing doesn't put them below average, they just go back to the 5 stable, along with about 80% of other shots. They just don't get their 6-7-8.
Originally posted by Natator:
I am sure many people do vote that way, a lot of them subconsciously, but doubt many would go back and adjust previous votes.
|
I do pretty often. Voting is seldom a one-pass thing.
Originally posted by Natator:
I don't actually agree with that approach for duplicate entries as when you submit you have no idea what others submit, and what you think may be a very original idea may unfortunately be something 5 other people also thought was original. |
I guess i would define original as 'noone else thought about that' then. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 10:12:28 PM · #18 |
I couldn't agree more with the thread title!
First thing I want to get out there is that on a scale of 1-10, 5 is average. If a photo is technically and compositionally average, it gets an average score.
Someone mentioned crappy cameraphone images -- they're generally neither compositionally pleasing nor technically advanced: this is a bad photo.
Here's where I get defensive and sometimes guilty, so I have to suggest that we examine the wording on the rating scale: on the right it says "GOOD" and on the left it says "BAD". If it's a bad photo, I feel that it should be scored on the left end of the scale.
The stuff about "I never give ones" and "I only score above 5" reminds me in some pecular way of the rhetoric I was hearing in schools in the late '70s and early '80s -- "He's not a bad kid, just misunderstood." Buddy, if the kid burns down an apartment building, he's a bad kid. If it's a forgettable, fuzzy, flat snapshot taken with a cameraphone, it's a bad photograph.
On the right end of the scale (i.e. above 5) I like to use the criteria of A) do I ADMIRE this shot for technical or asthaetic reasons, and/or B) how would I like to live with this photo every day? The more positively I respond to those questions, the better I score.
I guess that this scoring and, more to the point, commenting, has been on my mind a lot recently: I made a comment that was taken entirely wrong by the recipient -- and I'll admit that, upon re-reading, I could have been clearer. I was rewarded with a couple of very hostile emails, and they called me an a-hole. It's just really bummed me out. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 10:41:51 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by alanbataar:
I guess that this scoring and, more to the point, commenting, has been on my mind a lot recently: I made a comment that was taken entirely wrong by the recipient -- and I'll admit that, upon re-reading, I could have been clearer. I was rewarded with a couple of very hostile emails, and they called me an a-hole. It's just really bummed me out. |
I get that. I guess anybody who comments on some of the less admirable images is going to get crappy PMs or emails. It has an effect of discouraging me from adding comments at all. If I got a three I would want to know why. I'm stiil going to give a three when it needs one comment or not.
What I think is poor ethical conduct is when they PM me to complain while the chalenge is still in the voting phase, sometimes telling me why I should reconsider and give them a better score. Stop begging. It took years to get to the level of proficiency that I have reached and just because we got a new $500 digital camera for christmas does not make us H C Bresson. We all have to pay our dues.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 10:42:57 PM · #20 |
I disagree with one point in the original post and in alanbataar's post above. On a scale of 1-10, actually 5.5 is average. So when the original poster says that he gives a 5 to a photo that meets the challenge and has appeal, then I think that's unfair because it's mathematically a below-average vote. If a photo does meet the challenge and it has appeal, then that makes it an above-average photo, which means it should get at least a 6, in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 10:49:28 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by nsbca7:
Originally posted by alanbataar:
I guess that this scoring and, more to the point, commenting, has been on my mind a lot recently: I made a comment that was taken entirely wrong by the recipient -- and I'll admit that, upon re-reading, I could have been clearer. I was rewarded with a couple of very hostile emails, and they called me an a-hole. It's just really bummed me out. |
I get that. I guess anybody who comments on some of the less admirable images is going to get crappy PMs or emails. It has an effect of discouraging me from adding comments at all. If I got a three I would want to know why. I'm stiil going to give a three when it needs one comment or not.
What I think is poor ethical conduct is when they PM me to complain while the chalenge is still in the voting phase, sometimes telling me why I should reconsider and give them a better score. Stop begging. It took years to get to the level of proficiency that I have reached and just because we got a new $500 digital camera for christmas does not make us H C Bresson. We all have to pay our dues. |
This is why we re-instituted the option to make you comments anonymous during the voting. Set your Preferences to make your comments anonymous, and no one will be able to respond to your comment until the voting is over. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 10:55:21 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
I vote on the picture at hand regardless if I have seen 10 similar pictures. If I find myself getting distracted because of the subject, say 10 pets in a row, I just skip them and come back later. First I determine imo if the photograph meets the challenge and yes that is an [opinion] but I believe that is the first step because after all this is a challenge. Then I determine imo if the photograph is bad, average, good, great, excellent. The reason I donât vote down a picture because of frequency is because if anyone of us was to look at our portfolio, I bet you could find 100 similar photographs in the photo gallery. But with that said I do take in account for creativity. So I guess everyone has there own way of voting and there is no right or wrong way unless someone troll votes.
My 2 cents.
EDIT TO ADDI asked an arts professor about this subject when the flag thing came up. His analogy was, and Iâm going to quote him the best I can remember. âScott, if you wanted to purchase a luxury vehicle like a Lexus RX 330 and you have seen 10 of them today all pretty much the same. Would you expect the dealer to lower the price just because you have seen 10? NO. If you were a dealership owner would you lower your price just because a customer had seen 10 of them today? NO. In other terms, vote on the picture because of its differences to the other 9 not because there are 10 of themâ. End quote. |
Must say this makes most sense to me, accept that I rarely give a 3 nowadays, a picture must be really bad to get that. But every picture is worth an individual consideration and evaluation.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 11:05:51 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by PhilipDyer:
I disagree with one point in the original post and in alanbataar's post above. On a scale of 1-10, actually 5.5 is average. So when the original poster says that he gives a 5 to a photo that meets the challenge and has appeal, then I think that's unfair because it's mathematically a below-average vote. If a photo does meet the challenge and it has appeal, then that makes it an above-average photo, which means it should get at least a 6, in my opinion. |
Just a question, maybe I'm missing something, but how is 5.5 the actual average of a 1 to 10 scale? Maybe simple math is going over my head today lol.
|
|
|
|
01/10/2005 11:14:29 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by SDW65:
Just a question, maybe I'm missing something, but how is 5.5 the actual average of a 1 to 10 scale? Maybe simple math is going over my head today lol. |
Considering the number "5", there are four possible scores less than that, and five possible scores above it. A "5" is less than the centerpoint of 1 through 10. Or do the math: add up 1, 2, 3, up to 10, and they total 55. Divide by 10 to get the average.
That being true, I have begun to lean towards "6" as the score I give to a decent photo that meets the challange in my judgement. |
|
|
|
01/10/2005 11:22:03 PM · #25 |
Personally I love to look at images. From each one I learn something. The bad ones teach me to avoid making them. However, each photographer approaches the same subject differently and so I give each image its due respect. I do not tire of seeing similar images. All flower shots are not the same and this applies to all. There is nothing new under the sun.
This is a site that depends on its members to vote and to do so requires the little attention span to reach a decision. If everyone assumes this attitude which at certain times does become an obligation, we simply help ourselves and those who we are voting on.
Like everything else in life, voting is an obligation. I make a it a learning experience. |
|
