Website for those that don't like Pres. W.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

01/11/2005 04:30:55 PM · #26

the politics of fear...

Message edited by author 2005-01-11 16:35:18.

bbower1956

Canon EOS Rebel T6s

01/11/2005 05:01:44 PM · #27

Originally posted by Olyuzi:

But the Bush administration didn't go to war with Iraq to save lives. They said it was for WMDs and because of the ties of Hussein with al Qaeda, neither of which turned out to be true. Of course, those were just the public relations media spin to put fear into the minds of Americans fresh after the attacks of 9/11 so that they would back the administration's desire to invade Iraq. (Talk about "politics of fear.") And we all know the reasons for that desire.

Right. Blood for Oil or some other liberal nonsense. Go back and read what Bush said since it is obvious you did not listen. The liberation of the people was one of the main reasons. Even Clinton/Gore supported regime change.

Getting rid of WMD which everyone including St.Bill knew he had was one reason as well. The fact that we have not found them does not mean they did not exist. And we are only talking a suitcase full to wipe out thousands. If you've ever lost your car keys in your house then you know how hard it could be to find a suitcase in an area the size of California.

It is not like we just popped in on them uninvited. We gave them quite a bit of time to hide them in Syria.

The proof of no WMDs was on Saddam. Not the US. Compliance with the UN was all that was needed and he did not. What good is the UN if there is never any resolve to enforce resolutions?

Check out the second picture.
//www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/phantom_fury/flash.htm

Message edited by author 2005-01-11 17:02:48.

bbower1956

Canon EOS Rebel T6s

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

01/11/2005 05:11:32 PM · #28

Originally posted by nsbca7:

Politics of Fear

No, that was not sanctioned by CBS. I took the picture.

If you don't like a country where the people can speak out against the current government, if you don't like my oppinion, live with it or move to Russia. I heard that type of thinking was all the rage over there. This is my country and I am not going anywhere.

"All foreigners are suspect. We are told on a regular basis to be vigilant and look for suspicious activities â�� to spy on our neighbors. Habeas Corpus has been suspended. The rights we once enjoyed of freedom of expression and freedom of speech are now being repressed and the act of exercising these rights are now often referred to as acts of treason."

I have never been told to 'spy' on my neighbor. Now if my neighbor pulls in in a Ryder truck and starts loading it with chemical fertilizer, then I think I will err on the side of safety and pick up the phone. Are his rights being violated?

What rights to free speech have been repressed? Are you refering to the recent ACLU lawsuits over the holiday's or the teacher being removed for teaching the Declaration on Independance?

Acts of Treason? When? Who?
Am I the only one who has never heard of any one being tried for treason in this country in the past 3 years? I don't even think Johnny Walker was not tried for that.

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

01/11/2005 05:26:58 PM · #29

Originally posted by bbower1956:

Ugh...

Politics of Fear...This had to be sanctioned by cBS. Don't let facts get in the way of good story. You whining libs will be the first ones whining when we are attacked again. You'll be pointing fingers at the leaders saying "Why didn't you do more to make us safe?"

Its funny how we all agree we have to help out the tsunami victims in that great tragedy caused by nature. BUT when it comes to saving millions killed in Iraq by one man, you libs feel should have done nothing. Or worse, you try to lessen their plight by saying it wasn't so bad.

I find it hilarious how people think this "war on terror" can be won by big balls George Bush and the oh powerful US military. As if one day they will track down the last terrorist and BANG there are no more.

Nobody ever asks why terrorists target the US either. Bush likes to give the ridiculous answer "they hate us for our freedom". Unless by 'freedom' he means "being the bully of the world because we can and it serves our interests".

Also the whole "Saddam is a bad bad man" argument being suddenly brought up is also ridiculous. During the 1980's the US and Saddam were best of friends, during the time when he was gassing his people, building chemical weapons and projecting external power against his neighbors.

Donald Rumsfeld and Saddam 1983:

Learn about the US and Saddam relationship more via declassified US documents here: U.S. DOCUMENTS SHOW EMBRACE OF SADDAM HUSSEIN IN EARLY 1980s DESPITE CHEMICAL WEAPONS, EXTERNAL AGGRESSION, HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES

To be blunt, anyone who does not realize that oil runs this global soceity and economy and that we would still be riding horses into battle without the stuff, and that the Middle East sits on the majority of it in the world, should refrain from discussion on these subjects.

Again, without oil the US would not be the world super power. The US will do what it takes to remain the worlds super power.

Message edited by author 2005-01-11 17:27:17.

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

01/11/2005 05:52:06 PM · #30

Would you please supply any statements made by Bush that support your assertion that they invaded Iraq for the purpose of liberating the Iraqi people. I have found Colin Powell's speech to the UN in February of 2003 prior to the war and with the exception of just a couple of sentences where he brings up the brutal dicatorship of Hussein, which I do not disagree with, the jist of going to war with Iraq was about WMDs and links with Islamic terrorists. Never did Colin Powell ever say that we were going to war to liberate the Iraqi people. Colin Powell's speech to the UN

If you are referring to the picture of the Sarin gas viles discovered in Fallujah in the USA Today link you provided, were independent tests done on those viles to confirm that they in fact are sarin? Also, how do we know that they belonged to Hussein? A picture without any supporting information doesn't mean much and just lends itself to speculation. Could you find any elaboration on that discovery?

Originally posted by bbower1956:

Originally posted by Olyuzi:
But the Bush administration didn't go to war with Iraq to save lives. They said it was for WMDs and because of the ties of Hussein with al Qaeda, neither of which turned out to be true. Of course, those were just the public relations media spin to put fear into the minds of Americans fresh after the attacks of 9/11 so that they would back the administration's desire to invade Iraq. (Talk about "politics of fear.") And we all know the reasons for that desire.

Right. Blood for Oil or some other liberal nonsense. Go back and read what Bush said since it is obvious you did not listen. The liberation of the people was one of the main reasons. Even Clinton/Gore supported regime change.

Getting rid of WMD which everyone including St.Bill knew he had was one reason as well. The fact that we have not found them does not mean they did not exist. And we are only talking a suitcase full to wipe out thousands. If you've ever lost your car keys in your house then you know how hard it could be to find a suitcase in an area the size of California.

It is not like we just popped in on them uninvited. We gave them quite a bit of time to hide them in Syria.

The proof of no WMDs was on Saddam. Not the US. Compliance with the UN was all that was needed and he did not. What good is the UN if there is never any resolve to enforce resolutions?

Check out the second picture.
//www.usatoday.com/news/graphics/phantom_fury/flash.htm

Message edited by author 2005-01-11 17:55:16.

01/11/2005 06:01:01 PM · #31

MadMordegon,

To respond individually to your comments...

"I find it hilarious how people think this "war on terror" can be won by big balls George Bush and the oh powerful US military. As if one day they will track down the last terrorist and BANG there are no more."

- What should we do? Act like Canada and let them do what ever the hell they want to who ever the hell they want? It's 'hilarious' and even more annoying to be asked to do something, then be brow beaten for how we do it. What do you suggest? What is your answer? I ask because you seem to believe that you know exactly what's going on?

"Nobody ever asks why terrorists target the US either. Bush likes to give the ridiculous answer "they hate us for our freedom". Unless by 'freedom' he means "being the bully of the world because we can and it serves our interests". "

-Don't have to ask, they tell the world on there little internet broadcasts. We don't behead their citizens when demands are not met. We took all the correct channels before doing ANYTHING. The UN held up our entry when Saddam didn't adhear to the UN's orders.. When they finally did let the inspectors in, they bobbed and weaved around just about everything. If you assume Nuclear Weapons have to be massive you're wrong. Just because someone (or some nation) doens't have giant missles doesn't mean they are not a threat. It wouldn't only take a suitcase for small pox to take out half or more of a nation. That can be easily moved. The only mistake the US made was listening to the UN talk about channels, and deadlines.

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

01/11/2005 06:03:37 PM · #32

Originally posted by ericlimon:

the politics of fear...

This photo is intrieging. Could you provid some details???

Olyuzi

Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7

01/11/2005 06:37:42 PM · #33

I think it would have been wiser had the US decided not to invade Iraq and concentrated on Afghanistan, where they had al Qaeda on the run, but instead decided to shift their resources into Iraq where no terrorists were, allowing al Qaeda to regroup and get stronger.

NO wmd's were found in Iraq after the war, as reported by Hans Blix, El Faraday and Scott Ritter. Iraq had been "declawed" in the 90s and was a threat to only their own people. None of Iraq's neighbors were worried about a Iraqi invasion or attack. By invading Iraq, the US has now created many more terrorists that the US now has to deal with, and we have squandered monies and resources, not to mention human lives. Over one hunderd thousand innocent Iraqi citizens and over 1000 American lives have been lost.

Why have the Islamic terrorists attacked the US?

Originally posted by magicshutter:

What should we do? Act like Canada and let them do what ever the hell they want to who ever the hell they want? It's 'hilarious' and even more annoying to be asked to do something, then be brow beaten for how we do it. What do you suggest? What is your answer? I ask because you seem to believe that you know exactly what's going on?

Don't have to ask, they tell the world on there little internet broadcasts. We don't behead their citizens when demands are not met. We took all the correct channels before doing ANYTHING. The UN held up our entry when Saddam didn't adhear to the UN's orders.. When they finally did let the inspectors in, they bobbed and weaved around just about everything. If you assume Nuclear Weapons have to be massive you're wrong. Just because someone (or some nation) doens't have giant missles doesn't mean they are not a threat. It wouldn't only take a suitcase for small pox to take out half or more of a nation. That can be easily moved. The only mistake the US made was listening to the UN talk about channels, and deadlines.

01/11/2005 06:48:08 PM · #34

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Like I tell Quebec: feel free to leave.

I tell Quebec that I desperately want them to stay.

Thanks Mike!

bdobe

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

01/11/2005 06:56:44 PM · #35

MagicShutter,

You make several assumptions that are simply false; this here, however, is the most glaring one:

Originally posted by magicshutter:

It's 'hilarious' and even more annoying to be asked to do something, then be brow beaten for how we do it.

Are you suggesting/assuming that Bush & Co. were asked by the international community and/or by Iraq to invade the country? If you recall, the U.N security council was split on this issue; also, the U.N.s WMD inspector concluded that there were "NO" WMDs that posed a threat to the U.S. or to our allies (read Hans Blix reports and book on the issue); and, as you might recall, there were millions of people across the globe that protested the Bush & Co. invasion of Iraq -- why, even the Pope does not consider the war justified.

As to your broader point, that the Bush & Co. Terror War is being administered judiciously, fairly, and with proper oversight; well, again, you're simply wrong. Just look at how the JAGs Corp has come out in opposition to Judge Gonzales nomination to be the next Attorney General. Judge Gonzales, a Bush & Co. insider, is credited with writing the memos that -- some say -- are at the root of the Abu Gahib and Guantanamo detainee abuse cases.

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

01/11/2005 07:06:24 PM · #36

Originally posted by grandmarginal:

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:

Originally posted by GoldBerry:
Like I tell Quebec: feel free to leave.

I tell Quebec that I desperately want them to stay.

Thanks Mike!

No problem...Quebec is one of the most beautiful provinces both in landscape and in culture.

Sure, some of the politics bugs me but what can you do? It's still the beautiful province!

01/11/2005 07:21:56 PM · #37

Originally posted by ericlimon:

Good stuff here:
An important message to all good republicans and democrats from the President of the United States

Thanks for the link Eric!

This is my favorite...

Americans, I will retract what I've said before. You guys have a good reason to be affraid. Your country really is in danger. It's being occupied by the ennemy. They even have their offices at the white house.

"Don't be fooled... Not all facism looks like Adolf Hitler".

I don't mean to create any fights with any individuals here. These are just opinions I happen to share...

I spoke before about Georges Orwell's 1984... And I've come to accept the fact that war is inevitable and that the world could not function without it. It's the ugly side of human beings. It validates the good and the good... validates the bad. Without one, the other wouldn't exist.

Germany had politicians that succeeded in fooling its own people... And here's how they did it as told by one of the main figure of nazi Germany...

â��Why of course the people donâ��t want war. . .
That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.â��

- Hermann Goering
Nazi SS Officer, on or about 18 April 1946
Nuremberg War Crimes Trial

Sounds familiar?

mrorange002

Canon EOS-5D

01/11/2005 08:02:03 PM · #38

"War is young men dying, and old men talking" - unknown

01/11/2005 08:03:38 PM · #39

Originally posted by magicshutter:

Simply put, the US is an aggressor around the world constantly. Americans donâ��t know this because US media hardly reports it and Americans donâ��t search for the information. Most of the US media is controlled by about 22 corporations, that includes thousands of newspapers, TV stations and book publishing companiesâ�¦ 22. When a company owns something, it runs how they want it to run. How often do you hear news of the revolutions and militia civil wars within South American countries? Yet they happen all the time, much of it at this point because of the interference from US multinational corporations and US military interests and the "Columbian drug war".

(as a side note, what are the 2 biggest producers of the worlds most lucrative drugs? Columbia (cocaine) and Afghanistan (opium/heroin) and the US have troops in both, yet the drugs still flow in great mass. Hmm)

The US is also the #1 arms dealer around the world directly or indirectly, through countries like Saudi Arabia and Israel. So when civilians are blown up in 3rd world countries they know its American bombs, bullets and mines, it says it right on the sides of the ones that donâ��t blow up, the mines and the military equipment, like the US attack helicopters in Israel that fire on civilian Palestinian houses. The US spends more money on military and weapons of destruction and killing than almost every other country in the world combined.

If Bush or the US government were interested in helping oppressed peoples of the world why not start with our good friends the Saudiâ��s? Women are pieces of property in Saudi Arabia, regularly beaten and killed by there owners (husbands). My girlfriend grew up in Saudi Arabia as an ex Pat in an American oil refinery and has 1st hand experience in seeing the women treated like property. One of her Saudi neighbors beat his maid to death and was never arrested or tried. It is standard in Saudi Arabia. And George Bush calls Prince Bandar his â��personal friendâ��. I mean after all, 15 of the 18 hijackers on 9/11 were Saudi Arabian, NONE were Iraqiâ��s.

Again I will point to what I had said in my previous post that seems to miss everyone. Oil is power and men in power donâ��t want to give it up.

Now as far as what can be done to correct these situations? I donâ��t have all of them but some are obvious:

#1 Stop relying on the Middle East for oil. That means stop wasting oil. That means Americans need to take responsibility for how wasteful they are. It is beyond logical comprehension that the US which only has 4.7% of the worldâ��s population consumes 33% of the worldâ��s resources. Americans are often called â��consumersâ�� for a reason.

We went backwards from the 70â��s when we had our first â��oil crisisâ�� and instead of continuing the trend of smaller cars and less wastefulness, we began the trend of huge gas guzzling SUVâ��s. Now this is not the whole problem, but the US uses more gas on automobiles than any other individual thing. So that could be a start. Soccer moms donâ��t need to drive massive tanks that get 12 miles to the gallon at best.

Overall itâ��s the mentality of Americans. It is one of arrogance and the idea that we deserve the right to do what we want. Americans are very disconnected from nature as a whole. Now before I get slammed for not including other countries in this mix; yes other countries need to do their part. But we are talking about America here and America is the #1 culprit. And being the #1 culprit and #1 power, itâ��s our duty to be the #1 fixer of these problems.

I could go on forever on this but ill stop with saying overall; WAKE UP.

01/11/2005 08:14:25 PM · #40

I can't believe you are sitting there typing such sterotypical crap. You include me when you say "Americans". Nothing you said comes even close to how I am. I think it's rediculous for you to sit there, trying to explain to me what my mentality is. You may not intend to judge on a personal level, but I'm sick of reading what you say about us (Americans) as a whole. You sterotype a nation the same way Hitler did the Jewish people. The fact that you are not killing people is the only difference. It's really hard to believe how judgemental you are. I agree with free speach so preach on, but know how rediculous you sound when you talk like that.

01/11/2005 08:20:25 PM · #41

Originally posted by magicshutter:

Truth is often times ugly. Take your personal feelings out of the equation and re-read my post. It was not a personal attack against you so you shouldnâ��t take it that way and then disregard the meat of my points.

Message edited by author 2005-01-11 20:25:05.

thatcloudthere

Canon EOS-1D

01/11/2005 08:23:02 PM · #42

Originally posted by magicshutter:

I've stayed out(mostly) and won't get involved in the American version of politics, but this statement needs to be addressed.

It's not stereotype to present facts about the amount of oil guzzling and product consuming that we do in the USA and Canada. To compare him to a Nazi negates any value your argument could have had...it's in poor taste and it's ridiculous.

I don't normally get worked up about this stuff but quit throwing around the horrors of what began in the late 30's like they're a handy political debate tactic.

Message edited by author 2005-01-11 20:23:25.

01/11/2005 08:24:28 PM · #43

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

Originally posted by magicshutter:
I can't believe you are sitting there typing such sterotypical crap. You include me when you say "Americans". Nothing you said comes even close to how I am. I think it's rediculous for you to sit there, trying to explain to me what my mentality is. You may not intend to judge on a personal level, but I'm sick of reading what you say about us (Americans) as a whole. You sterotype a nation the same way Hitler did the Jewish people. The fact that you are not killing people is the only difference. It's really hard to believe how judgemental you are. I agree with free speach so preach on, but know how rediculous you sound when you talk like that.

Truth is often times ugly. Take your personal feelings out of the equation and re-read my post.

Say what you will, to me your just a hate-monger. that in itself is fine, but you paint it for the world to see. I'll ignore your posts from now on.

01/11/2005 08:25:15 PM · #44

Originally posted by magicshutter:

The same way American government (not you) stereotype middle-east people...

Originally posted by magicshutter:

The fact that you are not killing people is the only difference...

Yeah! And that's a huge difference!!!

01/11/2005 08:34:50 PM · #45

Originally posted by grandmarginal:

Originally posted by magicshutter:
I can't believe you are sitting there typing such sterotypical crap. You include me when you say "Americans". Nothing you said comes even close to how I am. I think it's rediculous for you to sit there, trying to explain to me what my mentality is. You may not intend to judge on a personal level, but I'm sick of reading what you say about us (Americans) as a whole. You sterotype a nation the same way Hitler did the Jewish people.

The same way American government (not you) stereotype middle-east people...

Originally posted by magicshutter:
The fact that you are not killing people is the only difference...

Yeah! And that's a huge difference!!!

you can come back at me with 'your government does this, and that, and the other" but I don't give a crap what they do. I'm tired of reading threads bad mouthing me.

You think one day hitler said "let's kill a whole race"? No, it started with this kind of crap. It's like saying it's ok to be a skin head, or in the KKK as long as you don't kill people.

Mattel Barbie Photo Designer Digital Camera

01/11/2005 08:49:21 PM · #46

I'm sorry you see things that way magicshutter.

nsbca7

01/11/2005 08:59:50 PM · #47

Originally posted by MadMordegon:

I'm sorry you see things that way magicshutter.

Ditto.

01/11/2005 09:04:15 PM · #48

Originally posted by magicshutter:

you can come back at me with 'your government does this, and that, and the other" but I don't give a crap what they do...

That's why you can't debate well with the subject...

No hard feelings!

-Simon