Input from D70 & 20D/ 10D Sports/ Wildlife Photogs

12/18/2004 06:32:29 PM · #1

Pete (username Ganders) and I are happy owners of a Nikon D70 which we really enjoy using.

Some of you might remember our dithering between Canon and Nikon back in April when we bought the camera before a 2 month trip to Africa. Why did we choose it over the Canon DSLRs?

1) We really like the size/ shape/ feel of it.
2) We find the layout of buttons and controls very easy to use - they really make all the settings we want to change most frequently incredibly easy to change

Well, we're reconsidering.

First off let me say that we're happy with the results from the camera and we still find it a joy to use.

But we have one major problem and it is a problem indeed because of our preference for wildlife and travel photography. The problem is the difficulty the longer lens has with autofocusing. The lens fails to find focus on objects that really oughtn't present any problem. And when it fails it loudly cycles back and forth through the entire focal range in it's pathetic search. And never finds it. And once it's gone into this abysmal focusfailure mode it doesn't seem to be able to break out of it. We can switch the camera off and back on and point it at something that it would normally be able to focus on and it just can't. Meaning we have to flick into manual focus which is often too slow for the kind of subjects we're talking about. It does eventually sorts itself out but usually not in time.

Now I had totally assumed it was the lens itself because a) it's a very cheap lens and b) we don't experience this with the wider kit lens at all.

But on our recent trip to Antarctica there were a number of professional photographers in the crew (two of whom were Nikon users) who were able to share a lot of input with us.

And one of them expressed that he has had the same problem with a variety of different Nikon bodies (film ones, as it happens) and using a variety of lenses, including much better ones than ours and that, as far as he's aware, it's down to the way that Nikon autofocus works.

This threw me completely as I was assuming that investing in a better lens would resolve the problem. I did try out a fellow passenger's 80-400 VR lens but not for long enough to establish whether it also behaved this way on occasion.

Another point is that both these Nikon professionals discussed their reasons for choosing Nikon and their happiness with their kit BUT both said if they were buying now they'd buy Canon. One said when his current kit wore out (as it does under the kind of heavy duty use he puts it to) he'll go to Canon.

They felt the quality of lenses, cameras and images was equivalent but that Canon are now quicker to release new innovations (which I was aware of when we were choosing our camera and which was one of the main reasons for our dilemma when choosing the Nikon).

The Nikon has already paid for itself because our justification for it was as follows. I estimated I might take about 100 rolls of film on that 2 month trip and the cost for buying and developing the film (including high res scanning) was about Â£1k. Instead we bought the Nikon before we went.

So if we do change now it's not like we need to cry about wasting money.

So my questions to you all (EVENTUALLY!!!) are whether you have any information/ experience about this Nikon focus problem and what you can tell me about the performance of the 20D (and also the 10D) in similar situations.

Not interested in studio situations but in situations where a failure to focus immediately means missing the shot.

THANKS!

Message edited by author 2004-12-18 18:35:38.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

12/18/2004 06:51:17 PM · #2

Kavey, on my 1D Mark II I have had NO problems whatsover focussing on low contrast subjects with a 300mm f/4L IS lens attached with a 1.4x extender. And since the 20D is considered the little brother of the 1D MII, I would expect similar focussing performance. I cannot explain the Nikon focussing problem, and since the pros you spoke to have a similar problem with their high-end lenses, I cannot blame your lens. On my Rebel it did hunt a bit with a 70-300mm el-cheapo zoom lens but does not on the 300mm L lens. One solution is to pre-focus manually in the general area where your subject will be and then autofocus when the subject gets in the frame. With Canon USM lenses you can manually focus without setting it to manual, Nikon must have a similar mechanism. Try the pre-focussing method.

Natator

Canon EOS-5D

12/18/2004 06:51:54 PM · #3

I can't help you really here except to comment on a couple of difference between the 10D and the 20D, having owned both (and same lens set in each case).

1) The 20D is definitely faster

2) The 20D has 9 auto-focus points. I presume this makes for more accurate focussing, but I tend to use center spor focusing anyway, so can not confirm this.

3) Having upgraded from the 10D to 20D I could not be happier. The 10D is a supberb camera, but the upgrade to the 20D was a bigger jump than the specs had suggested (in my mind). The faster fps is also very valuable for wildlife. IF looking at these I would strongly recommend going the 20D path.

Anything I add beyond that is just conjecture.

By the way, how did you manage to get to Antartica, it is my ultimate dream in life.

12/18/2004 06:58:20 PM · #4

Thanks for your replies, both.
Food for thought.

Natator, I emailed you.
Kavey

ganders

Canon EOS-40D

12/18/2004 07:00:02 PM · #5

Originally posted by doctornick:

One solution is to pre-focus manually in the general area where your subject will be and then autofocus when the subject gets in the frame. With Canon USM lenses you can manually focus without setting it to manual, Nikon must have a similar mechanism. Try the pre-focussing method.

Sadly, half the time even if you're pre-focused pretty close the D70 has a habit of wandered off to both ends of the focus to convince itself that you really were in the right area... /sigh

12/18/2004 07:11:47 PM · #6

Originally posted by ganders:

Originally posted by doctornick:
One solution is to pre-focus manually in the general area where your subject will be and then autofocus when the subject gets in the frame. With Canon USM lenses you can manually focus without setting it to manual, Nikon must have a similar mechanism. Try the pre-focussing method.

Sadly, half the time even if you're pre-focused pretty close the D70 has a habit of wandered off to both ends of the focus to convince itself that you really were in the right area... /sigh

Hmm, is your D70 set to choose the focusing point automatically or have you chosen the centre focusing point?

12/18/2004 07:12:42 PM · #7

Usually we leave it on centre focusing point because the predictive stuff is too annoying...

12/18/2004 07:16:27 PM · #8

Hmm then I have no explanation other than it's the D70's fault...Have you called Nikon technical support about this?

12/18/2004 07:18:17 PM · #9

No. But I think I will. Good call. I didn't even think of it.

12/18/2004 07:25:56 PM · #10

Originally posted by Kavey:

No. But I think I will. Good call. I didn't even think of it.

LOL, I can see your palm print on your forehead.. :D

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

12/18/2004 07:30:40 PM · #11

It's so hard to know what the truth of it is really.

The kit lens gives us no problems BUT it's a wider lens and also much faster (and newer design) and if it did cycle back and forth through the focal range whilst focusing we wouldn't notice so much as long as it did lock focus pretty fast (which it does).

The 70-300 is a G series lens which is older and slower anyway so... (someone just told me it's apparently just a badged Tamron but I don't know if that's actually true or what difference it makes).

I think it's just a case of trying to decide whether the focusing system generally on the Nikons is a touch slower. For most it's not an issue for but for our main content it really is.

Whilst I'm totally not one to just blindly do as I'm told (hence buying the Nikon in the first place despite the fact that more people opt for Canon) I can't ignore the advice of several successful professional photographers (two of whom are currently using Nikon kits) that they strongly feel Canon does have the edge.

But I dooo like the control interface of the D70.

Aaagh!

I think I will follow the advice to talk to Nikon and see if I can get more feedback from Canon 20D users (who use their cameras on moving targets where focus speed is an issue).

THANKS AGAIN and please keep any advice coming.

Brad

Olympus OM-D E-M1

12/18/2004 07:35:18 PM · #12

For what it's worth to anyone following this thread, I spoke to one of the head photographers for the paper, and though he is presently using a Nikon D1X, said if he had to do it over, he would be going with Canon. The amount of Nikon equipment he now has makes it financially dumb to switch.
Just passing on what a Pro would do today..

12/18/2004 07:39:07 PM · #13

Thanks Brad, that's what both the guys I spoke to said.
One knows his equipment (including lenses) will wear out (he's a photojournalist, often in war zones and his equipment has a hard life) and he's definitely going to Canon when that happens. The other said he'd do so too if he didn't have the investment already in Nikon.

eaglebeck

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

12/18/2004 07:39:18 PM · #14

I have a Canon 10D and useboth the IS 70-200 and 100-400 Canon zooms. The 70-200 will autofocus with both a 1.4X and 2X extenders. The 100-400 has to be manually focused. I do not know the reason the 100-400 will not autofocus. You must do some long range shooting and thought you would be interested in this. I did not learn about this until I had purchased the lens.

Great city,London. I lived in Harrow for 2 years while I was stationed at 3rd U.S.Air Force Headquarters in Ruislip.

12/18/2004 07:44:00 PM · #15

Eaglebeck do you mean that the 100-400 won't autofocus at all?
That's a different problem - it's probably just a lens which isn't compatible with the autofocus system of the 10D. If it's an old series lens that might be the case? If it's a new lens, I don't know what the problem might be...

12/18/2004 07:44:39 PM · #16

Originally posted by eaglebeck:

The 100-400 will autofocus with an extender attached if it is used on a 1-series camera.

vontom

Canon EOS-20D

12/18/2004 07:46:07 PM · #17

Re: the 100-400.. the max aperture that can be autofocused (meaning a lens witha smaller max aperture will not autofocus) is 5.6. The 100-400 has a max aperture of 4.5-5.6. Adding a teleextender to that at the long end brings it to a max aperture of one-stope smaller than 5.6, hence no autofocus. If the 1.4x extender were used at the wide end of the 100-400 (if it even will work) you would just barely have the necessary open aperture.

12/18/2004 07:48:05 PM · #18

Originally posted by vontom:

The 100-400 with a 1.4x extender will autofocus with my !D MII

vontom

Canon EOS-20D

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

12/18/2004 07:49:50 PM · #19

the 1-series is a whole different beast. I don't know how the autofocus works there.

Brad

Olympus OM-D E-M1

12/18/2004 07:51:15 PM · #20

Wish I knew how to setup and use a Canon 10D.
One was offered to me to use for the wrestling tournament on Monday & Tuesday in Reno.

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

12/18/2004 07:56:12 PM · #21

Originally posted by BradP:

Wish I knew how to setup and use a Canon 10D.
One was offered to me to use for the wrestling tournament on Monday & Tuesday in Reno.

Easy, you have shot SLR's in the past...it's the same thing... ;) In a pinch just put the camera in "green" mode and shoot...:)

Brad

Olympus OM-D E-M1

12/18/2004 08:05:51 PM · #22

Originally posted by doctornick:

Easy, you have shot SLR's in the past...it's the same thing... ;) In a pinch just put the camera in "green" mode and shoot...:)

Wish it were just that easy...
I have the big Oly flash and I use it off-camera (no red eye) and prefer to shoot in Aperature Priority (F2.8) mode to control the DoF. Without a dedicated TTL flash and backup battery, sticking with my Oly with the battery grip, flash bracket & FL-40 is working well and VERY familiar. This is a case of using a lesser, but familiar camera is the better way to shoot a once-in-a-lifetime event - my son & his long-time friends and teamates are Seniors this year and this is their one shot at a National event. (Team currently ranked 11th in the USA).
Have Oly, will travel...

eaglebeck

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

12/18/2004 09:53:35 PM · #23

Thanks for all the info on the 100-400 autofocus problem. I had called Canon about 6 months ago and they said it would not autofocus. Evidently, they are not up to speed. I guess I have to try some new things. Thanks again

vontom

Canon EOS-20D