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03/06/2003 12:06:33 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by welcher:
Threads like this are enough to make me forget my anti-war, pro-world outlook, and start wondering why we don't tell the rest of the world to shove it the next time they want our military to fix their problems. (Note that I'm not saying Iraq is one of those times.) |
Well said. I think the US people are slowly realizing this, Welcher. We get nothing in return most of the time for what we do for the World except snide remarks from semi-communist countries and people. |
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03/06/2003 12:13:39 AM · #52 |
I wouldn't go that far. I have no problem with socialist-type countries, and I LOVE Europe, particularly Germany. And I think most governments realize all that America does for them.
However, the current administration's policies has, I think, caused Joe Average non-American to really backlash against America. While I think the root causes are valid, I think a lot of people take it way too far. |
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03/06/2003 12:17:24 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I also highly recommend the following two articles, likely under-reported by Dan Rather and your local newspaper:
When Hussein Was Our Ally
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This is common knowledge that we supported Saddam in the early 80's. But there's no point at all to it because we supported Iraq because Iran (like it says in the article) was preceived as a greater threat to the US at that time.
I'll admit that bringing up the arguments that Bush does now (about gassing the Kurds, etc), that we ignored back then, is a little hypocritical, but it's understandable.... We are looking after our country's national security (now and back then) and there's nothing wrong with that. It's what the government is supposed to do!
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03/06/2003 12:18:21 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by welcher:
I wouldn't go that far. I have no problem with socialist-type countries, and I LOVE Europe, particularly Germany. And I think most governments realize all that America does for them.
However, the current administration's policies has, I think, caused Joe Average non-American to really backlash against America. While I think the root causes are valid, I think a lot of people take it way too far. |
sometimes it has to be taken too far just for us to get heard. i really don't mean to make enemies here...i for one love the states. i plan on living there somwday. but, i feel that it's possible to love the country and at the same time disagree with the administration. this distinction is not often clearly made. |
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03/06/2003 12:25:06 AM · #55 |
I agree. I love my country, and I don't care for the administration. But Hoogie's hystrionics, and, to a certain extent, zador's comments are the kinds of things that I don't think are fair.
America does immeasurable good in the world. No other country even comes close. Unfortunately, due to our power (said power I would GLADLY give up), we have the capability of doing bad things on a large scale, too.
The beautiful thing is, in two years, we have a chance to change things, if they still need to be changed. |
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03/06/2003 12:27:26 AM · #56 |
Hmmmm. Do I want to enter this conversation. What lessons have I learned.
1) [While in the US and other (currently) security conscious places] Take caution photographing bridges.
2) A spirited conversation among friends is always a fun, learning experience.
For an interesting article on the current state of liberties in the US, buy this week's New Yorker magazine (cover date 3/10/03) and read the 'Lost in the Jihad - The dropped case against John Walker Lindh'. Facinating reading for both US and non-US citizens. |
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03/06/2003 12:29:41 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by jimmythefish:
i really don't mean to make enemies here...i for one love the states. i plan on living there somwday. but, i feel that it's possible to love the country and at the same time disagree with the administration. |
I don't consider anyone enemies, but instead just people with different opinions. You're right, you don't have to agree with the "administration" to love your country... In fact I didn't like the Clinton administration for example. :) You're right, you do have to question the government at all times. They are serving US not the other way around (obviously).
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03/06/2003 12:45:06 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by ChrisW123:
I'll admit that bringing up the arguments that Bush does now (about gassing the Kurds, etc), that we ignored back then, is a little hypocritical, but it's understandable.... We are looking after our country's national security (now and back then) and there's nothing wrong with that. It's what the government is supposed to do! |
Well, I think that keeping it a secret from US citizens is more than a little hypocritical. Please explain to me why we have the right to defend our national security, but the Iraqis (or anyone else) do not. Mr. Hussein has not, to my knowledge, expressed any intent to attack the USA. By contrast, the US has been expressing its intent to invade and overthrow the government of Iraq for months.
I recall no pope, archbishop, imam, lama or rabbi declaring the USA God's chosen nation, bound to impose His will on a resisting world. I admit Mr. Bush was annointed rather than elected, but I fervently hope it was through strictly political machinations and not Divine Intervention.
The longer we continue to restrict freedom in the name of national security, the less moral authority we have, since we are ourselves rejecting those very values we purport to defend.
Bottom line is there is no such thing as "national security" any more, only world security, and until the US fat cats are willing to accept something closer to their fair share of the world's resources, we will always be subject to violent action by the desperately disadvantaged.
By the way, noticed gasoline prices lately? Think Mr. Bush's and Mr. Cheney's friends in the oil business are hurting the way a minimum wage communter is? Why, I bet they can stall this out until it's too hot to invade, and keep prices sky-high all summer. But at least I'm not cynical... |
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03/06/2003 02:31:53 AM · #59 |
| I guess salems bridges aren't that important never had a run in with the cops. |
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03/06/2003 02:33:27 AM · #60 |
For a less vitriolic viewpoint:
Michael Lerner's Triumph of Fear |
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03/06/2003 03:10:59 AM · #61 |
I just have to say that anyone who thinks criticism of American government policies from foreigners stems from a) anti-Americanism or b) jealousy needs to think again. I'm hearing a lot of criticism of France from Americans right now. Is that anti-Frenchism? Is it jealousy? No, it's disagreement with government policies.
It's easy to say that it must be jealousy. It's harder to recognise that it's FEAR. The rest of the world has no control over what your government does, not even through the UN - a body that was set up so we could all work together and prevent the mistakes of history being repeated. Any threat Bush makes of attacking Iraq without UN support is terrifying. What on earth are we supposed to do to protect ourselves from the fallout of this? If the Middle East is completely destabilised, Israel starts nuking its neighbours, India and Pakistan begin an all-out nuclear war... what can we do?
America is the strongest country in the world, and most of us do not like this. But it is not because we all want to be the strongest country in the world. It's because we have no way to make our own voices heard, and no defense if suddenly our own governments become the targets of "regime change".
Is this clear?
Personally, I love living in an idyllic, insignificant little island continent at the "arse end" of the world. It's very peaceful. You'll never find me yearning to be a citizen of a superpower. What would I gain? |
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03/06/2003 03:11:47 AM · #62 |
It is always easier to lose your liberties than to gain them.
Being one of the people, who was directly affected by the WTC attack (and thankfully survived), I still think it is NOT ok to restrict personal liberties or reduce the rights to privacy. I'd rather risk going through what I've gone, again and again if I have too; just let me excersise my freedom.
True, I was not born in this country, but have been living here for the last 14 years. And what I am seeing now, sounds exactly like, the stories I've heard from my grand parents who witneced Lenin's and Stalin's prapoganda against the capitalists, impirialists, and such. Half the evidence publicly shown so far is, for the lack of better word, crap.
Why would this country want another Vietnam, and all of its implecations home and abroad.
Message edited by author 2003-03-06 03:16:28.
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03/06/2003 03:12:28 AM · #63 |
I didn't have to worry about police because I was in a rural area too, and I took my bridge picture 20 yards from my doorstep.
It snowed that morning, and I was bright enough to bring out a tarp to set up my stuff on and sit on so I didn't get all wet. But, I was about 10 feet from a road, and the snowplow came by while I was sitting there. I wish I could have gotten a picture of the plow throwing snow all over me. Fun Stuff.
Not sure if I should post this or not, its not my views on government. It should give a few people a laugh though.
Message edited by author 2003-03-06 03:38:26. |
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03/06/2003 03:22:42 AM · #64 |
Originally posted by dimitrii:
And what I am seeing now, sounds exactly like, the stories I've heard from my grand parents who witneced Lenin's and Stalin's prapoganda against the capitalists, impirialists, and such. Have the evidence publicly shown so far is, for the lack of better word, crap. |
I don't have your valuable experience of both countries, but I think your observation is very insightful. In my history classes at school we studied both Stalin's and Hitler's regimes, with a lot of attention paid to their propaganda campaigns. Slogans and scapegoating are terrible things, especially when the country's citizens buy into them.
Every time I see a debate like this online, though, I am SO thankful for the internet. I believe the way we are all communicating together here will save us all from the kinds of regimes that could exist in the past. The internet was the main reason why so many millions of people have come together around the world, in the US and in so many other countries, to protest against the war. On a smaller scale, I'm sure there are people in the US whose only exposure to the opinions of people from other countries is through sites like this one. I'm glad that they get to see all sides of the argument and decide for themselves. |
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03/06/2003 03:52:58 AM · #65 |
For Americans who think the rest of the world should be "grateful" for the "protection" you give us, here are a few facts out of just the history of my own family:
My grandfather fought in the Korean War in support of the alliance between Australia and the US. He was then stationed in Japan as part of the occupying forces.
My father came very close to being conscripted into the army to fight in the Vietnam war (during the conscription lottery they pulled out the date one day before his birthday).
My Uncle was captain of the HMS Sydney, but was transferred to a land position only a month (I think) before that battleship was sent to the Gulf War.
None of these campaigns had anything to do with Australia (except, arguably, the occupation of Japan). They were all American campaigns that we supported with our own men, members of our own families, to support our alliance with you.
On the other hand, a few years ago when the East Timorese were being slaughtered by Indonesian militias after their vote for independence, the US was nowhere to be seen. Australia led an international force to stop the violence and defend East Timor's independence. (It was the least we could do, since we were the only country in the world to officially recognise the annexation of East Timor in 1975... and we supported Soeharto...).
What I don't understand is why you Americans would treat our alliance so lightly, and think that because we (Australia's citizens, but sadly not our government) disagree with you over this issue, all the work we have put into fighting by your side should be discounted. WE have to be GRATEFUL to YOU for protection? We sent our own men and women to fight for you! We are on the verge of sending thousands more to Iraq on your command. Do you not know this? |
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03/06/2003 04:00:06 AM · #66 |
Reminder:
This is a photography board. Personal attacks are in violation of site policy, and most of this thread properly belongs in the rant folder. Please continue any such discussion there.
Please feel free to continue discussion of the original topic (how security issues relate to the challenge). If this thread continues off topic it will be removed.
-Terry
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03/06/2003 05:12:52 AM · #67 |
hmm
Message edited by author 2003-03-06 05:14:28. |
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03/06/2003 07:31:37 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by lnede:
The price for greater security is the loss of liberty. We will have to get used to it. |
those that are willing to give up liberty for security, do not deserve either one... :o)
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03/06/2003 08:48:48 AM · #69 |
I found a safe, little, garden bridge to photograph here at my hotel in the outdoor contemplation gardens. A bridge does not necessarily need to be a giant highway bridge does it? Regardless, the only security that I ran into was more interested in casino capers than the garden bridge, so it was fairly safe for me to take my image. My only challenge was for the other tourists to stop walking right into my shot.
As for the politics, well....I am here simply for the joy of photography, not to beat drums or push my views. Unless it is about cameras, of course. |
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03/06/2003 09:01:52 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Originally posted by dimitrii:
And what I am seeing now, sounds exactly like, the stories I've heard from my grand parents who witneced Lenin's and Stalin's prapoganda against the capitalists, impirialists, and such. Have the evidence publicly shown so far is, for the lack of better word, crap. |
I don't have your valuable experience of both countries, but I think your observation is very insightful. In my history classes at school we studied both Stalin's and Hitler's regimes, with a lot of attention paid to their propaganda campaigns. Slogans and scapegoating are terrible things, especially when the country's citizens buy into them.
Every time I see a debate like this online, though, I am SO thankful for the internet. I believe the way we are all communicating together here will save us all from the kinds of regimes that could exist in the past. The internet was the main reason why so many millions of people have come together around the world, in the US and in so many other countries, to protest against the war. On a smaller scale, I'm sure there are people in the US whose only exposure to the opinions of people from other countries is through sites like this one. I'm glad that they get to see all sides of the argument and decide for themselves. |
Thank you.
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03/06/2003 09:55:02 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by lisae:
On the other hand, a few years ago when the East Timorese were being slaughtered by Indonesian militias after their vote for independence, the US was nowhere to be seen. Australia led an international force to stop the violence and defend East Timor's independence. |
Lisae,
U.S. Marines were sent in to support the mission as well. |
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03/06/2003 10:17:10 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by lisae:
Every time I see a debate like this online, though, I am SO thankful for the internet. I believe the way we are all communicating together here will save us all from the kinds of regimes that could exist in the past. The internet was the main reason why so many millions of people have come together around the world, in the US and in so many other countries, to protest against the war. On a smaller scale, I'm sure there are people in the US whose only exposure to the opinions of people from other countries is through sites like this one. I'm glad that they get to see all sides of the argument and decide for themselves. |
That's funny. I was just thinking the exact opposite. Every time I see a debate like this, it makes me loath the internet for exposing everyone to the meaningless and asinine opinions of the general populous. Not to mention their prejudices, ignorances, and narrow-minded beliefs.
The problem with debates like this is that they are not fueled by a desire to reach a settlement or some sort of underlying truth. They are fueled by the desire of each participating individual to put themselves forth as the more enlightened, righteous one of the bunch.
The truth of the matter is that no one here knows enough of the truth behind what motivates the actions of the world's governments to create a fully informed and unbiased opinion. This is by design. Internet forums like this illustrate the fact that the majority of people do not possess the mindset the rationally make decisions for an entire country.
My point: keep in mind when you decide to debate, when you decide to protest, when you decide to form an opinion, that you do not have all of the relevant information. You are not entirely aware of the impacts and consequences of war. Equally, you are not entirely aware of the impacts and consequences of peace. Millions of tiny bits of information weigh heavily on the decisions made by our governments every day. Don't think that you can boil it down to fundamental principles. To think it is a simple matter of right and wrong is naive.
--
My 2 cents for the next few years until I decide to rant again.
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03/06/2003 10:22:23 AM · #73 |
This thread is now locked and has been replaced by the thread titled "Discover Freedom" in the rant forum. Please continue any discussion there. If anyone would like to discuss security issues and how they relate to the challenge you are welcome to start a new thread for that purpose.
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