Inconsistant voting, please explain.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

12/02/2004 06:01:24 PM · #101

I am amazed at the amount of heated discussion this posting has generated. Thanks to everyone for their comments, I think I've learnt a lot, particularly from GoldBerry who suggested "let it go & mooooove on"

I think my original feeling was that I would only give a 1 if a photo:

A, didn't meet the challenge,
B, is technically poor, (out of focus, poorly composed etc)
C, I don't find it appealing or interesting.

Only if a photo meets all of the above would I consider giving it a 1. After all, 1 is the lowest score you can give. Therefore, if a photo has any redeeming features at all then surely it must score higher. If I don't like a photo, it may still meet the challenge or be technically sound. Likewise, it may not meet the challenge but I like the picture or be technically poor but meets the challenge.

In a past thread, Redmoon stated that they split their voting into thirds, how well it met the challenge, the quality of the picture and whether or not you like the photo. I have taken this on board and, working on this theory, the chances of me giving a 1 are very slim.

Message edited by author 2004-12-02 18:20:07.

12/02/2004 06:06:17 PM · #102

Sorry, Gordon.
In this forum, your arguments are faulty. You too often take a comment personally and then shift position to parry a perceived personal blow. I have agreed with you in other forums. You have said some very wise things and shared some helpful information. Here you have allowed to yourself to be manipulated because you are trying to defend a position that really has no defense. There is truth in what graphicfunk has to say, and ultimately, truth always wins.

12/02/2004 07:27:55 PM · #103

Originally posted by Russ:

I would only give a 1 if a photo:

A, didn't meet the challenge,
B, is technically poor, (out of focus, poorly composed etc)
C, I don't find it appealing or interesting.

That is a fair and reasonable policy, however you must consider that not everyone shares your views. There are other perfectly valid reasons to vote a 1. For example:

- Pictures of somebody else's kid 1
- Pictures with a flower in it- except maybe calla lilies, they're cool
- I saw something like this 22 years ago in Madagascar 1
- Pictures featuring pink. I hate pink 1
- Any concept based upon a flag, religious or political symbol 1
- Pictures of a dog or cat 1
- I don't like it, and you aren't advanced enough to understand why 1
- Hey! Wasn't there one of those in the last challenge? 1
- Zero isn't available, so I'm bumping you up to a 1
- Pictures of bugs. Ewww! 1
- Pictures with any hint of nudity- unless it's Bianca (that scale starts at 8)
- I love it, but this might be DQ'd so it's an automatic 1
- Any entry that doesn't fit the challenge title alone... descriptions are for weenies 1
- I don't understand the challenge, so this probably doesn't meet it 1
- Any photo that even remotely suggests digital art, even if it was straight out of the camera 1
- Any obvious use of Neat Image- photos shouldn't be too smooth, unless there's grain, that's also a 1
- The first 3 photos I happen to vote on because I'm grouchy: 1, maybe 2 if it's Friday
- Your background is out of focus! Hey, what does DOF mean? 1
- My photo just got a 3. YOU get a 1.
- Dice, eggs, dartboards, frogs, money, food and utensils... all 1
- Not enough saturation for this B&W challenge 1
- I'll start you off in the 1 group and adjust it later EDIT- Oops, I forgot!
- That's the most incredible photo I've ever seen!!! Umm... where was I? Oh, yeah... 1
- If your horizon isn't horizontal, then your score shall be vertical: 1
- Any entry that depends on the title to meet the challenge 1
- Any entry with the challenge name within the title 1
- Any entry with no title 1
- Bo-ring. Zzzzzz. 1
- That fits the challenge so perfectly! At least your score will be outside the box... 1
- Hi, I'm new here, so I'm going to start the scores at the beginning 1

and of course, the ever-popular:
- WWYT? 1

The more you understand these common reasons for low scores, the better prepared you will be to just shake your head in utter disbelief and move on. ;-)

Edited to add a few more- it's too much fun.

Message edited by author 2004-12-02 22:24:12.

Fujifilm XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4 OIS

12/02/2004 07:33:54 PM · #104

scalvert,
You made my day. Too funny!

docpjv

Fujifilm X-E1

12/02/2004 10:05:29 PM · #105

scalvert..... what a great discovery you have led me to..hehehehehe...! OK, I'm moving on...hehehehe...;-)

and graphicfunk for president!

Message edited by author 2004-12-02 22:09:09.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

12/02/2004 10:33:46 PM · #106

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
One minor lesson I have learned is that if you attempt to structure your perception of life from within, you stand the chance of being totally off base. What I mean are the conclusions of what you find useful and useless. While they work for you, they do not work for all.

I agree entirely with you. That is why I strongly disagree with your view that anyone who votes a 1 is a troll or a elitist snob. However, I don't tend to try to insult or degrade people who use too many 10s as often you try to do in the opposite regard.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Here, you invert 180 degrees. It is the troll vote that cripples the newcomer, the 10's do not have anything because they do not adversely affect the outcome. I simply believe that a little mercy and understanding will go a longer way to educate the beginner than the troll vote. While it is there to use, it should be used with great judgment. The troll voters and elitists snobs exist and their votes are visible to all who study the top images in most challenges. But this is not to say that all trollers are elitists and snobs, simply that most of them are. A 1 is a terrible and horrid picture and while these exists, they are not that common to waste all this energy. According to you this is a very common occurance and I simply disagree, especially if the object is to help the photographer.

Your position is clear, you expect for members to have gems of beauty before you and those that offend your aesthetic senses you troll, period. Yes, you already said it, they should have done their homework and master their art before posting. I look at it more like encouraging those that may otherwise walk away. A different philosophy, that is all.

[bold mine]

Gordon can speak for himself. There is, to me, nothing demonic and wild ("trolls') about evaluating a photo, be that via a 1, a 5 or a ten. A terrible photo, an offensive photo, a failure of feeling, in my book equals 1 out of 10. Such a vote, if given honestly and without ulterior motives, could be considered educational, particularly if those who share this view would not vote it higher than what they, themselves believe it is worth.

One ulterior motive could be the intent to exercise kindness. Kindness, although nice and universally welcome, has no educational value. In fact, it often distorts truth. Truth has educational value.

Neil

Fujifilm X-T30

12/02/2004 11:36:11 PM · #107

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Fantastic shot. Lighting and framing is spot-on
1 ...okay, I know...typo!

Maybe so, maybe not. Despite the words on either end of the scale, I'll bet that some newbies assume that 1 is good (1st place) and 10 is bad. These mistaken votes would look for all the world like trolls freshly emerged from under a bridge, yet an automated voting pattern recognition system would accept them as legit.

You mean 1 isn't the top of the scale? Sh*t. I've voted 17562 votes backwards. Sorry everyone. And I thought I was being so good to everyone. That's the problem with having your scores in the middle all the time--you don't know which way is up.

;)

12/03/2004 12:43:59 AM · #108

Okay, let's get this straight. There is a difference between vapid niceties and sincere comments. That is always the argument used against anyone who refuses to slam down a one without a comment or simply because it violates some random bias (thanks again scalvert for pointing this out so adeptly), that we are being kind. B.S. Kindness has nothing to do with it. If something is good, I say so. If something stinks, I also say so. If something has potential but I see it as flawed, I point out what I think to be the flaw and share how I would improve it. The artist has the ultimate choice whether to accept or reject my advice. I may have missed his original intent, which could be a flaw in the work or a flaw in my interpretation. I have given ones, but I always leave a comment. And I have given tens, and I always leave a comment. I am less likely to leave a comment for a middle of the road image unless I see some significant potential or a failed (in my opinion) creative risk.

Message edited by author 2004-12-03 10:06:09.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

12/03/2004 11:28:46 AM · #109

Originally posted by KDO:

...B.S. Kindness has nothing to do with it....

It may not have anything to do with the way you and I rate and comment. It does have something to do with those practices which are symptomatic of kindness as articulated by graphicfunk in his post(s).

Message edited by author 2004-12-03 14:41:29.

12/03/2004 05:18:37 PM · #110

Look: I always try to learn. I am the eternal student. I do not assume an air of authority but logic forces a jargon with rules. I adhere to these rules to reach what I consider the essense of any matter. I have heard some members exclaim some very well balanced ideas. These I accept and I am grateful to those of you who have expressed them.

Not long ago someone said that they do not vote Tens because no picture is perfect. This makes good sense to me. Yet, like most of you I have given tens because the image moved me so that I wanted to give it a 15.
However, there is some wisdom in the above statement, that is there is no perfect picture.

Now, go to the other extreme. If a Ten is perfect than One is the antithesis. One is the pitts. Yes, we do see them on occasion and we want to send the message with a One. Often, writing a comment is ignored because we just want this person and image to go away and why identify with the troll vote.

We have a definition problem and this happens when ideas are being distilled. A one, in whatever fashion is and has been identified with the troller. But trollers are not that stupid. They vote other images higher. There are also members that employ the one but they do so with good judgment. In short, they use the weapon of the troller, but that does not make them a troller.

As you vote consider the following. You have a stat box that keeps track of your voting versus votes received. Under the belief that we want to help each other, we would like to give back what is given to us. Your aim should be to equal or exceed this stat.

You are free to vote as you wish but every 1 you give will keep this goal farther apart. The mathematicians will do a song and dance with stats, but the one hurts not only the recipient but you as well, if you take fair play into account.

So, I simply avoid it. My first reason is that there are very small amount of these figures and these images would not suffer the more if they get a 3 instead or even a 4. Many others will make it their mission to troll these images because they deserve it.

The above are mainly offensive images. Now, consider what comes off as a snapshot. Terrible yes, but is it really a One? Why not give them a 4 and a comment? This has nothing to do with kindness, more with civility. Consider also the newcomer eager to place their entry. They work full time and their time is limited. They are drunk with pleasure because they have an entry that matches the challenge. Their image is say a 4. Be civil with the vote and the comment and you may help this individual to improve their skills. Once they learn their camera they have the struggle with the software. A good picture but badly processed. Again, my suggestion is be civil and suggest they study their software because competing images need more work to remain active.

Take it however you like. My feeling is that votes above 5 are the ones that determine the good images. As you all know, to rise to 7 from 6.333 with at least 160 votes requires a big series of sevens.

And yes, I feel guilty that I have not given what I have received. You must understand that I submit not what I should to ribbon, but what I want. If I ribbon fine, if not here comes the next. I try by voting in a very structured matter that requires more time than what I would like to give..but I feel it must be done properly. It is like my civil duty to the site. I have no desire for popularity in cyber space. It is just that when I do anything meaningful, I do it like the song: heart and soul.

riley

12/03/2004 05:44:10 PM · #111

12/03/2004 06:25:19 PM · #112

Not long ago I was teaching my students a variety of words that mean stubborn: obsinate, bullheaded, closed-minded, headstrong, incompliant, intractable, intransigent, pertinacious -- and --determined, steadfast, tenacious, unshakable; relentless, unremitting, persistive
Crazy thing about stubborn, it can be a positive or a negative depending on perception and intent.
I was a question writer for the Nevada High School Proficiency reading test. While working with a group on a question set, a head honcho from the state department came in and decreed: "We have too many students passing the test. We need this test to be more like the math test."
Now, I have a big mouth so I asked, "What is your intention?" Because I wanted him to say what he really meant: that he wanted more students to fail. I look into the eyes of my students every day. They are people to me, not statistics. And for each student who fails the proficiency and is denied a diploma, there is a crushed life. Can you imagine trying to get a job without a high school diploma? And this man wanted more to fail, more than the 20% who already were failing. His intentions came from an ugly place.
Just ask yourself this when you vote. What are my intentions? If they are to do damage, then rethink your vote. If they are honest and you are willing back up your vote with support and evidence, then go ahead and push that button.

12/03/2004 06:58:53 PM · #113

This discussion has been, um... entertaining (cain't we awl jest git along?), but in reality it comes down to this...

There are only a scant handful of people who will unleash the dreaded 1 on a photo that ends up placing well. On a good photo (as defined by its high placement), most of those few low votes would logically come from people with bad intentions, newbie voting mistakes, or people who completely misunderstood the challenge. No argument, no matter how passionate, is going to affect those types of votes, and they're usually an insignificant fraction of the score anyway. The same holds true for those that assign a 10 to the photos that come in last. The overwhelming majority of people on this site are fair and reasonable and we're pretty much preaching to the choir. The few abberant voters you are trying to convice will probably never even see this thread, so don't blow a blood vessel trying to "win" the debate. Go take some pictures! ;-)

Message edited by author 2004-12-03 19:00:32.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

12/03/2004 07:05:54 PM · #114

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Look:...

Look, we have your credo. As a credo alone, I have no objection to it. In excess of it, however, and despite the generous voting style you advocate, you also attempt to devalue a voting style which is more rigorous.
Although good reasons have been given to argue in favour of it, you resort to demeaning terms ('troll' and 'trolling'), when you refer to it. When you advocate your own views and practices, however, you attribute the term 'civility', possibly, because no one in his right mind is going to argue against civility.

I find these inconsistencies somewhat troubling and indicative of intolerance. If, after all, you would like me to consider your views without prejudice, why not consider a 1/10 as a 1/10 without demonstrating any prejudice on your part?

The scale is 1 (bad) - 10 (good). If you wish to vote a 1 (bad) three notches higher than what it is on the scale we have, some people may just wonder why the hell anyone would want to do so. You have provided an argument for doing so, and, IMHO, some of the points you make are worth considering.

When, on the other hand, I award a 1 (bad) image a 1, a 2 a 2 and so on, why call me a troll or my method of evaluating a photo according to what I consider it to be worth 'trolling'? Yes, my motivation for doing what I do is quite different from yours. I cannot, successfully, argue that my method yields any social or paedagogic benefits. What I can say is that it is motivated by an interest in truth and the conviction that a focus on the work of a photographer as opposed to an alleged psychology of his person is a sound way to avoid confusing one with the other.

I'd rather you called me a spade, really.

Message edited by author 2004-12-03 19:06:40.

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

12/03/2004 07:13:10 PM · #115

Hey, I just saw an ad for a Trolling Voter at WalMart. I was gonna send Vinny and Big Al over to rough him up, but the guy on the phone said it was just a typo. Some nonsense about boats. I think they're just trying to protect the jerk. ;-)

Neil

Fujifilm X-T30

12/03/2004 07:47:29 PM · #116

Yep, and I just heard about a daddy troller on my police scanner.

Or at least I think he was--they called him "Pa" troll.

docpjv

Fujifilm X-E1

Fujifilm XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4 OIS

12/03/2004 08:03:03 PM · #117

grapicfunk, you are the one with the most common sense view... i cannot fault your thinking. clearing somethings up for me and guiding me. thank you very much.

12/03/2004 08:20:13 PM · #118

gibun,
I am with you. I just got back from graphicfunk's portfolio. He is a master, and a master with a soul. If you haven't seen his work, you should stop in and look at it. After you pick up your jaw, you may want to use it to give him some kudos regarding his dazzling artistic talent. I am amazed he even bothers to write in these forums. He certainly has no need of us. Perhaps we should all do some more listening and less trying to win. His work speaks volumes.

Message edited by author 2004-12-03 21:55:00.

12/03/2004 09:40:48 PM · #119

Originally posted by zeuszen:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
Look:...

Look, we have your credo. As a credo alone, I have no objection to it. In excess of it, however, and despite the generous voting style you advocate, you also attempt to devalue a voting style which is more rigorous.
Although good reasons have been given to argue in favour of it, you resort to demeaning terms ('troll' and 'trolling'), when you refer to it. When you advocate your own views and practices, however, you attribute the term 'civility', possibly, because no one in his right mind is going to argue against civility.

I find these inconsistencies somewhat troubling and indicative of intolerance. If, after all, you would like me to consider your views without prejudice, why not consider a 1/10 as a 1/10 without demonstrating any prejudice on your part?

The scale is 1 (bad) - 10 (good). If you wish to vote a 1 (bad) three notches higher than what it is on the scale we have, some people may just wonder why the hell anyone would want to do so. You have provided an argument for doing so, and, IMHO, some of the points you make are worth considering.

When, on the other hand, I award a 1 (bad) image a 1, a 2 a 2 and so on, why call me a troll or my method of evaluating a photo according to what I consider it to be worth 'trolling'? Yes, my motivation for doing what I do is quite different from yours. I cannot, successfully, argue that my method yields any social or paedagogic benefits. What I can say is that it is motivated by an interest in truth and the conviction that a focus on the work of a photographer as opposed to an alleged psychology of his person is a sound way to avoid confusing one with the other.

I'd rather you called me a spade, really.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Okay, let me try a different approach to respond that you detect a judgmental attitude on my part. I assure you there is not and I will prove it to you. Everything that I am saying flows from the same source.

The source: That we are here at DPC to help each other and advance the craft/art of photography. Yes, it is primary a competing site, but that is what makes this a great site. There is nothing like competition to sharpen our wits. The numerical voting scale is an arbitrary selection to signify bad and good. Then there is the comment or the feedback. The founders simply wanted to improve their photography and put together a winning combination which has evolved to include the challenge, the voting scale, the stats and the feedback.

The above constitutes a very strong learning tool to learn whatever it is you want to learn. It follows that if you are a member of good faith you will want to use these tools as wisely as you can.

You say I glorify my system or belief as noble because I avoid using the end of the scale and cast a dispersion by refering to those that use the bottom of scale as trollers. What you accomplish with a 1 I can do the same with a 3 or a 4 with a comment. You want to use the maximum penalty and I the least. Re-read the above and see which system appears more noble in your eyes.

Do not be quick to judge. Look at the beacon: to help each other improve the craft/art of photography with the above tools. Which one do you feel really fit the bill?

Look, I come and write with the best intention. I do not just say it but I actually take valuable time to live up to the beacon and you can check my stats.

While a single voter has little effect on the winners, it does have a bigger effect on each members stats. I did not introduce the term troller. But the troller does use the 1 and the 2. Not everyone that votes 1 and 2 is a troller but for all practical purposes we can say that to troll an image is to give it a 1 or 2. If we are a true troller than we are deeply offended not for being a troller but for being identified. You see, will some expert or master photographer show me the long stream of images that deserve a 1? And if there is one, can we not try to help this supposed lost soul by placing him/her on a safer ground with say a 3, 4 with a comment?

Look, 1 to 10 is long, long scale that we reduce into a smaller value. Some go from 3 to 7, 4 to 8 but I do not have the ability to utilize 10 grading steps. We can do it better with 5. I have been in photography all my life and I assure you that member challenges do not have as many ONES as the voters would have us believe.

12/03/2004 09:48:46 PM · #120

void

Message edited by author 2004-12-04 00:00:41.

basia03

Canon PowerShot SX50 HS

12/03/2004 10:08:27 PM · #121

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

... show me the long stream of images that deserve a 1?

"//dpchallenge.com/photo_browse.php?view=lowestrated"

12/03/2004 10:34:24 PM · #122

Originally posted by basia03:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
... show me the long stream of images that deserve a 1?

"//dpchallenge.com/photo_browse.php?view=lowestrated"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have gone through this list and while they are many simply bad images, not everybody felt that the one was the appropiate vote. I know, some feel that these people do not belong here, but not all received machine fire 1. Compared to the mid averages they are poor but the mid average is poor compared to the higher average. With this scoring it appears to cleanse the system, but then should we not try to help these people. They certainly are no threat because most 5.2 can beat them. Well, it comes back that yes you can use the 1 to chastise and expunged them or you can be a sport and really try to help. But no, not all of them are ones.

scottwilson

Canon EOS-350D Rebel XT

Canon EF 28mm f/2.8

12/03/2004 10:52:20 PM · #123

Originally posted by graphicfunk:

Originally posted by basia03:

Originally posted by graphicfunk:
... show me the long stream of images that deserve a 1?

"//dpchallenge.com/photo_browse.php?view=lowestrated"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I have gone through this list and while they are many simply bad images, not everybody felt that the one was the appropiate vote. I know, some feel that these people do not belong here, but not all received machine fire 1. Compared to the mid averages they are poor but the mid average is poor compared to the higher average. With this scoring it appears to cleanse the system, but then should we not try to help these people. They certainly are no threat because most 5.2 can beat them. Well, it comes back that yes you can use the 1 to chastise and expunged them or you can be a sport and really try to help. But no, not all of them are ones.

Low scoring photos

I looked at these photos and in almost all cases the person who entered the photo did not cast a single vote and did not make a single comment.
I believe that there are people who get on this site just to see how bad a photo they can submit. This is why it is hard to make comments on some of the photo that look like someone is going after the brown ribbon, but if it looks like the person was at all trying I will leave a comment.