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12/21/2004 09:57:25 PM · #76 |
Edit: Never mind... I don't want to get into this.
Message edited by author 2004-12-21 23:22:14. |
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12/21/2004 11:54:15 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by frychikn:
Originally posted by Riggs:
Most death row prisoners find God before they are shown the needle. They try to make ammends for the atrocities they have commited by finding God.
Now I am not saying they will go to heaven or not. But when confronted directly with death human nature will always try to find a God.
I can assure you right before death in some horrible accident, people who never believed in God said "Oh my God" And when dying probably said a small prayer before death.
I am not a Bible thumper, dont go to Church...but when my time is up I will say a prayer...just to be safe. :) |
And this shows the real reason why people worship deities; not love or gratitude or even a sense of obligation, but fear. |
And this shows why some people worship deities. Others do it out of love/gratitude/obligation.
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12/22/2004 12:24:15 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by Riggs:
Most death row prisoners find God before they are shown the needle. They try to make ammends for the atrocities they have commited by finding God.
Now I am not saying they will go to heaven or not. But when confronted directly with death human nature will always try to find a God.
I can assure you right before death in some horrible accident, people who never believed in God said "Oh my God" And when dying probably said a small prayer before death.
I am not a Bible thumper, dont go to Church...but when my time is up I will say a prayer...just to be safe. :) |
True.
Originally posted by RonB:
Some who have posted in this thread must, therefore, believe that some really intelligent people just "dumb down" when they get old. |
When humans get old and near death, they begin to fear death. It is comforting to believe death is not the end of ones existence.
Message edited by author 2004-12-22 00:24:49. |
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12/23/2004 11:28:22 AM · #79 |
Equally interesting is Joseph McCabe, a former catholic priest who renounced Christianity and converted to atheism. He wrote many books on the subject.
Here's a quote of his:
"The Roman Catholic Church is an anachronism, an imposture, which the world is rapidly finding out . . . It is poor in scholarship and rich in crime. It hates and fears truth. It still prefers the cloak and dagger, the intrigue and the secret bullying".
His writings expose many of the abuses of the Church. Article ]HERE.
What I find more interesting, and even more troubling, is that Christian Fundamentalists, it seems to me, appear not to be expressing their love of the teachings of their god (love thy neighbor, gentleness and peace), as much as, their adoption of certain moral stances in regard to a couple of issues, and their willingness to become involved in the political process to further those aims. It appears as if they have a double standard in that they are willing to make an issue out of certain kinds of killing and not others. It appears to me as if they've adopted a "us versus them" mentality and are more willing to pick up the "sword" rather than embrace all of gods children.
As has been stated before, this is an issue with organized religions and not of the teachings of any specific god. This is what this thread is about: How the christian fundamentalist organized religion and the republican party has mixed church and state.
*******
[quote=RonB]
Interesting. Anthony Flew, a legendary and (formerly) well respected atheist uses his own mind, too. And he argued for over 50 years against the existance of God. But now, in his eighties, he has changed his mind "in light of recent scientific evidence". Investigation of DNA, he said, “has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved”. Full article here
Some who have posted in this thread must, therefore, believe that some really intelligent people just "dumb down" when they get old. [/quote
Message edited by author 2004-12-23 11:29:44. |
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12/23/2004 11:41:39 AM · #80 |
BIG BANG<<<< NOT
was anything as simple as a leaf, or a frog or a stone ever created from an explosion a man produced?
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12/23/2004 11:48:09 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
...the republican party has mixed church and state. |
Do you even have a remote clue as to what seperation of church and state is? There is absolutly nothing wrong with the polititians being influenced or guided by their belief in god.
After all, you certainly didn't bitch when Clinton or Kerry claimed they prayed for guidance every day.
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12/23/2004 12:01:10 PM · #82 |
I have one question which I would like to post to this forum. It has been bothering me for a while now.
You see, I am a student who is in the USA for my studies, and I obviously look like an international student. When walking through campus, I find all these people handing out flyers to the 'international looking' students about Christainity and why you should become a Christian. And at times I find people who ask me if I've found myself (their meaning being have I converted to Christainity, do I belive in the Christain God?). I initially got offended by this. I thought that people should respect other people's religions and not tell them that because they belong to a different religion they are 'damned' or that marriage wont work or that they're life will be miserable.
After a bit more thinking and reading up, I realized this occurs in almost all religions in almost all parts of the world. I still wonder why? Is it a sin not to conform to someone else's idea of right and wrong? Is there right and wrong?
An analogy to this in photography would be the rule of the thirds. If a person follows the rules, would he/she become a good photographer? If not, will he/she be a bad photographer? Are there absolutes?
Sorry about the long post. Just my thoughts in words.
Any comments on this?
Sups |
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12/23/2004 12:29:51 PM · #83 |
I have issues with non-passive "recruiting" for churches. I think it should be allowed, but I don't like it.
There are two main reasons (my belief) why people do this:
a) More people at church means more donations which means more an& bigger projects better out-reach programs and so on and so forth...
b) Converting people is a good way for SOME to justify or qualify their beliefs...
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12/23/2004 01:00:42 PM · #84 |
Of course, there is a third reason...passion for what they believe to be true.
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12/23/2004 07:40:37 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by gusto:
BIG BANG<<<< NOT
was anything as simple as a leaf, or a frog or a stone ever created from an explosion a man produced? |
The last time I checked, a leaf was a spectacularly complex little piece of living machinery, made up of numerous types of specialized cells, chemicals, and tensile structures, each individual leaf growing differently to best utilize the resources available at it's location, varying it's makeup depending on ambient light, the ratio of gasses in the atmosphere, and any number of other factors.
I suppose this will just get turned around and pointed to as 'evidence' that said leaf was 'designed', completely glossing over the extensive living and fossilized records of other leaves that form a nearly continuous spectrum of varying complexity from the relatively simple prehistoric plants like the ginko, all the way through to highly adapted meat trapping and eating chambers like those found on pitcher plants and honeydews. Likewise, I assume it will be completely ignored that leaves (like many natural structures) have patterns highly suggestive of fractals and recursion, both facets of the science of chaos which holds as one of it's basic tenets that incredibly complex patterns can emerge from the simplest of rules, a process which can be demonstrated 'in the lab' with ease and often results in stunning beauty.
Frankly, from my point of view, the belief that a leaf is a simple thing is purely an indication of the limited worldview oft held by those who would cling to dogma rather than accept information that does not support their own claims.
After all, it's just a leaf.
Message edited by author 2004-12-23 19:49:06.
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12/23/2004 07:54:27 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Of course, there is a third reason...passion for what they believe to be true. |
Namely, that I'm going to hell. Perhaps not in the proverbial handbasket, but close enough.
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12/23/2004 08:09:16 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by bdobe:
Yet, [evolution] is not just any theory. It is one of the most basic theories in science today, and most biologists and other scientists believe that the theory is so well supported by data that it is a basic part of the scientific firmament. As National Geographic stated in its November cover story: "The evidence for evolution is overwhelming." |
This 'factually-based theory' still relies heavily on something called carbon dating theory which PRESUMES that the decay of the atomic values of carbon are linear. FACT: No one has been alive long enough to prove or disprove that the link pin in this theory is completely accurate and in-fact linear.
Plato et al were very specific. If we are to believe the premise that the 'fact' is based on, we must accept the whole.
I have yet to see that those things we claim to be scientifically sound are indeed the truth. Until such time as the dating process is proven or disproven, all science is in fact theory. Time becomes relative in the gravitational pull of a black hole (supposedly), as one time the Earth was flat and even the center of the universe, and for a very long time we thought Electrons, Neutrons and Protons were the smallest particle of atomic measurement.
There are scientists who have spent their entire careers supporting the evolutionary doctrine and they are right for supporting and teaching it as it is a very important concept to understand and keep in mind when considering planetary development. But there are some of them who now wholeheartedly state that they have spent their lives only to come to 'believe' that God must exist as there is 'no other logical or scientific explanation for man's existence or development.'
The precepts of God are folly to the fool. The wisdom of God un-understandable. And science is man's attempt to understand the order lavished on chaos. Do we really think that we have grappled with reality as complicated as evolutionary science when we still cannot figure out our own wives and children?
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12/23/2004 08:35:22 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
I have yet to see that those things we claim to be scientifically sound are indeed the truth. Until such time as the dating process is proven or disproven, all science is in fact theory. |
Actually, in the eyes of scientists, even if carbon dating were 'proven', all science would still be theory. Got it yet?
This isn't to say that I buy into your assertion that evolution relies on carbon dating in the slightest. I'm just trying to be clear here that real science always leaves open the possibility that new information will come along and that the current theories, even the most basic ones, may in fact need to be reevaluated and possibly changed.
Science is a process.
I suppose I'm glad to be counted as one of the fools. It seems a lot simpler than predicating the validity of all science on the provability of only one of many techniques used for gathering information that science employs. How convoluted!
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12/23/2004 08:48:36 PM · #89 |
My point about proving the carbon dating theory is more to the tune of by the time we have solid evidence of the linearity of carbon dating, we will have thousands of thousands of years to have 'founded' our hypotheses.
And from those who live by faith in combination with science, we are relegated to believe also in the omniscience of God and the limitation of man's understanding in comparison to that wisdom. Thusly, we are all fools, not just you. ;-)
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12/23/2004 08:48:56 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by gusto:
BIG BANG<<<< NOT
was anything as simple as a leaf, or a frog or a stone ever created from an explosion a man produced?
The last time I checked, a leaf was a spectacularly complex little piece of living machinery, made up of numerous types of specialized cells, chemicals, and tensile structures, each individual leaf growing differently to best utilize the resources available at it's location, varying it's makeup depending on ambient light, the ratio of gasses in the atmosphere, and any number of other factors.
I suppose this will just get turned around and pointed to as 'evidence' that said leaf was 'designed', completely glossing over the extensive living and fossilized records of other leaves that form a nearly continuous spectrum of varying complexity from the relatively simple prehistoric plants like the ginko, all the way through to highly adapted meat trapping and eating chambers like those found on pitcher plants and honeydews. Likewise, I assume it will be completely ignored that leaves (like many natural structures) have patterns highly suggestive of fractals and recursion, both facets of the science of chaos which holds as one of it's basic tenets that incredibly complex patterns can emerge from the simplest of rules, a process which can be demonstrated 'in the lab' with ease and often results in stunning beauty.
Frankly, from my point of view, the belief that a leaf is a simple thing is purely an indication of the limited worldview oft held by those who would cling to dogma rather than accept information that does not support their own claims. |
After all, it's just a leaf.
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, there is a third reason...passion for what they believe to be true.
Namely, that I'm going to hell. Perhaps not in the proverbial handbasket, but close enough |
That being said, I suppose you wouldn't mind if I said that this line of thought is a tool of the devil.
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12/23/2004 08:56:17 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
That being said, I suppose you wouldn't mind if I said that this line of thought is a tool of the devil. |
My thoughts are not my own?
This is very surprising!
But you're right, I don't mind.
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12/23/2004 09:36:44 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Of course, there is a third reason...passion for what they believe to be true. |
Namely, that I'm going to hell. Perhaps not in the proverbial handbasket, but close enough. |
Well, that's kind of a cynical way of look at it...although, to be fair that's often how the passion I speak of is presented.
But your statement can be likened to the belief that a psychologist is motivated by the patient's inevitable journey towards dimentia rather than by truly believing that his/her patient could live a full life without constant paranoia and worry.
This metaphor breaks down, so please consider it only insofar as the motive of the messenger goes.
My point is that you've taken what I've said and put a negative spin on it...It might be fair not to do that.
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12/23/2004 09:52:39 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
My point is that you've taken what I've said and put a negative spin on it...It might be fair not to do that. |
Of course, if you take the 'faithful' Christian point of view on this whole discussion, then Mousie is correct in coming to the conclusion that Hell is the desination. We cannot argue that Christian's believe that Jesus' death on a cross and subsequent resurrection are the only 'way' into heaven. To do otherwise would be to say that His death was not needed as a redemption for all humankind's sin.
It is of course this simple 'truth' that we Christian's live by that alienate all those who are non-believers and which motivates many to fervently try to 'recruit'/convert others to the belief system that we have. It is the rationale that we used to war on Jerusalem and the reasoning that the inquisition persescuted so many for their 'unbelief.'
Religion is tool of those who wish to lord power over others. Faith is the gift that when shared, emancipates those fortunate enough to receive it. Unbelief is simply the state of accepting neither, but it does not preclude the possiblity of conversion when new information is presented in such a way that the unbeliever suddenly believes.
Until you die. No one can say for sure that you are going to hell, handbasket or not.
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12/23/2004 09:55:40 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
My point is that you've taken what I've said and put a negative spin on it...It might be fair not to do that. |
Of course, if you take the 'faithful' Christian point of view on this whole discussion, then Mousie is correct in coming to the conclusion that Hell is the desination. We cannot argue that Christian's believe that Jesus' death on a cross and subsequent resurrection are the only 'way' into heaven. To do otherwise would be to say that His death was not needed as a redemption for all humankind's sin.
It is of course this simple 'truth' that we Christian's live by that alienate all those who are non-believers and which motivates many to fervently try to 'recruit'/convert others to the belief system that we have. It is the rationale that we used to war on Jerusalem and the reasoning that the inquisition persescuted so many for their 'unbelief.'
Religion is tool of those who wish to lord power over others. Faith is the gift that when shared, emancipates those fortunate enough to receive it. Unbelief is simply the state of accepting neither, but it does not preclude the possiblity of conversion when new information is presented in such a way that the unbeliever suddenly believes.
Until you die. No one can say for sure that you are going to hell, handbasket or not. |
Nicely said, and worth repeating! (Though I think you meant "We must argue" instead of "We cannot argue" based on the next sentence)
Message edited by author 2004-12-23 22:18:18.
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12/23/2004 11:42:18 PM · #95 |
No, I meant we cannot argue.
I a Christian live on the belief that all are sinners. There is only one way that God has promised man that he can be redeemed for that sinfulness and that redemption is through acceptance of Jesus' death and resurrection as a payment for my sinfulness. I cannot hope to achieve heaven based on my 'goodness' for I will far miss the mark.
My following sentence is to emphasize the folly in the idea that we can achieve heaven or redemption through 'good works'. We never shall and it would be blasphemous to say that Jesus death was unecessary as it is the foundation of our belief that God has provided such a simple way for us to become redeemed: Accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, see His death and resurrection as payment for our sin and the door is open. I speak not of an empty allegiance to the concept nor of meaningless words that say 'I believe' just to attain the goal, but rather, the true devotion that comes from the faith that 'This is true, one man gave his life that we may live eternally.'
We cannot argue that Christian's believe Jesus death on the cross and subsequent resurrection are the only way into heaven.
For a Christian to argue that belief or to believe otherwise is like a Christian saying that He did not need to die for our sinfulness and in doing so would be stating that their faith is founded on a lie.
Non-Christians may argue the belief or the truth of the belief, but a true Christian will never be moved from such a foundation.
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12/24/2004 01:35:13 AM · #96 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
I a Christian live on the belief that all are sinners. There is only one way that God has promised man that he can be redeemed for that sinfulness and that redemption is through acceptance of Jesus' death and resurrection as a payment for my sinfulness. I cannot hope to achieve heaven based on my 'goodness' for I will far miss the mark.
My following sentence is to emphasize the folly in the idea that we can achieve heaven or redemption through 'good works'. We never shall and it would be blasphemous to say that Jesus death was unecessary as it is the foundation of our belief that God has provided such a simple way for us to become redeemed: Accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour, see His death and resurrection as payment for our sin and the door is open. I speak not of an empty allegiance to the concept nor of meaningless words that say 'I believe' just to attain the goal, but rather, the true devotion that comes from the faith that 'This is true, one man gave his life that we may live eternally.' |
To all of the same thinking:
Mentally confined; looking through a narrow perception, trying to find a single being and a single answer to the seemingly infinite and impossible questions. I consider this a flaw in ones perception of reality; though the norm.
The American Indians did not worship a singular being; they believed plants and animals had spirits. All beings were respected because they were life givers. They understood that they were a part of nature; not apart from it. They lived in balance with their surrounding environments. Then white men came, committed genocide on them and destroyed their "savage" culture forever, spreading across their land like a virus, consuming its natural resources without concern.
"Moral" people today are so busy being "morally outraged" about Janet's nipple and Mousie's sex life they do not see what really should be outraging them. If one considers themselves spiritual then one has to acknowledge the spirit of nature as it is the life giver to all animals and life on Earth. Without our biosphere, there is no life. What about "gods children" whose starvation and suffering only grows around the world?
5 minutes on CNN.com:
Report: Little progress toward halving world hunger
Little agreed as climate talks end
Ozone hole casts southern shadow
Study: Coral reef damage rising
And an idiot president won the election by the "moral majority” who are outraged over boys kissing but not waging an invasion war based on lies and continued proliferation of weapons that could annihilate all life while maintaining the ridiculous lie that the “war on terror” (as if that’s what this war is anyway) can be won; as if one day they will hunt down the very last terrorist and shoot him and then it will be over?
Where is your mind, your priorities; where is your sense of humanity, humility and compassion?!
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12/24/2004 07:58:21 AM · #97 |
As a Christian, I consider my "war" (as you put it MadMordegon) to be against all things which drag the life out of humans.
When Jesus said he came to give life, and give it completely, he didn't mean to save us from Janet's nipple, Mousie's sex life or boys kissing (as you described it). He meant to save us from our own sinfulness, our own pride...
You are right. Christians often think they should wage a war of morality and I believe that's mistaken. The war should be against depravity. Jesus said "feed the hungry" not stop the boys from kissing. Again, you are right.
As for looking to a "single being" and a "single answer" to seemingly infinite and impossible questions, I ask you:
Does it matter if I look to one infinite being or many beings? I believe my infinite God can address all seemingly infinite and impossible questions...
Grace and peace and Merry Christmas!
Mike
*disclaimer: this post has nothing at all to do with elections in the US, that's a whole different story. I'm only addressing the claims of Jesus Christ here *
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01/15/2005 09:05:33 PM · #98 |
| Since DPC members have so much constructive criticism for the Bush Administration, perhaps we should ask the White House to judge our challenge entries! :) |
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01/15/2005 09:08:43 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by miaminovice:
Since DPC members have so much constructive criticism for the Bush Administration, perhaps we should ask the White House to judge our challenge entries! :) |
Hey who knows, they might even find a WMD or two in the process. LOL
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01/31/2005 02:10:18 PM · #100 |
It is sad that a young man posted his beliefs here and did not attack anyone. He is a Christian. He stated that he loves everyone. Then immediately he was attacked by non-Christians. The same ones that are "terrified" of the Christian Right and accuse Christians of being the same as Muslim Extremists. There was no hate is his post. But there is venom in the non-Christians. Bush and other Christians have not forced anything on any one. If you think they have, name one thing. Just one. His faith based initiative (which St. Hillary agrees with) are for all faiths.
I personally believe that you cannot believe in God and not believe in the Bible. All you have for your basis of God and God's promise is his Word. You would never believe that Abraham Lincoln existed in some other form than what is documented in history.
I could never subscribe to a god I created, where is the hope in that?
I also believe that Christians secure in their faith do not need to pursue laws to make them live their faith correctly.
You don't need to post a reply because it does not matter to me what you believe. What I believe and you believe does not change the Truth. And the Truth is not going to be found in a Photo Forum. |
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