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11/04/2004 02:50:52 PM · #126 |
By the way, I hope this doesn't turn into a debate about the validity of Jesus' claims...I hope this mostly for selfish reasons as it's exhausting and it's all been done before...
But I can offer myself up as somebody to whom some questions can be directed:
Why would a seemingly rational person such as yourself allow Jesus' claims to change the way you live your life?
What have the teachings and person of Jesus done for you?
Is it worth it?
I can talk about "facts" and "evidence" and all that stuff but none of it matters if it hasn't changed who I am...I'm much more qualified if I can talk about my life, right?
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11/04/2004 02:51:33 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Yeah, Leonard Cohen has interesting thoughts and they look good on paper but there are not many that I would adopt...particularily that one. |
It's fairly safe to say, I'm sure, that Leonard did not intend for anyone to adopt or even 'entertain' such thought. There are several nuances of meaning here. I would consider those instead.
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11/04/2004 02:51:59 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
You're never relieved of conscience or responsibility. The more you are aware of this, the more critical (and better) your choices. |
So it does in fact matter who/what you worship...Is that what you're saying?
Edit: Your last post answered this and I understand what you're saying now...
Message edited by author 2004-11-04 14:52:33.
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11/04/2004 03:06:31 PM · #129 |
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man"
-Thomas Jefferson
I'm not meaning to insult (and I'm keeping my agreement/disagreement of the statement out) just sharing an interesting quote; and there are a lot of interesting things Jefferson had to say about the subject. |
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11/04/2004 03:23:35 PM · #130 |
System?
Other Jefferson quotes:
"In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own."
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
"Religions are all alike -- founded upon fables and mythologies"
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
I understand his feelings given his understanding of "Christianity". As a system (especially as he has described it), it sure is perverse!
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11/04/2004 03:40:05 PM · #131 |
| My interpretation but I think he was more opposed to the church (or organized/institutionalized Christianity) rather than religion understood as spirituallity or faith. But still, I for one am surprised he had that opinion. Especially since he was a Republican. |
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11/04/2004 03:42:44 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by kevinf:
My interpretation but I think he was more opposed to the church (or organized/institutionalized Christianity) rather than religion understood as spirituallity or faith. |
My point exactly...
But still, I for one am surprised he had that opinion. Especially since he was a Republican.
I know...and didn't some people try to pass him off as a Christian? I'm not sure as I don't know much about U.S. history, but I thought I had heard that before...
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11/04/2004 05:12:01 PM · #133 |
Quote:
"...Perhaps this is more so with Christians because of their strong belief in absolute objective truth, which demands that two contradictory beliefs can't both be right."
I have never understood how people with such strong beliefs in their god don't give themselves over to their god completely. For instance, I doubt very much that a Christian mother with a seriously ill child would not visit their doctor/hospital and expect intervention on the part of medical science. Doesn't that dilute and even pervert their faith in their chosen deity? Afterall, if it is god's decision to take an offspring, who are we mortals to get in the way?
Message edited by author 2004-11-04 17:13:21. |
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11/04/2004 05:45:06 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Quote:
"...Perhaps this is more so with Christians because of their strong belief in absolute objective truth, which demands that two contradictory beliefs can't both be right."
I have never understood how people with such strong beliefs in their god don't give themselves over to their god completely. For instance, I doubt very much that a Christian mother with a seriously ill child would not visit their doctor/hospital and expect intervention on the part of medical science. Doesn't that dilute and even pervert their faith in their chosen deity? Afterall, if it is god's decision to take an offspring, who are we mortals to get in the way? |
As a Christian, would one not believe that an all-encompassing god is present in all things and beings, including himself and that, therefore, one's choices and actions should be considered and determined consciously (within and through our god-given faculties), instead of shedding all responsibility to a separate entity aloft of human sense and reason?
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11/04/2004 05:51:07 PM · #135 |
The idea of 'free will' is very distinct and present in the Bible.
There are a thousand issues to debate concerning Christianity and what we Christians base our Faith on. But the huge thing that is glaringly obvious to every Christian I personally know, is that other people just don't get it and we're put on a pedestal. We're still sinners, we aren't perfect, we are subject to the same temptations and world as everyone else - yes Toto, we all make mistakes. God is very active in my life, and He's also very active in forgiving me. |
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11/04/2004 05:55:37 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
The idea of 'free will' is very distinct and present in the Bible... |
Then why is it that Christians are so pervasively plagued by these issues (as illustrated by Oluzi's example)?
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11/04/2004 06:40:17 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
The idea of 'free will' is very distinct and present in the Bible... |
Then why is it that Christians are so pervasively plagued by these issues (as illustrated by Oluzi's example)? |
The book of Job addresses this question and is actually an interesting read.
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11/04/2004 06:43:33 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by GoldBerry:
The idea of 'free will' is very distinct and present in the Bible... |
Then why is it that Christians are so pervasively plagued by these issues (as illustrated by Oluzi's example)? |
Yes, read Job. Read any of the Bible. People are pulled in a dozen directions at once, Christians are aware of what's at work in their lives, that good and evil - God and Satan are constantly at war. I might be pervasively plaqued, but it's only because I haven't given over my will to God on whatever issue is at hand..it takes work. Once you give up your worries, God takes them and throws them in the Sea of Forgetfullness..He deals with it, but we have to let Him. |
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11/04/2004 07:27:11 PM · #139 |
As far as Jefferson being a Republican, adn that being relevant today --
From what I understand, so was Lincoln, and he wanted to free the slaves. The democrats (perhaps why it is considered the "southern party" to a lot of people), on the other hand, did not.
Both parties have changed so much since their inception, I don't know that a comparison between a Republican/Democrat now, and one 200 years ago is realistic.
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11/04/2004 07:30:29 PM · #140 |
Apologize for entering this thread so late without fully reading the prior posts, but.......
The Bible for me was essentially 3 texts. 1st Historical. 2nd Philosophical. and 3rd Spiritual. Any person can read the entire work with or without the Apocrapha, as just 1 of the 3, 2 of the 3 or all 3. Depending on ones understanding of intents as designed by the original writers. Some readers see the text as literal while others see it as figurative. Still some others see portions as literal and/or figurative.
Regarding the presence of "free will" vs. "determinism" and the philosophical arguments associated with each view, it is my conclusion (after years of study) that "free will" was the intent of many modern translators. Whether one reads the King James, The New Jerueslum, NIV (New International Version) or some other, the red letter editions quote Christ's words as advocating a "choice" on the part of the individual to either accept or not. This is a basic problem for many new converts who are on "fire" with the passion to "save the world's sinners" and constantly are a pest to those who either are not ready or have already decided. For those who are evagelicals and pressing their neighbors for conversion, please remember that even Christ himself did not save the entire population during his walk on earth. He gave the "option" to the peoples of the earth, but they still have to "choose" to accept it. So if Christ's example was teach and let those whom hear, decide.....then that is good enough for me.
Lastly consider that currently we have 3 of the world's major religions (Judiasm, Christianity, and Islam) all awaiting the arrival of the "Savior". For Jews they are awaiting the 1st coming, for Christians they are awaiting the 2nd coming, and for Muslims, they are awaiting the savior as well. This puts the world in the precarious position of being mis-led by one dynamic world leader.
It is the wise, who have studied and understand, so that they can "see".
Flash |
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11/04/2004 07:49:41 PM · #141 |
It is my impression that people who do not have a deep relationship with nature ('nature' in its widest sense) would be more easily torn, swayed or disillusioned than people who do. Any 'idea' of god, especially a dualistic one based on concepts of good and evil, heaven and hell or god and Satan would stand in the way of being one with that which could be him.
I am very fond of nature. Trees, to me, are sufficiently complex for a spiritual embrace.
Truth (or so is my understanding) is rooted similarly.
Message edited by author 2004-11-04 19:50:28.
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11/04/2004 07:53:02 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I've always understood the Torah to be all about God, his promises, and the salvation of God's people.
Sure, life is given high value in the Scriptures, but greater than that is the worship of God...placing him above all else, was it not? |
A famous story tells of a gentile who came to the great rabbi Hillel, and told him he would convert if Hillel could explain the whole Torah to him while standing on one foot. Hillel replied, "What is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah; the rest is commentary. Now go and learn it."
-Terry
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11/04/2004 08:23:59 PM · #143 |
What has turned me away from relgion is that there seems to be, from the western theological view, a great divide between what is spiritual and natural. To me this is very wrong and has been the cause of major problems in the world. Perhaps the exception to this thinking in the west has been the Native American cultures. The spirit exists within the natural and we need to honor and respect this as god's creation and not destroy it. When it is looked at as merely a "resource," as outside of us, as something to be controlled, manipulated and applied, then we deny god. This is true of both animal and plant kingdom.
Eastern cultures and religions do not seem to have this propensity for this division. Nor do they have such fatalistic conceptions, such as heaven and hell, good and evil, and finalistic ideas of death. They exist at the same time in all of us, and in all of nature. One of the most beautiful explanations of life and death I've ever heard comes from
the writings of Alan Watts. His belief in the hereafter was expressed when he analogized the state of death as the equivalent of our unconscious bodily processes, such as peristalsis. We may be unaware of their operations within us, but they exist nonetheless. Maybe our lives/deaths are of the same but only on a grander scale. I like to believe that there is unity and congruence within the entire universe.
Message edited by author 2004-11-04 20:25:08. |
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11/04/2004 10:20:36 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
I've always understood the Torah to be all about God, his promises, and the salvation of God's people.
Sure, life is given high value in the Scriptures, but greater than that is the worship of God...placing him above all else, was it not? |
A famous story tells of a gentile who came to the great rabbi Hillel, and told him he would convert if Hillel could explain the whole Torah to him while standing on one foot. Hillel replied, "What is hateful to you, do not do to others. That is the whole of Torah; the rest is commentary. Now go and learn it."
-Terry |
This is a nice thought and it's certainly contained in the Torah...the way I've read it and understand it, though, is much more about God, his people, and his promises to his people (Abrahamic covenant) which seems to extend into Messianic expectations....
I understand what Hillel said to be the application of the Torah to a scoffer, something which was intended to make him realise that the Torah truly could change his life... |
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11/04/2004 10:38:24 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
What has turned me away from religion... |
Great post, Olyuzi...I have to admit that the same things have turned me off of religion as well.
I never had any intention of being religious and still don't consider myself religious...I feel like C.S. Lewis, who proclaimed himself "the world's most reluctant convert".
I wasn't won over by an idea, nor did I choose which religion I preferred...I often wish that what I believed was less offensive or more universally accepted or that I didn't have a natural inclination against it. Eastern religions would placate much of my yearning.
In the end, however, I've been lead to where I am by a sincere search for truth. It's a personal, subjective experience I'm sharing with you. Proof? You would have to ask the people around me who know me more than I'd like to admit...
Did Jesus deliver on his promise to set Mike free? How does Mike react when stuff doesn't go his way? What are Mike's priorities? Is Mike able to forgive his enemies and love those that hate him?
I think those are the important questions...Jesus said the proof would be in the love that his followers have for one another...I hope that with his help, I'm able to offer a tiny shred of 'proof' to the people around me...
Forgive my rambling.
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11/04/2004 10:44:55 PM · #146 |
"There is not sufficient love and goodness in the world to permit us to give some of it away to imaginary beings." -Nietzsche
If for no other reason; Christians want to show love and mercy? There are millions of humans who could use it a lot more.
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11/04/2004 11:00:57 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
...Jesus said the proof would be in the love that his followers have for one another...I hope that with his help, I'm able to offer a tiny shred of 'proof' to the people around me...
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bingo. |
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11/04/2004 11:51:29 PM · #148 |
Mike, forgiveness not needed, rambling required and THANK YOU for sharing your soul.
There is nothing more spiritual than the search for “truth,” but most people believe this to be an intellectual/scientific exploration, solely, which I think not. The search may have some elements of the mind, but it is as much the heart and soul as anything else. For me, it most strikes a chord when it touches on human values that we all share. I can remember back some 40 years when I was in school and the Rabbis told stories of charity and Mitzvot. Basically, not just doing onto othersâ€Â¦but doing more for others, so that another benefits greatly. I hope that I can embrace another’s frailties, as well as, their strengths.
Religion, like romantic love, is fantasy, as it’s really about what we truly want deep down in our souls. Not about what others tell us we should want and I think as such, a person needs to find this in their own right, and in their own time, and in their own way. Rites of passage come when we are ready to accept them.
Another reason why I have rejected organized religion is because I didn’t share a common vision. I think what we most want is relation to the universeâ€Â¦relation to each other. Seeing not only our differences, but our similarities as well, and rejoicing in them. Spirituality is about choosing to want the good in us and people and the environment. I reject the notion that religion and spirituality has violence in it, as this form of extremism is destructive and can not make us sensitive enough to hear the more powerful subtle messages of our spirituality.
I have felt spirituality mostly at times when nature presented itself in certain ways. It was not just a seeing, but a feeling.
I hope to be able to express my spirituality in my photography, but have a long way to go there...lol
I hope I have made some sense out of my vision.
Originally posted by thatcloudthere:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
What has turned me away from religion... |
Great post, Olyuzi...I have to admit that the same things have turned me off of religion as well.
I never had any intention of being religious and still don't consider myself religious...I feel like C.S. Lewis, who proclaimed himself "the world's most reluctant convert".
I wasn't won over by an idea, nor did I choose which religion I preferred...I often wish that what I believed was less offensive or more universally accepted or that I didn't have a natural inclination against it. Eastern religions would placate much of my yearning.
In the end, however, I've been lead to where I am by a sincere search for truth. It's a personal, subjective experience I'm sharing with you. Proof? You would have to ask the people around me who know me more than I'd like to admit...
Did Jesus deliver on his promise to set Mike free? How does Mike react when stuff doesn't go his way? What are Mike's priorities? Is Mike able to forgive his enemies and love those that hate him?
I think those are the important questions...Jesus said the proof would be in the love that his followers have for one another...I hope that with his help, I'm able to offer a tiny shred of 'proof' to the people around me...
Forgive my rambling. |
Message edited by author 2004-11-04 23:54:12. |
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11/05/2004 08:04:45 AM · #149 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
"There is not sufficient love and goodness in the world to permit us to give some of it away to imaginary beings." -Nietzsche
If for no other reason; Christians want to show love and mercy? There are millions of humans who could use it a lot more. |
It's a good thing that love isn't exclusive and that it doesn't "run out" simply because I love what Nietzsche so fondly referred to as an imaginary being. In fact, it helps me love my neighbour all the more...
For example, will having a child whom I love cause me to love my wife less? No...in fact my love for her will likely increase.
I'm not sure why Nietzsche thought that love was a resource which had to be properly rationed.
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11/05/2004 08:09:38 AM · #150 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
I have felt spirituality mostly at times when nature presented itself in certain ways. It was not just a seeing, but a feeling.
I hope to be able to express my spirituality in my photography, but have a long way to go there...lol
I hope I have made some sense out of my vision.
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Thank you for that post...we have much in common, I think. While you and I may disagree on the why and how, we both feel a strong, spiritual awe in the world around us. Whether it be wildlife or the emotion of people or the magic of a moment, I also hope to be able to express my spirituality in my photography.
We share that vision.
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