Freedom of expression - DPChallenge Forums

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

01/16/2015 08:20:14 AM · #151

Mike, I hardly know where to begin. This is so riddled with errors of logic that I'm wondering if it's just a test, and you're toying with me.

Originally posted by Mike:

a violent response, can be argued is a form of expression.

No it isn't. You are merely conflating two different cases. Expression isn't violence. Violence isn't expression. Confusing one with the other does't make them the same.

Originally posted by Mike:

why do you feel that one ought to be able to say something over the top and not be met with an over the top response?

I don't. You must have been reading something I didn't write here, rather than something I did.

Originally posted by Mike:

i bet if 10 people saw me punch you in the face over your choice of words, i bet at least 9 would say i was justified in punching you. and i bet all 10 would say i was wrong for killing you.

Might isn't right. This observation is irrelevant (has nothing at all to do with freedom of expression).

Originally posted by Mike:

are you saying that ... I should peacefully accept your expression and self censor mine?

No.

Originally posted by Mike:

choosing not to say or do something isn't self-censorship, its having restraint and knowing that actions can be met with unequal reactions and sometimes over reactions. just because you can express your yourself doesn't always mean that you should, you always have to weigh the consequences.

Yes, it is indeed self-censorship. What you describe is precisely what self-censorship means. You regulate yourself, including for the reasons you give. I'm not suggesting it's a bad thing (it's not), I'm merely pointing out that it is not an act of freedom of expression.

Originally posted by Mike:

government involvement in freedom of expression can be seen in two ways, one is to oppress the freedoms for control, the other is merely that we are stupid emotional creatures who far to often act impulsively and we need to be regulated to maintain a civil society. censorship isn't always about tyranny, its about maintaining order.

Governments aren't involved in freedom of expression, they are involved in restricting it. Restricted expression is not free expression. Freedom of expression is absolute, or absent.

But I'm not arguing that universal freedom of expression is the ideal. Not least because most people are flattered by the absence of expression of their opinions. But I do believe that we are best served by a few radicals in every generation who defy governments, flout laws and conventions, offend freely, widely and with gusto, and don't care a fig for public opinion. But I wouldn't want my sister to marry one of them.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

01/16/2015 08:47:18 AM · #152

I think it was Jefferson who said "Your freedom to swing your fist stops at my nose."

damjanev

Nikon D3200

Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G

01/16/2015 10:09:58 AM · #153

Originally posted by ubique:

Mike, I hardly know where to begin. This is so riddled with errors of logic that I'm wondering if it's just a test, and you're toying with me.

Originally posted by Mike:

a violent response, can be argued is a form of expression.

No it isn't. You are merely conflating two different cases. Expression isn't violence. Violence isn't expression. Confusing one with the other does't make them the same.

Continuing your logic, calling my wife a cunt can be considered as an act verbal violence.

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

01/16/2015 10:43:09 AM · #154

violence is an act of physical force, so "verbal violence" doesn't really exist.

i was arguing that expression can be violent not that violence itself is a form of expression.

i dont understand why we are arguing over the semantics of freedom expression. it doesn't matter a lick if refraining from expression is self-censorship, its required where no formal regulation is present so that we may coexist peacefully.

Message edited by author 2015-01-16 10:44:51.

tanguera

Nikon D750

01/16/2015 10:44:07 AM · #155

Paul, I'm curious. Your assertion that we MUST express ourselves verbally or it's not true "freedom", goes directly against one's personal choice to speak or not. Is exercising that choice not "free" choice?

In addition, speaking aloud is just one of many forms of expression. I can just as easily get up and leave a restaurant I don't like as I can stand there and say I don't like it. Actions often speak kouder than words, and individuals must find what best works for them in order to express themselves freely. Perhaps I am misunderstanding that you feel speaking is the only viable form to express freely. If it is what you're saying, it seems to be a rather narrow avenue.

ThingFish

Olympus OM-D E-M5

Panasonic Leica DG Vario-Elmarit 8-18mm f/2.8-4 ASPH

01/16/2015 11:12:00 AM · #156

Charlie Hebdo Founder Blames Slain Editor for Attack and Pope seems to imply that he agrees

//www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/190051#.VLk3rb7_vJV

//www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/190057#.VLk4Mr7_vJV

01/16/2015 11:35:15 AM · #157

victim blaming at its finest.

01/16/2015 12:02:49 PM · #158

Originally posted by tanguera:

I don't know how I can put this any plainer. I'm not asserting that at all. I have never asserted that. I'm saying that choosing to say nothing is not an act of freedom of expression.

If you have a thought, an opinion, and prefer to leave it unexpressed ... that is, you choose to censor yourself ... you are indeed free to do so. It's an act of self restraint. Or prudence. Or judgement. Or consideration. Or kindness. Or cowardice. Or apathy. Any of those is reasonable. What it's not is an act of freedom of expression. Because freedom of expression presupposes that you actually do express something. The one is conditional on the other.

Saying nothing is analogous to practicing safe sex by abstention. You are certainly safe, but you're not having sex.

Message edited by author 2015-01-16 12:04:53.

01/16/2015 12:08:08 PM · #159

Originally posted by ubique:

Originally posted by tanguera:
Paul, I'm curious. Your assertion that we MUST express ourselves verbally or it's not true "freedom", goes directly against one's personal choice to speak or not. Is exercising that choice not "free" choice?

I don't know how I can put this any plainer. I'm not asserting that at all. I have never asserted that. I'm saying that choosing to say nothing is not an act of freedom of expression.

If you have a thought, an opinion, and prefer to leave it unexpressed ... that is, you choose to censor yourself ... you are indeed free to do so. It's an act of self restraint. Or prudence. Or judgement. Or consideration. Or kindness. Or cowardice. Or apathy. Any of those is reasonable. What it's not is an act of freedom of expression. Because freedom of expression presupposes that you actually do express something. The one is conditional on the other.

Saying nothing is analogous to practicing safe sex by abstention. You are certainly safe, but you're not having sex.

who cares?

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED

01/16/2015 12:18:17 PM · #160

Originally posted by Mike:

Originally posted by ubique:

Originally posted by tanguera:
Paul, I'm curious. Your assertion that we MUST express ourselves verbally or it's not true "freedom", goes directly against one's personal choice to speak or not. Is exercising that choice not "free" choice?

I don't know how I can put this any plainer. I'm not asserting that at all. I have never asserted that. I'm saying that choosing to say nothing is not an act of freedom of expression.

If you have a thought, an opinion, and prefer to leave it unexpressed ... that is, you choose to censor yourself ... you are indeed free to do so. It's an act of self restraint. Or prudence. Or judgement. Or consideration. Or kindness. Or cowardice. Or apathy. Any of those is reasonable. What it's not is an act of freedom of expression. Because freedom of expression presupposes that you actually do express something. The one is conditional on the other.

Saying nothing is analogous to practicing safe sex by abstention. You are certainly safe, but you're not having sex.

who cares?

tanguera

Nikon D750

01/16/2015 12:39:36 PM · #161

Actually, I do understand what you are saying. I'm just disagreeing that silence is not a form of expression.

01/16/2015 12:46:58 PM · #162

Originally posted by tanguera:

Actually, I do understand what you are saying. I'm just disagreeing that silence is not a form of expression.

he is correct if you apply the definitions of freedom as the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants without hindrance or restraint and expression as the process of making known one's thoughts or feelings.

01/16/2015 12:47:53 PM · #163

if i may express myself, i find it a bit anal.

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

01/16/2015 01:32:50 PM · #164

Paul, I have a question for you: I'm enrolled (let us say) in a parochial school, and they say the Lord's Prayer every day at beginning of class. As an atheist (hypothetically) I choose NOT to recite the Lord's Prayer. Is not that an expression of "free speech by saying nothing"?

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

01/16/2015 01:58:59 PM · #165

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Although this isn't directed at me, I have two thoughts I feel compelled to share, first, that's not fair, as there is an expectation of a very specific bit of speech which you are foregoing. That's not really the same as not saying something which wasn't expected.

Secondarily, that would almost certainly be done once, and you'd find yourself in need of a new school.

Message edited by author 2015-01-16 13:59:46.

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

01/16/2015 02:02:41 PM · #166

Don't be pedantic, Cory: it is nevertheless exercising the right of free speech by refusing to speak. And yes, there WOULD be tangible consequences meted out by the nuns :-)

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

01/16/2015 02:07:14 PM · #167

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Don't be pedantic, Cory: it is nevertheless exercising the right of free speech by refusing to speak. And yes, there WOULD be tangible consequences meted out by the nuns :-)

Honestly not trying to be overly pedantic about it, as I do see a major distinction.

If there is no expectation of speech, foregoing speaking is not an expression of freedom, only when the speech is expected can it be foregone as a statement of it's own.

Message edited by author 2015-01-16 14:10:33.

01/16/2015 02:12:28 PM · #168

Well,

Ubique was saying that not-speaking is NOT a form of expression, so I was showing how it sometimes CAN be. I understand the distinction you're making. I'm sure Paul will be agreeing with the point I've made, and will explain that wasn't what he intended either :-)

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

01/16/2015 02:19:55 PM · #169

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

You're exercising freedom of choice; your free will. But not freedom of expression. If you also say,"I disagree with this practice because it's [insert disdainful and inflammatory epithet here]" then you're also exercising freedom of expression. Actually the disdainful and inflammatory part isn't essential to meet the case.

The point I'm labouring, to little effect (even those who are tending to be convinced by it aren't in the end much interested in the distinction), is that freedom of expression must be exercised in order to be observed ... by expression! Abstention isn't necessarily dishonourable, but nor is it expression.

The distinction matters, primarily to fellow disciples of Orwell. But it also matters when half the free (sic) world wraps itself in a satirical French magazine as a gesture of solidarity with a concept that they do not themselves believe in. They merely rationalise when they say, "Oh, well I do share their commitment to freedom of expression, but I am personally too well mannered to speak similarly." Freedom of expression is a game played in a stadium without seating. You play, or you don't get in at all.

The Charlie Hebdo cartoonist Willem said it more succicintly than me: "We vomit on all these people who suddenly say they are our friends."

Freedom of choice is an internal issue; you follow your conscience. That can't be abrogated in a free society, even if your choices are foolish or ignorant. But freedom of expression can be regulated in a free (sic again) society, and it increasingly is being so. The key to getting away with that is to have a society that will not speak out for fear of consequences or of offending someone. It's the "You can't say that!" mentality. And it's pervasive in the media and especially the social media. We actually need more anti-social media.

To reiterate, I am not saying it's a bad thing to say nothing. Even I do that, occasionally. And I'm about to do it again now. But it is not freedom of expression; it's freedom of choice.

Message edited by author 2015-01-17 03:06:16.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

01/16/2015 02:48:04 PM · #170

I see what Paul's saying. My point wasn't actually contrary to this. I was more or less giving the opinion that while freedom of expression must be exercised to be observed, it doesn't not need to be exercised to be preserved. As Ross said, we do not become more free by means of more expression. We remain entirely as free whether we express or not.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

01/16/2015 02:58:42 PM · #171

Let me put it this way: If I drop my trousers in front of the judge at my sentencing and moon him, without saying a word, that is still a form of expression, is it not? So is the spraying of graffiti on a wall, and so forth and so on. So we can agree that "expression" does not necessarily involve speech. Now, if my troopmates and I, collectively, decide to NOT recite the pledge of allegiance before our boy scout meeting, and turn our backs on the flag, this also is an "expression without speech". I submit that if we remain silent and unmoving, it still is expression. And if I do it alone, it still is expression. Sometimes silence is a very valid form of expression.

Not all the time, of course, and we'rer splitting logical hairs, so I'll back down. I understand the distinction Paul is making, and I respect it even if I don't entirely agree with it.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

01/16/2015 03:23:30 PM · #172

What's the over/under on the number of middle fingers we see in the challenge?

01/16/2015 03:32:09 PM · #173

Scene: A courtroom. Bear drops trousers and moons judge.

Judge: "Mr Music, you will go to jail for 30 days!"

Bear: "Merde! Was it something I said?"

Exit, pursued by a bear.