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09/22/2014 10:20:41 AM · #26 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
A camera is a piece of equipment as well. So how is that you can use yours to condone and glorify rodeos, an event that has been shown over and over again, to be cruel, abusive, and dangerous to the animals forced to endure its tortures? |
... and if one took a photo of say someone setting themselves ablaze, would you counter that they really ought to have forgotten about capturing the photo and instead rushed out to grab a fire extinguisher to douse the flames.
There does exist some difference between being a spectator at an event and being the source of the pain and/or discomfort that is being inflicted on the animal.
Taking a photo in the first instance is a mere reporting of events and can no more be associated with the glorification of the event than the reporter who photographs horrendous war scenes.
Therein my friend lies the difference... at least from my perspective.
Ray |
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09/22/2014 12:28:02 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Therein lies the difference between using a piece of equipment well, and using it in an abusive manner.
A hammer can be used to drive a nail or smash in a skull. Does that make a hammer a *bad* piece of equipment? |
Any tool can be used in ways that are helpful or harmful...except guns, they are pure evil, with a will of their own to kill.
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09/22/2014 02:46:02 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by snaffles:
Therein lies the difference between using a piece of equipment well, and using it in an abusive manner.
A hammer can be used to drive a nail or smash in a skull. Does that make a hammer a *bad* piece of equipment? |
Any tool can be used in ways that are helpful or harmful...except guns, they are pure evil, with a will of their own to kill. |
Get off your horse...you might fall down and hurt yourself. :O)
Other than target shooting, what other use does a gun have.
To preempt the next series of questions... yes I do have guns and did at one time have a need to wear one to work.
Ray |
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09/22/2014 02:59:20 PM · #29 |
| This is the ethics of photographing wildlife thread -- the gun thread(s) is/are "over there" ... please keep this discussion about photography ... |
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09/22/2014 05:05:33 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by snaffles:
Therein lies the difference between using a piece of equipment well, and using it in an abusive manner.
A hammer can be used to drive a nail or smash in a skull. Does that make a hammer a *bad* piece of equipment? |
Any tool can be used in ways that are helpful or harmful...except guns, they are pure evil, with a will of their own to kill. |
Get off your horse...you might fall down and hurt yourself. :O)
Other than target shooting, what other use does a gun have.
To preempt the next series of questions... yes I do have guns and did at one time have a need to wear one to work.
Ray |
A gun is a tool Ray. Like the hammer, it doesn't have intent or malice. It can be used to provide food, for self defense and for target shooting. As with a hammer, it can also be used to injure and murder. The will to do harm or kill resides solely in the person wielding the tool, not in the tool itself.
I just find it funny when people claim that guns are are inherently "evil" while other tools that can harm and/or kill people are just tools.
It's not the tools they use, it's the people harassing the animals that are bad, regardless of the tool.
Message edited by author 2014-09-22 17:07:22. |
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09/22/2014 05:29:20 PM · #31 |
I waS going to respond but really could not shoehorn something about photography so I won`t bother.
Ray
Message edited by author 2014-09-22 17:30:58. |
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09/22/2014 09:03:12 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
A camera is a piece of equipment as well. So how is that you can use yours to condone and glorify rodeos, an event that has been shown over and over again, to be cruel, abusive, and dangerous to the animals forced to endure its tortures? |
... and if one took a photo of say someone setting themselves ablaze, would you counter that they really ought to have forgotten about capturing the photo and instead rushed out to grab a fire extinguisher to douse the flames.
There does exist some difference between being a spectator at an event and being the source of the pain and/or discomfort that is being inflicted on the animal.
Taking a photo in the first instance is a mere reporting of events and can no more be associated with the glorification of the event than the reporter who photographs horrendous war scenes.
Therein my friend lies the difference... at least from my perspective.
Ray |
Here's how I see it, Ray:
Your example is a genuine human interest story and a photograph of it not only informs but brings up many questions about it, and relates it to other major events happening in the world, as with Thich Quang Duc. It had political ramifications and affected many people worldwide. A rodeo exists merely for commercial and entertainment reasons and has many major promoters. There are probably thousands of similar photos to Snaffle's already out there meant to portray the romantic side of cowboy life. That's glorification and promotion. There's very little real human interest in it.
Message edited by author 2014-09-22 21:55:12. |
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09/22/2014 09:44:41 PM · #33 |
| Guys, guys... let's not pile on Snaffles, OK? It's getting sort of personal. It's one thing to argue another's position, something else entirely to impugn their motivations or integrity, OK? |
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09/23/2014 12:29:46 AM · #34 |
As the creator of this thread, I'll just quickly pop in to mention that I'd probably photograph anything, that I totally adore Snaffles(trust me, she's actually wonderfully kind, I've been in her debt for over a year and she has been so gracious as to not so much as mention it), and that I really dislike rodeos..
Reading through this, it struck me that essentially the problem we're talking about here is not a problem of what to photograph or what we shouldn't photograph, but rather the way in which we present these events through our photographs. No matter what your view is on anything in particular, it is important for all of us to realize that we do hold a great power in the way in which we choose to present our photographs to the world as photographs tell a story with a great power, especially when crafted by a master of the art, or even a really dammed good amatuer.
Message edited by author 2014-09-23 00:53:52. |
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09/23/2014 08:29:35 AM · #35 |
It's all good, Bear. I appreciate you riding to my rescue but not feeling too *piled on*. I understand  Cory's stance on rodeo (and don't worry about the debt, Cory, not important) and even though I'm always a little sad to not get a comment from him on my rodeo shots, I know why.
And as for the rodeo thing as that can also be a hot-button issue. I think it's the roughstock events that Cory objects to most, with the bucking of broncs and bulls. After all, they do tighten a flank strap around the animals' haunches to get them to buck, and want to ensure that the cowboy gets as good a ride as they can. Keep in mind the cowboy only has to be on for 8 seconds. After that it's a matter of loosening the flank strap so the animal stops bucking.
However, having followed the same rodeo production company for three years now (at least when they're in this part of the province) and used my own experience as a professional horseperson for several years to see what's going on, well, I've learned a lot.
For one, the roughstock, or at least Wildhorse Productions', come from the Born to Buck program where horses that are already naturally inclined to buck hard are bred to each other. Wildhorses' stock are very well cared for; their coats are glossy, any horse with scars on him have them from other horses - kick and bite marks. I remember when I shot this pic  and wondering why the horse didn't have a faceful of long hairy whiskers. Heavy Shot clearly doesn't mind being trimmed up so he looks good! Also look at his ears. I teased one of his owners about this and he grinned, glad I noticed :-) In all the shots I have of Heavy, and of most - say 98% of all the broncs - they come out with their ears pricked forward. That's a good sign of a horse enjoying himself. Only a few horses I've seen go out with their ears pinned back in anger. Most of the broncs, once done their job, also enjoy doing a victory lap so the pickup-men have to chase them down to get the flank strap off and get them out of the arena.
I also watch the behind-the-scenes stuff very closely. The broncs crowd each other at the gate when they know things are about to happen. They want to go and do their job. This past year, I saw Heavy Shot at a rodeo and he didn't go on the Saturday, so he was pretty annoyed that he didn't get drawn to go that day. So come Sunday, Heavy was in a really snarly, pissy mood - I already know him well enough to tell that - and warned the cowboy slated to ride him to hang on extra tight. And yep Heavy delivered and won that round! 
I don't have the time to talk about the bulls, but the smart ones will dump the rider, shake their horns at the bullfighters and then peacefully head down the chute and go back to hanging with his buddies the rest of the day.
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09/23/2014 09:45:00 AM · #36 |
When I was I young kid I was asked if I would like to go horseback riding.
I said " Horseback riding that's just rude".
My parents cracked up, I think I was around 7 at the time. My feelings are still the same.
The world is slowly opening it's eyes to zoo's, circuses, Sea world type of parks, and yes rodeos.
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09/23/2014 11:13:52 AM · #37 |
Photography is as much about ethics, as it is about technique, art, content, etc. While as a society we generally agree about what is "right and wrong", as individuals our sensitivity depends on the issue being discussed.
War photographers are notoriously conflicted about capturing the award-winning image of a child on fire or a woman being beaten - should they have helped instead? Some peoples rankles are stirred by the photographing of homeless people. Etc.
With regard to the wild croc vs. rodeo discussion, to me there is a clear distinction: the latter are bred for that purpose, are familiar with the situation, the routine, etc. (And yes, that's a whole other can of worms.) Wild animals who are sought out and antagonized solely for the purpose of getting a great shot is an entirely different matter. To clarify, "antagonizing" does not require touching of any sort, gentle or otherwise.
As I said, my opinion is based solely on what is visible in the video, and I have made the assumption that this is in the wild. If, in fact, this was Chuck the Croc at some theme park, and is used to divers coming in and taking photos, that would significantly affect how I feel about the video.
Part of the issue is that success in any of these "gray" areas of behavior inevitably leads to copycats. I guess it's up for debate as to whether we are responsible for other people's behavior, but I believe in leading by example. |
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09/23/2014 11:23:36 AM · #38 |
| For that matter, ANY intrusion into an animal's environment is going to have an effect. Maybe we humans should just seal ourselves up in the cities and let the animals be. |
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09/23/2014 11:32:10 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
For that matter, ANY intrusion into an animal's environment is going to have an effect. Maybe we humans should just seal ourselves up in the cities and let the animals be. |
The National park people are going to hate this news.
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09/23/2014 01:53:36 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by nygold:
Originally posted by Spork99:
For that matter, ANY intrusion into an animal's environment is going to have an effect. Maybe we humans should just seal ourselves up in the cities and let the animals be. |
The National park people are going to hate this news. |
... as would the drivers in the area where I live. We have so many deer here that I regularly see them in my back yard and have to be right careful when driving on the highways and side roads i the area at certain times of the day.
I am keenly aware of my environment and have (so far) managed NOT to scare or injure any creature, particularly SKUNKS.
Have a great day folks.
Ray |
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09/23/2014 02:22:16 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
We have so many deer here that I regularly see them in my back yard and have to be right careful when driving on the highways and side roads i the area at certain times of the day.
I am keenly aware of my environment and have (so far) managed NOT to scare or injure any creature, particularly SKUNKS.
Have a great day folks.
Ray |
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09/23/2014 03:43:16 PM · #42 |
*deep breath*
OK, I'm dropping the reins on this thread. Not that I don't love a good squabble. But I could go on forever so I'm just going to stop, now. I have quite enough on my plate with a business to run, a household to manage and a relationship to save.
Will come back when the dust settles. |
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09/23/2014 04:56:06 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I am keenly aware of my environment and have (so far) managed NOT to scare or injure any creature, particularly SKUNKS. |
Ran over a skunk once, it ran right in front of my car. Stunk up the bottom of the car for a while.
Last Friday night I stopped short of hitting a possum which was eating something in the road, interesting creature to see in the headlights when I stopped in front of it. Too bad the camera was off and in the back seat. It stared at the car for a moment and ran away. |
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09/23/2014 06:10:22 PM · #44 |
| its quite clear that humans enjoy telling other humans what they can and cant do. |
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09/23/2014 06:45:20 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Mike:
its quite clear that humans enjoy telling other humans what they can and cant do. |
Quite true! And when they don't do as I want, I'm in the habit of gently poking at them with a long stick to get them going ;-) |
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09/23/2014 06:55:46 PM · #46 |
| I zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzap them. :P |
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09/24/2014 09:05:14 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by nygold:
I zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzap them. :P |
Me too... I have Thisin the car just to make sure people move along.
Really good for putting an end to an argument too... just make certain it is accessible only to you. :O)
Ray |
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09/24/2014 03:27:36 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Photography is as much about ethics, as it is about technique, art, content, etc. While as a society we generally agree about what is "right and wrong", as individuals our sensitivity depends on the issue being discussed.
War photographers are notoriously conflicted about capturing the award-winning image of a child on fire or a woman being beaten - should they have helped instead? Some peoples rankles are stirred by the photographing of homeless people. Etc. |
And photojournalists help to inform so that our sensitivities and knowledge is reality based. They could intervene in a given situation but realize that the mission they have chosen for themselves has larger ramifications than one mere instance, no matter how painful it might be to watch and do nothing.
Originally posted by tanquera:
With regard to the wild croc vs. rodeo discussion, to me there is a clear distinction: the latter are bred for that purpose, are familiar with the situation, the routine, etc. (And yes, that's a whole other can of worms.) Wild animals who are sought out and antagonized solely for the purpose of getting a great shot is an entirely different matter. To clarify, "antagonizing" does not require touching of any sort, gentle or otherwise. |
Does not matter a hill of beans what the animal is bred for and what routine they are used to because not all come out as winners and not one has been asked if they'd like to participate or not. Calves are certainly not born to be roped while running scared at high speeds so that their necks jerk backwards violently, thrown to the ground and tied up; horses are not born to have their legs roped and tripped up at high speeds so they hit the ground hard; cattle not born to have their anuses hot-shot," etc, etc, etc.
Originally posted by tanquera:
As I said, my opinion is based solely on what is visible in the video, and I have made the assumption that this is in the wild. If, in fact, this was Chuck the Croc at some theme park, and is used to divers coming in and taking photos, that would significantly affect how I feel about the video. |
What's the difference if an animal is antagonized in the wild or captivity? You don't think rodeo animals are antagonized because they are bred for it? Also, where in John Nygren's video do you see the crocodiles get antagonized? By definition antagonize means to make one hostile. Sorry, but I don't see this.
Originally posted by tanquera:
Part of the issue is that success in any of these "gray" areas of behavior inevitably leads to copycats. I guess it's up for debate as to whether we are responsible for other people's behavior, but I believe in leading by example. |
Yes, this is one thing we agree about. However, it can lead to a slippery slope because as humans no one is perfect and I'm sure that I could find some activity that you do, or anyone else, including myself, that may have negative consequences for animals. eg. If you are not vegetarian does your meat come from animals that have been raised cage-free and killed in the most humane of ways? Do you drive a car that is powered by fossil fuels. Bad for all creatures. If John Nygren's video had clearly shown cruel, inhumane behavior towards the crocs, or even the antagonism you point out without evidence, I could definitely agree with your stance. But in light of your defense of the indefensible I can only think this is a holier than thou argument for you.
edited for poor formatting
Message edited by author 2014-09-24 15:29:03. |
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09/24/2014 04:26:07 PM · #49 |
Jeff, I haven't addressed the rodeo thing because that was not the issue in the OP, and I'm focusing my discussion on that. We could draw parallel human activities all day long, and they would lead to nowhere but the rant section.
Perhaps our disagreement comes from semantics - you seem to believe that "antagonism" has to be "hostile". I'm using the "threatening" definition. In the video, no one is being "hostile" (unless you consider brandishing a "weapon" as hostile), but to a wild creature, merely being surrounded by potential enemies is certainly threatening, even if they're all smiling. |
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09/24/2014 05:24:14 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
... merely being surrounded by potential enemies is certainly threatening, even if they're all smiling. |
I believe the human species is the only one for which the baring of teeth is not seen as a threatening invitation (to be) dinner ... |
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