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08/14/2014 05:01:42 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by scalvert:
If the death of one or even a dozen people due to excessive police force is indicative of a serious problem that calls for a national conversation, then why aren't the deaths of 10,000+ people every year due to gun violence an equally compelling reason to discuss and address that topic? |
Because, guns don't kill people, people kill people, and the police are people. Discussing the tool used to kill is essentially worthless. |
Fine, then we should discuss and address people having access to guns. |
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08/14/2014 05:11:42 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
The problem is, I can't even IMAGINE an enforcement culture, be it police or military or judicial or whatever, that doesn't protect its own. I can't imagine a family that doesn't protect its own, for that matter. |
Vigilantes and militia are at LEAST as self-protective. Isn't it funny how the people who decry government overreach and corrupt police are usually the same ones who demand increased enforcement of existing laws, more border security, police in schools, etc.?
Message edited by author 2014-08-14 17:19:47. |
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08/14/2014 05:13:26 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by scalvert:
If the death of one or even a dozen people due to excessive police force is indicative of a serious problem that calls for a national conversation, then why aren't the deaths of 10,000+ people every year due to gun violence an equally compelling reason to discuss and address that topic? |
Because, guns don't kill people, people kill people, and the police are people. Discussing the tool used to kill is essentially worthless. |
Fine, then we should discuss and address people having access to guns. |
Starting with the police. ;)
Really, I don't deny that the current reality is not the ideal situation, but the fact reamins that it's going to be damned hard to actually improve the situation without making things much worse unintentionally. Much the same as the effect that the militarization of the police has had - it seemed like a good enough idea, but like many things that seem like a good idea, they just don't work out when exposed to the variability and unpredictability that is part and parcel of reality. |
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08/14/2014 05:17:32 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Cory:
it's going to be damned hard to actually improve the situation without making things much worse unintentionally. Much the same as the effect that the militarization of the police has had - it seemed like a good enough idea, but like many things that seem like a good idea, they just don't work out when exposed to the variability and unpredictability that is part and parcel of reality. |
Interesting that the militarization of trained professionals sworn to obey and enforce the law is a serious problem while the militarization of an anonymous public that makes no such promise is fine. |
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08/14/2014 05:25:10 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
it's going to be damned hard to actually improve the situation without making things much worse unintentionally. Much the same as the effect that the militarization of the police has had - it seemed like a good enough idea, but like many things that seem like a good idea, they just don't work out when exposed to the variability and unpredictability that is part and parcel of reality. |
Interesting that the militarization of trained professionals sworn to obey and enforce the law is a serious problem while the militarization of an anonymous public that makes no such promise is fine. |
I don't think equating gun ownership to militarization is at all appropriate or fair. If it were, I would agree with you, but this is a total false premise.
As it is, I think militias are, in fact, NOT a good idea. Hell, strangely enough, while 'well regulated militias' is the phrase used, I don't think they are actually particularly the people I'd choose to own firearms.
Of course, that's totally off-topic, so let's do try to keep this thing out of /rant ok? |
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08/14/2014 05:33:49 PM · #31 |
You see, it's not even really the murder that concerns me, but rather, the continuation of this sort of behavior. Clearly these folks just don't think the rules apply to them.
Message edited by author 2014-08-14 17:34:37. |
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08/14/2014 05:34:47 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I don't think equating gun ownership to militarization is at all appropriate or fair. |
That's OK. You're entitled to be wrong. :-) |
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08/14/2014 05:39:43 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
I don't think equating gun ownership to militarization is at all appropriate or fair. |
That's OK. You're entitled to be wrong. :-) |
If you'd like to start a new thread or PM to discuss this in depth, I'd be perfectly happy to go through the reasons why your premise is totally disingenuous.
In the meantime, does the image that I just posted not disturb you in a deep and very unsettling way?
Message edited by author 2014-08-14 17:41:10. |
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08/14/2014 05:47:29 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by tnun:
And I am not at all sure I agree with the analogy between family and enforcement culture. What do you do when your beloved child goes terribly wrong? |
Not shoot them, that's for sure :-( And anyway, the point is that it's hard to get someone to turn in a family member, you know what I mean? That's just the way it IS. That's all I mean. As a somewhat facile aside, I wonder how many cops have ever given their parents a speeding ticket? |
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08/14/2014 05:58:45 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... I wonder how many cops have ever given their parents a speeding ticket? |
Probably significantly fewer than those who have illegally confiscated a camera or intimidated a citizen with a camera. |
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08/14/2014 06:00:12 PM · #36 |
| Our problem is not the good cops. The problem is with police shooting unarmed people. We have the right to protest and we dont need to be considered hostile people. The police look like they are itching to get back into action. This isnt about being fair to the good cops. The problem is with the shitty cops. These things need to be brought to our attention because there is a problem that definitely needs fixed. FPD does not have dash cams in their squad cars, but they have a S.W.A.T. team ready and complete with snipers and APC's |
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08/14/2014 06:02:49 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by Cory:
If you'd like to start a new thread or PM to discuss this in depth, I'd be perfectly happy to go through the reasons why your premise is totally disingenuous. |
You already failed that discussion by calling for police to lose access to guns while championing citizen armament without apparent concern. No need to embarrass you further.
Originally posted by Cory:
In the meantime, does the image that I just posted not disturb you in a deep and very unsettling way? |
Sure, on face value. We don't know the whole story yet, and the video of that event shows police standing nearby unconcerned by the news crew and apparently startled by the tear gas. |
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08/14/2014 06:07:33 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by mgarsteck:
We have the right to protest and we dont need to be considered hostile people. |
Yes, we do, but some of these protestors are throwing molotov cocktails at police. Let's see what happens with the governor and state highway patrol on scene. |
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08/14/2014 06:09:17 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by tnun:
And I am not at all sure I agree with the analogy between family and enforcement culture. What do you do when your beloved child goes terribly wrong? |
Not shoot them, that's for sure :-( And anyway, the point is that it's hard to get someone to turn in a family member, you know what I mean? That's just the way it IS. That's all I mean. As a somewhat facile aside, I wonder how many cops have ever given their parents a speeding ticket? |
Say, is this an argument for original sin? |
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08/14/2014 06:11:09 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
If you'd like to start a new thread or PM to discuss this in depth, I'd be perfectly happy to go through the reasons why your premise is totally disingenuous. |
You already failed that discussion by calling for police to lose access to guns while championing citizen armament without apparent concern. No need to embarrass you further.
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Pfft. I did no such thing, and I resent you trying to imply I did. |
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08/14/2014 06:13:25 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Pfft. I did no such thing, and I resent you trying to imply I did. |
Does your browser scroll? |
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08/14/2014 06:30:43 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Cory:
Pfft. I did no such thing, and I resent you trying to imply I did. |
Does your browser scroll? |
Yes, as does yours, now go back and read it again.
ETA: You know, I just realized, you may be talking about the joke I made, and followed it up with a ;).. Surely you didn't think I was serious about that comment?
Message edited by author 2014-08-14 18:40:44. |
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08/14/2014 08:00:50 PM · #43 |
Reporter Recounts His Arrest In Ferguson
Originally posted by Program Summary:
Governor Jay Nixon is expected to visit Ferguson, Missouri, today, in the aftermath of last nightâs volatile confrontations between police and protesters â and journalists.
There have been escalating clashes in Ferguson since police shot Michael Brown, an unarmed teenager, in the town on Saturday. Last night, police ratcheted up their response, firing tear gas into the crowd, and using sonic cannons.
Two reporters were among the dozen people arrested. Wesley Lowery of the Washington Post and Ryan Reilly of The Huffington Post were recharging their phones and working inside a McDonaldâs restaurant when police arrived. |
From this account the police are running rampant over the legal/civil/constitutional rights of both citizens and the press. There may be many "good" cops around, but these folks don't seem deserving of inclusion in that subset ...
BTW, if you read the article I linked earlier (concerning a case in Oakland), you'll find that an arbitrator found that the cop who teargassed bystanders who were helping a seriously-wounded protester was "wrongfully terminated" because "he was only following orders." I thought that defense was invalidated at Nuremberg ... |
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08/14/2014 08:40:59 PM · #44 |
this is what I find so perplexing in Bear's response. just because it is "natural" for police and siblinghoods and families to "protect" their own, and for subordinates to follow the orders of their superiors, it doesn't make it right. - am I missing something here? although I am not sure there will ever be justice meted out for war crimes, I do not feel obliged to single out the good nazis or the good Guantanamo Bay interrogators every time I want to express my indignation.
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08/14/2014 09:39:20 PM · #45 |
Why Ferguson's police department uses military weapons
Originally posted by Linked Program:
by David Gura
After President Barack Obama saw images and video from Ferguson, Mo., where a police officer shot an unarmed 18-year-old over the weekend, he urged police there to be âopen and transparent.â He also called for officers and protesters alike âto take a step back and think.â
Five days after the shooting, protests have swelled, and the police have been using what looks like pretty sophisticated, military-style weapons and gear. Many police departments across the country have that kind of equipment. And thanks to federal government programs, they have been amassing more of it.
The Pentagon has what it calls a âDisposition Servicesâ department. Its mandate, quite simply, is to dispose of stuff. A list of whatâs available includes night-vision goggles, combat uniforms, tear gas, grenades and M16s.
Robert Kane heads the department of criminology and justice studies at Drexel University, and he says the Defense Department has sold billions of dollars of equipment at bargain basement prices.
âYou know, an armored personnel carrier can cost somewhere along the lines of $780,000, maybe even $800,000, and sometimes the police department can get that for $3,000,â he says.
There are also grants available, Kane says.
State and local police departments have dealt with the DOD for decades, but Congress formalized that relationship in the 1990s, during the war on drugs and after the Los Angeles riots.
âLaw enforcement was in many instances outgunned and out-equipped from a technical standpoint,â says Jim Pasco, executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police.
After Sept. 11, departments acquired new surveillance equipment, along with new vehicles and weapons.
David Harris, a law professor at the University of Pittsburgh, worries some departments rely on these high-end tools more and more. âYouâve got the stuff," he says. "'Isnât this the occasion to use it?â goes the thinking.â
You'd use it to break up protests. Even to deliver a warrant.
âWhen you militarize the equipment, and you militarize the personnel, you are also militarizing the situation and that can lead to escalation,â Harris says.
Police need the best training and the most suitable weapons, he says, but departments need to consider carefully how and when they use them.
Featured in: Marketplace for Thursday August 14, 2014 |
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08/14/2014 09:48:13 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by tnun:
this is what I find so perplexing in Bear's response. just because it is "natural" for police and siblinghoods and families to "protect" their own, and for subordinates to follow the orders of their superiors, it doesn't make it right. - am I missing something here? although I am not sure there will ever be justice meted out for war crimes, I do not feel obliged to single out the good nazis or the good Guantanamo Bay interrogators every time I want to express my indignation. |
I really shouldn't have made that response. The incident being referenced by Cory, in Ferguson, is so outrageous one can't help but be dismayed, and I AM dismayed, make no mistake of it.
My response was more based on a history, with Cory, of his bringing to our attention over and over again cases of police malfeasance, and on the thread title, which implies that all police in the USA are out of control, so I was reacting to that. I wondered if Cory might ever show us an example of good cops going above and beyond, because they DO.
But, let me reiterate, this is an APPALLING situation in Ferguson, the tear-gassing in Oakland was grotesque, I'm absolutely not making excuses for any of it. My comments about police protecting their own were meant to address the reality of the culture, not to express my approval of it. I have my own, personal experiences with police bullshit that I'd be happy to relate sometime, but not now and not in this thread, which I have already derailed too much...
Sorry. |
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08/14/2014 11:12:33 PM · #47 |
thank you, Bear. Actually, I quite value Cory's bringing these things to my/our attention. And just recently The New Yorker has been doing the same.
it is also true that I can go quite berserk trying to argue with him. |
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08/14/2014 11:14:57 PM · #48 |
| and thank you general: chilling but not surprising. |
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08/15/2014 12:08:30 AM · #49 |
Originally posted by tnun:
and thank you general: chilling but not surprising. |
From my personal perspective, the most telling of the comments alluded to by  GeneralE is the following:
âWhen you militarize the equipment, and you militarize the personnel, you are also militarizing the situation and that can lead to escalation,â Harris says.
Police need the best training and the most suitable weapons, he says, but departments need to consider carefully how and when they use them."
Having spent 30 years in the RCMP and having dealt with some serious confrontations I can assure you that there were instances where I really wished we had more and better equipment.
Sadly, we seem to have transcended that requirement and morphed the daily operations of the police departments into full blown military assaults on the population.
Things have indeed changed... but have they really gotten better.
Ray |
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08/15/2014 07:07:39 AM · #50 |
...
Message edited by author 2014-08-15 07:10:14. |
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