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 09/19/2004 09:02:51 PM · #1
I have been shooting in Adobe RGB on my Canon 300D and converting to sRGB workspace in PhotoshopCS to prepare them for posting on the Web. The shots look okay, though a little dark, when I open them on my Mac using the Preview application, but when I open them in Photoshop in sRGB they become so dark that they are unusable without significant lightening. Then if I try to print the photos that I have lightened enough so that they look fine on my monitor (which has been calibrated), they look too light on paper.

I would love to be able to use just one color profile for posting photos online and printing them. Is that possible, or do I have to work on two copies of the same pictures for printing and posting? Is there a simple way to get good results when printing and posting in just one color profile?

Thanks!
 09/19/2004 09:53:17 PM · #2
Try using "Adobe RGB (1998)" instead. It's supposed to be the best for prints, and also good for posting on the Net. That's what I use and get very consistent results.
 09/19/2004 10:16:16 PM · #3
That's bad advice, regardless of personal experience. Adobe RGB is a working space. Use sRGB for your web images. Use sRGB for DPCprints-destined images.

To isolate workflow issues, you'll have to be ever-so-precise about the details of your workflow. You might even post samples.

The answers to your questions will be sufficiently positive (closer to yes) if you are willing to "put the blinders on" as it were.
 09/19/2004 10:16:17 PM · #4
Thanks, Chris. I'll try that and see what kind of difference it makes.
 09/19/2004 10:46:36 PM · #5
I'm not sure I follow your post, DW. I wrote every step in my processing in the original post that has anything to do with this issue. I have my camera set to shoot in Adobe RGB. I have Photoshop set to convert images to sRGB, which is what I work in and how I save the photos. From the moment I open the photos in Photoshop in sRGB, they look much darker than they did on my camera's viewfinder and darker than they do when I open them in another application.

I'm just wondering if this is typical and if there is a workspace that accommodates both printing and posting online well. I'll try leaving the pictures in AdobeRGB, but I don't understand what you mean when you say that it's just a working space. That's actually the prepress default in Japan, rather than CMYK. Is there a problem with Adobe RGB that makes you say that saving files in that workspace is a bad idea?

I'm not contesting anything you're saying, DP, I just don't understand it, which I suppose is why I started this thread in the first place .:-)
 09/19/2004 10:48:17 PM · #6
Multiple copies for printing and posting is a good idea. Besides color space considerations, the resolution is quite different, which also affects the final sharpening needed. I like to work as much as I can on one "device-independent master", then make copies and do individual modifications needed for each specific final output format. This would include converting to sRGB for web output.

The advantage to using Adobe RGB is that it has a wider gamut than sRGB, including some colors (mostly dark saturated ones) that a printer can reproduce but not a monitor. Converting to sRGB before printing removes this advantage, so you might as well shoot in sRGB and use the same color space throughout your workflow.

I don't know that I can help much to prevent your photos from looking dark. Perhaps Photoshop is using the wrong monitor profile. Or it isn't recognizing that the photo is in sRGB and interpreting it as Adobe RGB (are you sure you save the color profile with the sRGB image?). Check your Color Settings box and make sure everything is correct. In particular, make sure the "Ask when opening" options are checked, and check the selection list for the RGB Working Space and make sure the profile next to "Monitor RGB" is the one you created when you calibrated your monitor. But I'm getting beyond my experience here...
 09/19/2004 11:04:19 PM · #7
Scott Kelby's THE PHOTOSHOP BOOK FOR DIGITAL PHOTOGRAPHERS also notes that Adobe RGB (1998) is the best working space. He has little good to say about sRGB and is vociferous in denouncing it as "the worst possible working space for professional photographers." So I've been using Adobe RGB some time now with good results.
 09/19/2004 11:19:53 PM · #8
Originally posted by PhilipDyer:
I wrote every step in my processing in the original post that has anything to do with this issue.

Okay.

Originally posted by PhilipDyer:
I have my camera set to shoot in Adobe RGB. I have Photoshop set to convert images to sRGB, which is what I work in and how I save the photos.

Okay, you're shooting JPEGs presumably. When you save your photos, is the profile embedded or not? What is your RGB working space (found in Color Settings)?

Originally posted by PhilipDyer:
From the moment I open the photos in Photoshop in sRGB, they look much darker than they did on my camera's viewfinder and darker than they do when I open them in another application.

How was your monitor calibrated? After calibration, did you save the generated profile and start using it (via the O/S interface)?

Originally posted by PhilipDyer:
I'm just wondering if this is typical and if there is a workspace that accommodates both printing and posting online well.

Short answer is maybe. It likely depends on your lab (or other requirements downstream). AdobeRGB is a popular intermediate space (for working and delivery). Many minilabs just ask for sRGB.

You didn't say whether your end goal was to produce good prints on any conceivable printer in the universe, just at home, just at dpcprints, et cetera.

Originally posted by PhilipDyer:
I'll try leaving the pictures in AdobeRGB, but I don't understand what you mean when you say that it's just a working space. That's actually the prepress default in Japan, rather than CMYK. Is there a problem with Adobe RGB that makes you say that saving files in that workspace is a bad idea?

Yes, AdobeRGB is a popular intermediate space (i.e. you work on it a bit, hand it off to the next person to possibly modify, and finaly someone gets it ready for printing which likely involves conversion, though perhaps not). AdobeRGB is neither input (device) nor output (device) space, which is why I say it's a working space. This does not mean you can't deliver images in that space, but when you are targeting the image for particular output devices directly, you shouldn't leave them in Adobe RGB (unless you are told to - find out from your downstream people).

My answer was restricted entirely to the wonderful world of dpc (i.e.web and dpcprints). The future might bring some great things (it's batting .000 so far), but until then images intended for (viewing on) the web should be converted to sRGB. Images intended for printing with dpcprints should be converted to sRGB.

Message edited by author 2004-09-19 23:21:01.
 09/19/2004 11:55:24 PM · #9
Thanks Doc, David and also DW for your additional explanation. Your signature about people being stupid is correct in this case since I neglected to mention that I am just printing on my own Canon 860i at home and not preparing anything for prepress. I understand what you're saying about Adobe RGB being an intermediate working space, but my only two output devices are posting here on DPC and printing on my 860i. I was just hoping that a single profile would be able to accommodate both and it sounds like AdobeRGB is a pretty good one for someone with my limited knowledge of color management. I'll give it a shot and see how my results turn out.
 09/20/2004 12:28:47 AM · #10
You will also want to check your proof setup under the View menu. If you are on a Mac and you have your view set to Windows or CMYK, it will be darker. Rather, it will be as it appears in print and to Windows folks. I have my proof setup on CMYK, since they don't have an RGB one for printing, and it's in print that I care about more than the Web.
 09/20/2004 01:56:43 AM · #11
You're right, David, that is another element that affects how the image appears onscreen. I leave mine set to Monitor RGB and have found that to be the best setting for me to work in and post online because of how much darker the image can appear on PCs as opposed to Macs. It's just since I started using AdobeRGB on the camera and sRGB in Photoshop that I started having issues with darkness. I'll try AdobeRGB all the way through and double-check in CMYK view before printing.

I just got that book by Scott Kelby as well and am going to memorize every single word of it. :-)
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