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11/12/2013 12:37:05 PM · #1 |
Clearly, too many DPC'ers are either unable to read them, or wilfully ignore them. They serve as nothing more than frustrating handicaps for those who can read and know how to follow directions.
Yeah, sure, of course the give coherence to a challenge, and ensure some level of greater uniformity, set expectations, etc.
But, we're all about the photos here, yep. No need to compromise your 'art' in the name of competing fairly in a challenge.
Heck, in fact, why do we even have challenge subjects, even those are ignored by some, and misinterpreted by many, which clearly just causes hard feelings from those who are here to share their 'art'.. Every challenge should be a freestudy - that way we're not unfairly restricting anyone's creativity.
Indeed - it now occurs to me that the challenge format is entirely wrong for us here. In fact, we should probably just all go to Flickr, because they have rules that make everyone happy, and allow us to truly express our creativity without all of these unfair and damaging restrictions.
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Think it over... Have a great day..... |
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11/12/2013 12:42:50 PM · #2 |
Reasons to eradicate challenge descriptions:
1. Most challenge topics are clear from the title.
2. Our ESL members don't understand or don't read the descriptions anyway.
3. Most challenge descriptions are poorly written and/or misunderstand the challenge topic they are supposedly describing.
Challenge descriptions should be reserved for special cases only when instructions are needed. |
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11/12/2013 12:48:33 PM · #3 |
I have long been frustrated by people who do not follow the challenge description or who become upset when I do not think their photo meets the challenge. I do not understand why people sign up for a site where the goal is to meet a challenge then refuse to do so because it is too restrictive.
These types of discussions have been going on ever since I joined, and will probably continue as long as the site is around. |
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11/12/2013 12:51:28 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Reasons to eradicate challenge descriptions:
1. Most challenge topics are clear from the title.
2. Our ESL members don't understand or don't read the descriptions anyway.
3. Most challenge descriptions are poorly written and/or misunderstand the challenge topic they are supposedly describing.
Challenge descriptions should be reserved for special cases only when instructions are needed. |
I wouldn't mind getting rid of the descriptions if the title is clearly stated. |
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11/12/2013 12:54:13 PM · #5 |
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11/12/2013 12:55:21 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Reasons to eradicate challenge descriptions:
1. Most challenge topics are clear from the title.
2. Our ESL members don't understand or don't read the descriptions anyway.
3. Most challenge descriptions are poorly written and/or misunderstand the challenge topic they are supposedly describing.
Challenge descriptions should be reserved for special cases only when instructions are needed. |
I completely agree with #3, although lately  Langdon has been doing pretty good.
#2 seems to be untrue, at least for our ESL forum participants (their written English is often much better than many native speakers)
#1 is also true - but I think you're discounting the value of the additional coherence that is added through a well written description. |
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11/12/2013 01:04:33 PM · #7 |
The narrowness of the challenges and finding a clever way to meet them is the best feature of this site. There is always some frustration when voters fail to read and understand the description of the challenge, or fail to grasp the brillliance of my efforts to answer that call.
The modest proposal of getting rid of descriptions or even challenges, would allay those frustrations, but our reach will always exceed our grasp. |
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11/12/2013 02:27:35 PM · #8 |
| I think we totally eliminate DNMC all together... Leave the descriptions alone and let's go after that monster! |
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11/12/2013 02:39:05 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Reasons to eradicate challenge descriptions:
1. Most challenge topics are clear from the title.
2. Our ESL members don't understand or don't read the descriptions anyway.
3. Most challenge descriptions are poorly written and/or misunderstand the challenge topic they are supposedly describing.
Challenge descriptions should be reserved for special cases only when instructions are needed. |
+1 from me. Give me a title/subject/theme - as an entrant or a voter - and let me interpret it. |
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11/12/2013 02:44:08 PM · #10 |
| Strongly disagree. Lighten up, folks, and enjoy the scenery. I find the descriptions crucial to understanding some challenges. What may be obvious to you is not necessarily obvious... |
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11/12/2013 03:44:10 PM · #11 |
I personally like the descriptions for a challenge. For one, because I haven't been photographing long (about 2 yrs or so), I am not familiar with topics. The descriptions shows me what to look for in my subjects especially when in the field. During the challenges and as a new challenge comes up, I write them down and the description so that I can make my pictures to meet those challenges.
However, if I do see a picture that doesn't meet those challenge I will grade them low.
JMHO :) |
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11/12/2013 04:02:47 PM · #12 |
Once on April 1 I left a comment 'dnmc 1' on every entry in a challenge. Some thought it funny and some were seriously offended. You could build on that dichotomy.
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11/12/2013 04:17:59 PM · #13 |
Not meeting the challenge description is not cheating.
Breaking the editing rules, or site rules, is cheating.
perhaps because of a competitive nature, or update button addiction, I will occasionally stretch the description or ignore it altogether, and sometimes i don't get the concept, but with "Belly Button lint 4" and "Ear Wax 2"- can you blame a guy?
Message edited by author 2013-11-12 17:05:52. |
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11/12/2013 04:38:05 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by blindjustice:
...with "Belly Button lint 4" and "Ear Wax 2"- can you blame a guy? |
 I once knew a doctor who would have no problem sewing up a gash on your arm or draining an abscess, but could not stand to stay in the room while I flushed-out someone's ear wax ... dang, I should have entered "cerumenophobia" last week !!!
Message edited by author 2013-11-12 16:39:41. |
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11/12/2013 04:44:11 PM · #15 |
| Cory, why must the challenge description be equated with following directions? |
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11/12/2013 05:01:46 PM · #16 |
| I love Challenge descriptions, it lets me know exactly what box to avoid.. |
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11/12/2013 05:07:40 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
...with "Belly Button lint 4" and "Ear Wax 2"- can you blame a guy? |
I once knew a doctor who would have no problem sewing up a gash on your arm or draining an abscess, but could not stand to stay in the room while I flushed-out someone's ear wax ... dang, I should have entered "cerumenophobia" last week !!! |
That's a Rebus! That would be a good challenge. No description needed. Look it up if you don't know it. |
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11/12/2013 05:29:31 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by bspurgeon:
Cory, why must the challenge description be equated with following directions? |
How can it not be? |
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11/12/2013 05:41:37 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by bspurgeon:
Cory, why must the challenge description be equated with following directions? |
Right. Here's the problem as I see it: MOST of the time, it's perfectly reasonable to work from the title of the challenge, and to the extent that the description serves any purpose at all, it's as an aid for people who really DON'T quite get the concept. We've always more-or-less accepted that, it seems to me. And it's a good thing, because many of our challenge descriptions have borne at best a tenuous relationship to the reality of the topic.
Take the current challenge, "negative space": there are a LOT of interesting ways to go based on those words. But by restricting the challenge simply to that category of negative space that represents a surround to offset a "subject" you have perforce eliminated ALL images that do not HAVE subjects, so one classic example of the opposition of negative and positive spaces, the yin-yang symbol, doesn't meet the challenge!
How crippling is that? And I don't even mean to pick on this challenge in particular, because this has happened many times.
I'm wondering if we're at the point where a challenge NEEDS explication, shouldn't we be flagging the description as a *rule* for the purposes of the challenge? That oughta' weed out unnecessary descriptions pretty quickly :-) Can you imagine the uproar from SC if they had to determine whether an entry "has a subject" and, if it does, is the subject surrounded by "negative space"? They couldn't do it and they wouldn't do it. So why are any of us trying to persuade voters to do exactly that? Makes no sense... |
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11/12/2013 05:59:08 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by bspurgeon:
Cory, why must the challenge description be equated with following directions? |
Right. Here's the problem as I see it: MOST of the time, it's perfectly reasonable to work from the title of the challenge, and to the extent that the description serves any purpose at all, it's as an aid for people who really DON'T quite get the concept. We've always more-or-less accepted that, it seems to me. And it's a good thing, because many of our challenge descriptions have borne at best a tenuous relationship to the reality of the topic.
Take the current challenge, "negative space": there are a LOT of interesting ways to go based on those words. But by restricting the challenge simply to that category of negative space that represents a surround to offset a "subject" you have perforce eliminated ALL images that do not HAVE subjects, so one classic example of the opposition of negative and positive spaces, the yin-yang symbol, doesn't meet the challenge!
How crippling is that? And I don't even mean to pick on this challenge in particular, because this has happened many times.
I'm wondering if we're at the point where a challenge NEEDS explication, shouldn't we be flagging the description as a *rule* for the purposes of the challenge? That oughta' weed out unnecessary descriptions pretty quickly :-) Can you imagine the uproar from SC if they had to determine whether an entry "has a subject" and, if it does, is the subject surrounded by "negative space"? They couldn't do it and they wouldn't do it. So why are any of us trying to persuade voters to do exactly that? Makes no sense... |
Robert your input is once again very insightful. But apparently your example of the negative space challenge may fall foul of the forum police via the new unwritten rule of not discussing the meaning of challenge whilst in the voting phase! ;)
Silly as it may seem THEY did set a precedent!! |
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11/12/2013 06:08:27 PM · #21 |
It's very interesting looking back in the forums at this very same topic over the years!
Selective quotes from  graphicfunk
04/06/2005
This is a universal problem with no easy answer: the challenge as specified and then the interpretation. Not everyone responds in a similar manner due to temperement of character. Often, there is no clear cut explanation of what is wanted. Yes, it would be an ideal world if there was a closer coupling between the worded challenge and its execution true to the intent, but then we are trapped by the use of language and many of us do not excell in its finer points. Even those that do disagree because the written or spoken words often runs away from our control. That is at times we specify what we want only to find out that the words do not carry the full conviction of our meaning and what we said is open to different interpretations.
Well, I make it a point to always go against the grain and to find the weakness in the instructions to allow poetic flight. This is who I am and I never vote down any deviation that goes near the edge of the meaning of the challenge.
It appears to me that some people are very strict in the art of interpretation and my advise is that such strictness curtails creativity. They will always think twice of outdoing themselves because the urge may be too near the outer edge. I am not advocating pushing the envelope to a fracture, but nothing is gained by walking the safe line.
Message edited by author 2013-11-12 18:08:59. |
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11/12/2013 06:51:50 PM · #22 |
| An interesting forum to follow with some great points made. I'm leaning towards removing descriptions at this point. The current challenge "Natural Body of Water II" has a description that doesn't match the title. Seems like more confusion is generally created by the description than title. |
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11/12/2013 06:58:09 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by insteps:
An interesting forum to follow with some great points made. I'm leaning towards removing descriptions at this point. The current challenge "Natural Body of Water II" has a description that doesn't match the title. Seems like more confusion is generally created by the description than title. |
Yeah... Dam is a man made container!
I still think we just have to get rid of DNMC, not the description...
Message edited by author 2013-11-12 19:00:11. |
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11/12/2013 07:39:59 PM · #24 |
I would certainly champion the cause for removing the description. Very rarely does it add anything of substance. All it succeeds in doing is giving folks reason to DNMC based on a myopic viewpoint of the challenge.
Post the challenge and let ME decide as a viewer how to interpret an entry on my own grounds. |
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11/12/2013 08:19:50 PM · #25 |
| I look at the challenge as I would an assignment from a customer. It would not be up to me to decide if a photo of a black cat fills the order for a photo of a red shoe, and I would lose the job if I tried to push it. Why is a challenge any different? |
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