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09/20/2013 11:29:56 PM · #1 |
No, this thread is NOT about voting practices or anything else to do with DPC. Just some navel-gazing but would like some feedback.
Overall, I find that the whole concept of fair play, in all and any aspect of life, is definitely on the decline. Opportunism and looking out for only yourself is the theme of the 21st century. There is no such thing as a level playing field anymore.
I know many people would just say 'Well duh, be just as opportunistic and do everything you can to skew things to your advantage too'....and though I can act like that and certainly have done so, my basic nature is not like that at all.
When I was a kid growing up back in the 70s, I was taught to question that, when faced with a difficult choice (usually involving something dubious), to ask not if it was wrong to do it, but was it right. Didn't anyone else learn that?
Fast-forward to this evening. I was playing a vintage board game called Careers (it has some pretty frickin hilarious 70s art on the cover)with my bf.
In this game, there are two kinds of card to help you progress through the course of the game. Naturally you win and lose cards according to the roll of the dice. Some cards kinda suck, others will help a great deal.
Now, there are no rules stating that you HAVE to play the cards you collect, though it usually does behoove you to play them. So there I was, playing the game, playing the cards I picked up so they got back into the pile for future use; this meant the bf also had the chance to play them.
However, he chose to hoard most of the cards he picked up. There are only about 70 cards total in the entire game. By the end, I had only 5-6 cards.
Meanwhile, he was sitting on 30+ cards. Guess who won?
That's when I got pissed off and called him out on his hoarding. Not because I'm a sore loser, though of course I am, according to him. The fact of the matter is, he sat on his cards like a dog in the manger. He had no intention of playing most of them; he was simply keeping them out of circulation. Of course that affected my opportunities, because there were far fewer cards to pick up.
Like I said, there is no rule stating that players can't/shouldn't hoard cards. But I don't see it as being right to do so either.
So...thoughts? Comments? My navel's getting kinda linty.
Message edited by author 2013-09-20 23:32:29. |
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09/20/2013 11:42:15 PM · #2 |
| The object of a game is to win, and if the game has a set of rules, to win without violating any of the rules. Given any set of rules, there are multiple strategies that will allow you to win the game. With the rules you stated, his strategy worked and yours did not. Neither of you violated those rules, so it was a fare played game with a winner. |
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09/21/2013 12:14:25 AM · #3 |
| Show me people who are WILLING to spread the goodies around more than the rules of the game demand, and I'll show you social gameplayers who don't stand a chance against people like me or, apparently, Ryan. There's nothing "wrong" with what he's doing. If it's too cutthroat for you, then you need to find something else to do with your time together than play games that rile you up :-) Or convince him to be a social player, but it's hard for me to do that, frankly. |
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09/21/2013 12:28:55 AM · #4 |
I used to have "Careers" but never let my sister play it when she wanted to play it with her friends. Not very fair on my part. :-(
Careers
Message edited by author 2013-09-21 00:31:28. |
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09/21/2013 03:31:57 AM · #5 |
I agree with Bear, Susan. You seem to be confusing competition with fairness. I don't think competitiveness is, in and of itself, a "bad" thing. All sports are based on it. Heck, all of life is based on it. As long as he wasn't cheating, he was likewise not being "unfair".
My mom and I love playing Scrabble with each other because are completely uncompetitive. We help each other when a hand is too challenging or can't find a spot on the board. But we don't play with anyone else, because they're WAY too competitive and won't help a girl out :-) |
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09/21/2013 05:12:38 AM · #6 |
I suggest you do one of the following;
Get out more
Get a new game
Get a new bf
Or perhaps all of them. |
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09/21/2013 05:23:33 AM · #7 |
Do not stop playing, make your own rules [clear up grey areas] to enjoy the game. Only 5 cards allowed to be kept back. The idea is to have the cards in the game, isn't it?
Some people need to win much more than others, and are then generous so, for example, if you do get the three-week holiday because he won, then consider yourself a happy couple and enjoy life. This is called strategy - hehe.
Strategy is different from using grey areas to your advantage. The problem here was in the interpretation of the rules, and that is always seen through one's own competition-driven glasses.
Competitive advantage includes knowing the rules better than the next player, but I do not think it was a factor here.
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09/21/2013 07:12:39 AM · #8 |
Gosh.
Fair play begs the question of playing games, which is to say that it is assumed that games are being played when and wherever the concept of fair play is introduced.
In the case of most sports and formal games, rules are written down and the idea of fair play is an idea of some overriding moral guidance for individual behaviour.
For professional sports, there are a whole lot of rules written down because, as I wander into the realm of my humble opinion etc, fair play is the antithesis of winning mentality. I never was much a fan of winning mentalities, but I can put up with them on my team.
The existence of a recorded set of rules may well be a definition of what I call(ed) formal games. Informal games, like having a boyfriend or posting on dpc, or talking to check out personnel, have no written or recorded rules but nevertheless are played within a framework of assumed rules. Knowledge and recognition of such rules is something like what we might call \'a good upbringing\'. Proper behaviour is fair play within the rules, although neither fair play nor the rules are written down. I\'d say that fair play is important if not essential if we accept that we are engaged in informal games, or irrelevant if we deny it.
Editing to add that I object to having backslashes added to my apostrophes, so I am resigning from dpc.
Message edited by author 2013-09-21 07:14:57. |
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09/21/2013 07:13:16 AM · #9 |
Not one comment on the premise of her post. Only comments on the example. Astounding.
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09/21/2013 07:15:32 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by Erastus:
Not one comment on the premise of her post. Only comments on the example. Astounding. |
Hey! |
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09/21/2013 07:49:40 AM · #11 |
| No time for full rant. Yes, I see a decrease in fairness (and a lot of other positive qualities), and even more so over the past several years. When a society leaves the realm of arbitrary rules, it leaves everyone doing what they think is right. Contrary to popular belief, people do not tend to act altruistically, but selfishly. Yes, people can choose to act with the interests of others in mind, but without years of practice and some good internal motivation, it is a conscious effort. And even then... We think of ourselves much more kindly than we probably deserve. |
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09/21/2013 08:14:03 AM · #12 |
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09/21/2013 08:38:46 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Erastus:
Not one comment on the premise of her post. Only comments on the example. Astounding. |
I don't think board game is a fair example of the premise. Life comes with many situations where the only rules are "accepted social norms", which unfortunately means it is open to interpretation by everyone. There are also plenty of examples in life where there are very specific rules which are broken on a regular basis, and few would actually care, depending on the context in which they are broken. Driving 10km over the limit on the highway is an accepted social norm, not even law enforcement would care, do it in a school zone and you will piss off a lot of people.
Most games are completely expected to be played by the listed rules, and as long as you don't break those rules, everything is fair game, unless of course you decide on changing said rules BEFORE you play.
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09/21/2013 10:39:29 AM · #14 |
Remind me not to play "Hearts" with you my dear friend...I fear it would permanently kill our friendship. :O)
Ray |
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09/21/2013 10:43:59 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Remind me not to play "Hearts" with you my dear friend...I fear it would permanently kill our friendship. :O) |
Don't tell me you're one of those people who takes it personally when he gets targeted? And you a COP-person? Sheesh :-) |
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09/21/2013 10:54:51 AM · #16 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Remind me not to play "Hearts" with you my dear friend...I fear it would permanently kill our friendship. :O) |
Don't tell me you're one of those people who takes it personally when he gets targeted? And you a COP-person? Sheesh :-) |
Not me my friend... I am one of those who will keep the Queen of Spades and dole it out to whom I truly think deserves it... I might add, that once I get to know the players involved and who is passing me the cards, I have been known to try to control things.
My comment was aimed specifically at our friend the OP and that she would really not enjoy playing cards with me.
When I was much younger, I can honestly say that there is very little that I played strictly for fun...my primary ambition was to win.
I guess having 6 brothers and 6 sisters makes one at tad more prone to engaging in competition.
PS: To this day I don't get angry...I try to get even :O)
Ray
Message edited by author 2013-09-21 10:56:02. |
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09/21/2013 11:07:27 AM · #17 |
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09/21/2013 11:28:38 AM · #18 |
Still half-asleep and on my first coffee, but just a few notes...first off, thanks all for the candid feedback. Last night was by no means the first time that we've played the game and he's used that particular tactic; in fact it's been his go-to tactic for some time.
And though it's annoyed me in the past, last night it just really got to me more than it has before. There has been a wave of tremendous personal and emotional stressors in my life recently - literally all within the last week - and last night the game and his tactic, which of course I should be used to by now, just seemed to turn into an emotional match for a fire all ready to burn.
...Herman, the idea isn't so much to get all the cards so you win, but to meet certain goals in the gain by collecting cash and points in order to get them. There are areas where you may have a salary increase or get a bonus, or have all your cash on hand snatched away by a bad roll of the dice. So as with life much depends on the roll of the dice.
...Joanne, you do have a point with the competition/fair play thing. By nature I am a highly competitive person. But I still have a tremendously strong sense of playing fair, as must be obvious by now. For example I wasn't able to accept a recent job because I was already booked up, so I passed on the name of a worthy competitor. Ryan was horrified! 'Babe, you don't help out the competition!' blahblahblah...mind he works in a very specialized retail field, I have always been in the service industry which is swarming with competition.
Back when I was still working with horses, at least 2x a year I'd recommend another trainer to clients. He never sent me any, and I never expected him to, but I continued to recommend him. However, along came a point where I was leaving one particularily nasty racing barn, but was willing to stay in the horse business awhile longer. Guess who was looking for a barn manager at the time I was planning my exit strategy from the racing world? Yep, the guy I'd sent all those horses to. I was offered the job. I didn't take it as I had sustained a bad injury which would have prevented me from doing the job at least for a few weeks til I healed. But yes, it took some years for karmaic payback, but at least it finally took place.
...*sigh& as for you, dear Unca Raymee...no fear, I know you well enough to know you'd be painful to play cards or any kind of game with! Interesting too that you're the only one so far to bring up the sibling thing. As I think you know, I'm one of 5 children whose parents grew up in Britain in the 30s. That's a wildly different way of life and thought compared to Ryan who is only one of 2 kids born to Canadian baby boomers. We have entirely different views on many things as a result, which I won't go into here as not relevant.
Rambling now, so going for more coffee...
Message edited by author 2013-09-21 11:29:40. |
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09/21/2013 11:37:12 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
...*sigh& as for you, dear Unca Raymee...no fear, I know you well enough to know you'd be painful to play cards or any kind of game with! |
...curses, she knows me only to well :O)
Ray |
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09/21/2013 11:38:27 AM · #20 |
It's just not fair that the dog in the manager always gets the blame when it was really the cat. Cats are cuddly and cute so people don't see how devious they can be. You just can't trust a cat to play fair. Nope, not at all.
Mike |
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09/21/2013 11:42:25 AM · #21 |
Originally posted by snaffles:
Overall, I find that the whole concept of fair play, in all and any aspect of life, is definitely on the decline. Opportunism and looking out for only yourself is the theme of the 21st century. There is no such thing as a level playing field anymore.
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Every generation says this. |
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09/21/2013 11:51:06 AM · #22 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by snaffles:
...*sigh& as for you, dear Unca Raymee...no fear, I know you well enough to know you'd be painful to play cards or any kind of game with! |
...curses, she knows me only to well :O)
Ray |
Of course I do, how could I not? You're the one who brought me here!! ;-) |
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09/21/2013 12:16:20 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by snaffles:
Overall, I find that the whole concept of fair play, in all and any aspect of life, is definitely on the decline. Opportunism and looking out for only yourself is the theme of the 21st century. There is no such thing as a level playing field anymore.
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Every generation says this. |
And the kids today.... No respect for their elders, completely indolent, and without drive or serious merit of any kind whatsoever. |
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09/21/2013 12:22:01 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by snaffles:
Overall, I find that the whole concept of fair play, in all and any aspect of life, is definitely on the decline. Opportunism and looking out for only yourself is the theme of the 21st century. There is no such thing as a level playing field anymore.
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Every generation says this. |
And the kids today.... No respect for their elders, completely indolent, and without drive or serious merit of any kind whatsoever. |
Yeah I know, Pliny the Elder said exactly the same thing a million years ago. Some things never change. |
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09/21/2013 12:30:46 PM · #25 |
In any case, "fair play" is a concept given more lip-service than actual usage all through the annals of recorded history. If I recall correctly, the British marching to take Boston complained that the Americans weren't waging war fairly; they'd have preferred we stand in ranks and get mowed down like proper gentlemen. In sailboat racing and automobile racing, the Holy Grail is to discover a "legal" unfair advantage over your competition and run with it as long as you can before they re-write the rules.
I have played backgammon matches where my opponent had enough of an advantage on me that I resorted to trying to get him to hit large numbers of my checkers so I could stuff his some board and then stomp all over him when he tries to bear off. This is a legitimate tactic, indeed and "expert" one, but I've had opponents accuse me of "not playing fair" when I do that :-)
It's all in the eyes of the beholder.
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