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08/16/2013 08:43:39 PM · #26 |
My awards are given under anonymity. Even h2 got one.
By no means does a one mean the same thing to you and me. To be fair i rarely give ones out to ribbons. But threes? Often. And i don't begrudge other people their ones. |
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08/16/2013 09:42:03 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by emoons:
With all of that said, in the challenge that Denielle was speaking of (we have a story to tell), this 1 did adversely affect the difference between 2nd (did not receive any 1's) and 3rd (who received one 1) place was that vote of 1. The 2nd place image won by a margin of .0434. Had that one vote not been placed or had that vote been a 7 or had the 2nd place winner received a 1 as well, then they would have swapped places...so does the 1 make a difference...absolutely. |
Ok, I can't resist...
You are correct, the 3rd place image would have placed 2nd if a 1 vote had been a 7. However, do you realize that if one of it's 10 votes had been a 4 that the image would have fallen to 4th place?... so does the 10 make a difference...absolutely. The effect is equal but opposite.
Is that despicable 1 vote any less valid or correct than the inflated 10 vote? People complain all of the time about the effect of a 1 but they are more than happy to accept the effect of a 10
A low vote and it's effect |
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08/17/2013 01:08:08 AM · #28 |
I get the point of the opposite ends of the spectrum and they should in essence negate each other, but there is still a difference between the two. One means (to me)...wow that image was so bad that it should be last place due to whatever reason. The other means (to me)...wow that is a really nice photo I should give it a 10 based on this set of criteria. You are right, the effect is equal but opposite, but this goes beyond a simple negation of votes.
So you said that you have given ribbons a 3 before...that is perfectly fine...you found some things that brought down the quality of the image, but to justify a 1 for any of those images just seems out of reach. Maybe I am wrong.
To counter then...
In that same challenge, the 1st place ribbon received.
9 - 10's
9 - 9's
20 - 8's
1 - 1
1 - 2
1 - 3
By those ratings, can we say that the 9 votes for the 10 are unjustified. That's approx. 10% of the votes that received that rating. The vote of 1 is less than 1% of the votes. That is definitely an outlier in any statistical analysis...the 10% of 10's is not.
Now can someone feel really strong about an image one way or the other...yes. Are they free to vote anyway they want...yes. Can I have my opinion about this subject...yes. Can you have your opinion about it...yes.
So maybe I need some clarity here... (maybe everyone needs some clarity) (maybe we can get a rubric or guideline other than 1 bad 10 good for judging photos)
Do we judge photos on the elements of photography and artistic value, or do we judge them on our feelings towards the subject good or bad? Aren't images supposed to invoke some sort of feeling? If they do, then they have done their job and to give them the lowest possible score because of that negative feeling doesn't seem justified. If anything, it should raise the value of the photo. Do I want to see images of kids bloodied by war...no, but because I do not want to see it doesn't mean that the images depicted are of lesser photographic quality...it is quite the opposite. I find many of the photographs to be emotionally charged and it brings value to the image. So does a negative connotation towards a subject matter take precedence over the quality of the image? If so like I said, I would then vote every cat picture a 1 and every dog picture a 2. I hate looking at photos of those two animals. Would this be a fair rating on my part? That is truly my feeling about those types of images, but I look past that and look at the quality of the image. Some people look at their pets like a part of their family and they spent time setting up and processing those pictures, so for me to drop a 1 or 2 on them just doesn't seem right if the image is of good quality.
Should I make a bell curve based on the number of images and distribute votes along that curve? To me there is always a top and bottom image. I rarely give a 1 or a 10. Have I given them...yes, but in those instances when I gave the 1, I was not the single outlier...there were multiple voters who felt the image did not meet the standards. That is the difference. If I received 10 votes of a 1, I would be ok with that because I would realize...something didn't go right, but to have a single outlier like that on a blue ribbon...doesn't seem right...seems vindictive.
This will be something that I am sure every new contestant will complain about at some point. I have given my point of view in as many ways as I think I can...I probably will not sway anybody's POV on this, but I know I am not alone in thinking this. I have not entered many competitions, but I have been watching this site for years, and the one thing that I see every single challenge is a thread that talks about scores. If you read through them, look at the negative feelings that people have when the scores start rolling in. Why do people sit at their computers updating their scores every few minutes calculating what each new score that was given to them was? The reason...scores do mean something to these people so again...to throw a 1 on something that by normative standards (and no posthumous, people do not have to conform to norms) and give no regard to the photographic qualities is in the nicest possible way I can say it....weak.
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 01:09:14. |
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08/17/2013 02:18:18 AM · #29 |
emoons,
Here's the blue and the red from a challenge a little over a year ago. The challenge topic was "Autumn". Both images scored over 7.0 and both images had significant numbers of 1's, 2's, and 3's...
 
Do they "deserve" the low scores? According to the majority of voters, obviously not. But they DO have something in common; they are processed with a heavy "glow" style, a sort of misty/romantic look that some people absolutely can't stand, and I expect they took a few hits for that. Certainly, this is what I figured in my specific case (I was the red).
I have no problem at all with high-scoring images receiving very low outlier votes. In fact, I'd have a problem if they no longer DID.
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 02:19:13. |
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08/17/2013 02:44:23 AM · #30 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I have no problem at all with high-scoring images receiving very low outlier votes. In fact, I'd have a problem if they no longer DID. |
Well, it has happened.
And, as it turned out, his performance was so good that it did in fact cause quite a bit of kvetching and some uproar didn't it? ;) |
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08/17/2013 05:33:27 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
emoons,
Here's the blue and the red from a challenge a little over a year ago. The challenge topic was "Autumn". Both images scored over 7.0 and both images had significant numbers of 1's, 2's, and 3's...
Do they "deserve" the low scores? According to the majority of voters, obviously not. But they DO have something in common; they are processed with a heavy "glow" style, a sort of misty/romantic look that some people absolutely can't stand, and I expect they took a few hits for that. Certainly, this is what I figured in my specific case (I was the red).
I have no problem at all with high-scoring images receiving very low outlier votes. In fact, I'd have a problem if they no longer DID. |
Honestly, I would say they are both outstanding images and it is a shame that they received any 1's. I understand the 2's and 3's based on your reasoning of the "glow style", great give them a lower score for that reason, but to rate them a "1", the lowest possible score meaning everything else was equally bad or better than those two photos still does not cut it to me. Out of all of the different elements that you can rate a photo on, I do not see how anyone could rank it a one...lower than
which was the lowest ranking photo of that challenge. If you take each challenge and rank them greatest to least, do you see those photos falling at the absolute bottom of the pile in anyone's eyes...even with the despised glow? I hope me picking the last place photo does not bother anyone...it is just being used as a reference point in that challenge.
And Bear, I have admired your work for awhile and actually aspire to do work that well. Maybe you have been doing this long enough and have enough accolades to now be past the point of it bothering you. So please... honestly, when you first really started entering contests...did it bother you?
And one last set of questions regarding that challenge...what made you remember that set of photos? Was it the fact that you received a higher number of 1's than you usually do? If so, it is in line with what I was saying, the 1's do have a psychological impact on the photographer...albeit however small that may be to some. Do you feel your work on that image DESERVED any 1's in that challenge? If you were AVG voter on the street and were looking at composition, color scheme, challenge name, lighting, etc., would either of those photos fall into "bad" even with the glow?
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 05:35:21. |
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08/17/2013 08:35:17 AM · #32 |
 emoons, at the end of the day, nobody likes getting votes that diverge from what they prefer. But that's life, and if you don't accept that different people have wildly different criteria and scales in the first place, you'll not only never be content (as you'll be searching for unanimous voter agreement which frankly doesn't exist) with your own photos but you'll also be left woefully unappreciative of the arts in the greater scheme. Different strokes and all that eye of the beholder noise.
Your criteria are not universal. Your appreciation is not unanimous. Art is not composed purely of you, and really, that's the only way you could get what you describe. So you can either bury your head in the sand and deny the diversity of viewpoints and creations, curating an artistic exhibition of yourself, or you can embrace the fact that art is really far too colorful a world for any one individual to fully appreciate.
ETA: No vote is unjustified, owing to the fact that no perception can be invalidated.
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 08:36:30. |
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08/17/2013 09:10:55 AM · #33 |
I completely and totally agree that a vote of 1 on a good photograph seems completely and totally unfair. And it actually seems cowardly to say it's the worst that it could possibly be without bothering to comment and say why.
I think I've only seen a handful of photos in the last four years that would warrant a 1 on this site.
But that being said, it's just one, two or three votes, usually (if it's more than that, your photo probably really sucks). You post in the scores thread that you've been trolled, because it's kind of cathartic, and you notice that others have been trolled, as well, so you realize that it's not hurting you as much as you think, because usually everybody is getting hit with low votes (not all 1s, but usually low votes -- check it out -- there are a number of people with voting averages less than 5. Case in point, emoons, take a look at how you're scoring, as well. Site average is about 5.5. According to your voting average, more than half of everyone here are well below average. You may not be giving 1s, but you're certainly lowering everyone's score.)
I'm not saying this to pick on you -- I'm just pointing this out to back up what people are saying: People have their own criteria. I personally think that the photography on this site is pretty good (though I think it's gone down a bit recently.) My voting average is around 6.14.
You just have to brush it off. If you're letting yourself get upset over a couple of 1s, it takes all the fun out of it. I figure if people aren't going to justify it, I'll mark it up as someone being a jerk and let it go at that.
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 09:12:07.
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08/17/2013 11:44:51 AM · #34 |
Been lurking a while, enjoying the dialogue. My 2 cents.. FWIW:
The whole scoring system here was part of what attracted me to begin participating a few years ago. It's part what keeps bringing me back. No rubic... just an individual's (ideally) internally consistent vote on anonymous photos, presented in random order.
For me, there is no presumption that my ultimate scores are anything other than the aggregate wisdom of a self-selecting crowd of photographers and admirers who happen to be members and who happened to vote on a challenge I entered. The scores that result have meaning only insomuch as they represent a finite, although fluid, group of voters, each of whom is here for their own specific reason(s). Perhaps (just perhaps, mind you) there ARE voters whose prime purpose is to mess with scoring. If there ever is a challenge when the elusive trolls attempt a denial of ribbon attack on my score with superfluous 1's, so be it. I signed up to be part of the community - so did they.
This is what DPC is. The ribbons are virtual, our income, talent, stature in our RL communities are not affected by a DPC score. Our scores only make us feel however we allow ourselves to feel. The forums allow discussion, expression, and the very real opportunity to attempt change through influence and appeal. I suspect for those who are following this thread, there's real reflection of their own voting practice occurring.
Personally, the scoring system has been a motivation to do better; to attempt new approaches; to enter for crowd appeal OR to enter because I love a particular image I've made. I learn something about photography and something about the community with each challenge I enter. In the end, my opinions about which of my photos are the best are only marginally informed by the scores. Give me a few outlier 1's or boatloads of them. Same for 10's, but ultimately all they reflect is a snapshot of any challenge's voters. If you're here to feed a competitive spirit, learn what sells and how to produce it - make that the focus of what you do in challenges. If you're here to learn and interact with a fascinating community of interesting people, place the value of the score at a lower priority and keep the popcorn popper close at hand.
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08/17/2013 11:46:39 AM · #35 |
All points valid.
I do agree that there are different strokes for different folks.
My average votes are kind of low...so yes I do pull people down.
Maybe I need a little guidance in my voting. If the 1 - 10 had more of a value guide, maybe that would help.
This is how I vote:
Each image receives either a 4 or a 5. 5 for the images I think are the all around better photos, and 4's for the ones that are lower.
Most scores are a 5...the average photo...not good, but not bad. I then go back through the 5's and score my favorites with 8 - 10. Next tier gets a 6 or 7. Then most of the photos remain a 5.
I then go through the 4's and move the lowest ones down to a 2 or 3. I have put ones for images that in my opinion (and of course no one has to tell me that is my opinion and I am giving a 1), but that is generally when 2 conditions apply. Those conditions are 1. The image does not meet the challenge criteria (ie. "Create a photograph that is comprised of primarily warm colors." and it is primarily cool. 2. On top of not meeting criteria, the image would have received a 2 or 3 from me based on the other aspects of the image. If the image is well composed and all of that but doesn't meet criteria, I give it a 2 or 3. I only give a 1 out if the image meets both of my criteria for that rating.
Keep in mind that I am a high school math teacher. When I grade things, I look for qualities in the work that keep it from receiving the lowest score possible...I give partial credit for work that meets most of the criteria but has flaws in the algorithmic work. When I taught elementary school, I used rubrics to assign values to their work. The rubrics were designed by me to make sure the grading was consistent.
I am not afraid to divulge my voting for this challenge. It was already done...no changes have been made to make me seem whatever. I generally go back before voting ends and see if there is anything that grabs my attention that previously didn't and I move the scores up if necessary.
10 - 0
9 - 0
8 - 10
7 - 16
6 - 8
5 - 21
4 - 14
3 - 15
2 - 8
1 - 0
You have given an average score of 5.0217. That is higher than my avg of total votes. I have not voted in a large number of challenges, and my average was higher...I only gave out one 1 until Black on Black III. I gave out 1's to 7 images that did not seem to fit the challenge. Those 7 images received a total of 57 ones, so avg about 8 ones for each of the photos, so I don't feel that I was too off based in that. The unfortunate aspect of that is that it makes my average low. It should continue to creep back up the more challenges I vote in. Before that I believe my average voting was in the high 5's or low 6's.
Th
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08/17/2013 11:52:21 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by wbanning:
If you're here to feed a competitive spirit, learn what sells and how to produce it - make that the focus of what you do in challenges. If you're here to learn and interact with a fascinating community of interesting people, place the value of the score at a lower priority and keep the popcorn popper close at hand. |
Actually here for both. I am competitive in everything that I do. I also want to become better. That is why I am trying to comment on as many photos that I can...that helps me look for things that I want or don't want in my photos...someone mentioned that as a good way to get better...cant remember who. I also have someone who is trying to guide me and help me become better. I just wish the people who left the lowest scores would leave a reasoning behind it...I guess that is the most frustrating thing about the whole process.
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08/17/2013 12:01:04 PM · #37 |
I don't understand what's so complicated about the voting system.
It's simple, I vote '1' for the image I think should be '1st' work down to '10' for 10th and give the rest 1's because I can't decide. |
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08/17/2013 12:01:57 PM · #38 |
| I think that will by my new voting system too. Keeps things fair. :) |
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08/17/2013 12:24:56 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by emoons:
And Bear, I have admired your work for awhile and actually aspire to do work that well. Maybe you have been doing this long enough and have enough accolades to now be past the point of it bothering you. So please... honestly, when you first really started entering contests...did it bother you? |
In the beginning it bothered me a little, but not, as far as I remember, ever as much as it seems to bother some people. I got worked up into a bit of lather on this shot (read the photographer notes and the comments to follow the saga:
I've never been particularly offended, personally, from a SCORE point of view, by low votes I've received. It may be that this is because I received plenty of validation as a photographer long before finding DPC (I made a career as an architectural photographer, I've had shows and exhibits, etc etc), it may be a matter of personality, I don't know.
Originally posted by emoons:
And one last set of questions regarding that challenge...what made you remember that set of photos? Was it the fact that you received a higher number of 1's than you usually do? |
No, I was in challenge archives going back through challenges and looking for examples of winners that had a lot of low votes, and found that challenge. My image finishing with a ribbon also was just coincidental to the quest :-) I had forgotten the challenge, actually, it was like rediscovering Cibola or something. For ME, actually, the truly amusing thing is that neither image was actually shot in "autumn" :-) It's all about perception, not reality... |
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08/17/2013 12:54:54 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by emoons:
This is how I vote:
Each image receives either a 4 or a 5. 5 for the images I think are the all around better photos, and 4's for the ones that are lower.
Most scores are a 5...the average photo...not good, but not bad. |
Your math is off here ... on a 1-10 voting scale (no zero) the statistically-average score is 5.5, so you are actually giving every photo an initial score of "below-average". Your system will make more sense if you start with scores of 5 and 6 ...
ETA: and, in what I find pretty amazing, I believe the overall average score (every photo in every challenge) is almost exactly 5.5 ...
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 13:02:36. |
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08/17/2013 12:57:59 PM · #41 |
Alright...I have beaten the dead horse now. I think I am done on this topic...wasting too much of my time.
Thanks to all who have replied. This has gone way into more than I wanted to even talk about. I just left my opinion...and then felt attacked so to speak, so I guess I felt I had to defend my position. It actually doesn't even bother me as much as the posts may imply. I get charged up and must make comments sometimes...guess I should have been a lawyer instead of a teacher.
I read some of the comments and looked at the ratings. Fits the criteria, nice composition etc... 65 ones is unbelievable to me (plus all of the 2's and 3's). Seems like people took the challenge literally and any figurative approach was an automatic 1. That is quite a shame.
So final word for me.
Vote how you would like...just in the back of your mind...ask yourself...is this truly a fair representation of the quality of work and challenge requirements.
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08/17/2013 01:01:01 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by emoons:
This is how I vote:
Each image receives either a 4 or a 5. 5 for the images I think are the all around better photos, and 4's for the ones that are lower.
Most scores are a 5...the average photo...not good, but not bad. |
Your math is off here ... on a 1-10 voting scale (no zero) the statistically-average score is 5.5, so you are actually giving every photo an initial score of "below-average". Your system will make more sense if you start with scores of 5 and 6 ... |
I thought about that last night actually when I was lying (laying...I dunno, I am not a LA teacher) in bed. I had made the decision to start doing it that way and then when I got on here to respond, I forgot all about it. Thanks for bringing it back into my mind.
I think I will start with 5's and 6's and adjust from there. |
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08/17/2013 01:05:14 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by emoons:
I think I will start with 5's and 6's and adjust from there. |
That's what I do, now. Thanks for the discussion. It may be a dead horse for some, but not everyone was here in the Jurassic like me and the General (who's even more Jurassic than me). It's a topic that's worth rehashing frequently, IMO, because it gets people thinking of the meaning of voting, so to speak. That's a good thing. |
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08/17/2013 01:05:55 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by emoons:
... when I was lying (laying...I dunno, I am not a LA teacher) ... |
I remember it by "I lie down" but "I lay something else down" ...
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... not everyone was here in the Jurassic like me and the General (who's even more Jurassic than me). |
Hey, at least Triassic, or maybe even Pre-Cambrian ...
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 13:07:42. |
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08/17/2013 02:27:45 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by emoons:
... when I was lying (laying...I dunno, I am not a LA teacher) ... |
I remember it by "I lie down" but "I lay something else down" ... |
And the very poignant usage "now I lay me down to sleep..." |
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08/17/2013 03:31:56 PM · #46 |
| Yes, but in this case the person (I) is in a sense laying an object down (me), so it works. |
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08/17/2013 03:58:59 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by emoons:
Yes, but in this case the person (I) is in a sense laying an object down (me), so it works. |
Yes, of course, but it illustrates the distinction in usage very succinctly. And for me, there IS something poignant about that phrase, the sense of taking oneself up, of delivering oneself to unguarded oblivion...
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 17:13:10. |
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08/17/2013 03:59:00 PM · #48 |
Double post
Message edited by author 2013-08-17 15:59:51. |
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08/17/2013 04:53:49 PM · #49 |
| "unguarded oblivion:" is that a phrase to savour or a challenge? |
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08/17/2013 07:07:08 PM · #50 |
| that was my entry for the last 'where i live' challenge |
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