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08/11/2013 12:13:52 AM · #1 |
Video
Know your rights and don't be afraid to stand up for them!!
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08/11/2013 12:43:16 AM · #2 |
| I don't know, Eli. This guy really seems to have gone out of his way to look suspicious and provoke a confrontation. Architecture photography at 3 am...??? |
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08/11/2013 12:51:09 AM · #3 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
I don't know, Eli. This guy really seems to have gone out of his way to look suspicious and provoke a confrontation. Architecture photography at 3 am...??? |
Why not?
I do it all the time( well not all the time) in NYC. Less tourists and the city is always ''alive".
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08/11/2013 12:53:08 AM · #4 |
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08/11/2013 12:54:12 AM · #5 |
I also believe in open carry laws
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08/11/2013 05:33:48 AM · #6 |
Baiting the cops is like a new type of sport or something. There are loads of vids on liveleak like this and usually have lines like "am I being detained?", "am I free to go?", "what am I suspected of?" Or "which law am I breaking?"
Basically they try to provoke the police into trying to search them or 'overstep the mark' for the sake of an entertaining video. |
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08/11/2013 10:37:39 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by JH:
Baiting the cops is like a new type of sport or something. There are loads of vids on liveleak like this and usually have lines like "am I being detained?", "am I free to go?", "what am I suspected of?" Or "which law am I breaking?"
Basically they try to provoke the police into trying to search them or 'overstep the mark' for the sake of an entertaining video. |
If people knew their rights and police knew their rights this wouldn't be all the craze.
Authority is under pressure and scrutiny to protect and that means keeping an eye on suspicious behavior.
we want police to be proactive toward crime and reactive to us law abiding citizens, the problem is they cant tell us apart. |
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08/11/2013 12:28:18 PM · #8 |
John and Mike have expressed what I was trying to say, much more succinctly. Yes, we should know our rights, and yes, law enforcement should as well. But I've seen so many of these videos, it's become gratuitous. It's happened to me, it's annoying, but everything was resolved amicably. Tell me we wouldn't be up in arms if something DID happen, and people were hurt, or worse, killed. Then we'd be hollering about them not doing their job, and wondering why they didn't just ask questions. If someone was standing outside your house at 3 am, taking pictures, wouldn't you want to know why? Would you be satisfied with the answers this guy gave the police?
Before we all go on hollering about freedoms and rights, it is a very tough balance to strike, especially when we are behaving outside what is considered the "norm". Frankly, if I'm shooting just for myself, I'd rather they do their job and ask questions. It's up to us to decide if that picture is worth the hassle. If I've been hired to shoot, then I have the right to be there and I can prove it. Besides, these confrontations will not change anything, and are not the way to "educate" people. Instead, photography groups and organizations should create short presentations to give at police stations so that everyone is informed on what is and isn't "legal" when it comes to photography.
ETA - Legal Stuff (from attorney Bert P. Kragesâ website)
THE TEN LEGAL COMMANDMENTS OF PHOTOGRAPHY
I. Anyone in a public place can take pictures of anything they want. Public places include parks, sidewalks, malls, etc. Malls? Yeah. Even though itâs technically private property, being open to the public makes it public space.
II. If you are on public property, you can take pictures of private property. If a building, for example, is visible from the sidewalk, itâs fair game.
III. If you are on private property and are asked not to take pictures, you are obligated to honor that request. This includes posted signs.
IV. Sensitive government buildings (military bases, nuclear facilities) can prohibit photography if it is deemed a threat to national security.
V. People can be photographed if they are in public (without their consent) unless they have secluded themselves and can expect a reasonable degree of privacy. Kids swimming in a fountain? Okay. Somebody entering their PIN at the ATM? Not okay.
VI. The following can almost always be photographed from public places, despite popular opinion:
⢠accident & fire scenes, criminal activities
⢠bridges & other infrastructure, transportation facilities (i.e. airports)
⢠industrial facilities, Superfund sites
⢠public utilities, residential & commercial buildings
⢠children, celebrities, law enforcement officers
⢠UFOs, the Loch Ness Monster, Chuck Norris
VII. Although âsecurityâ is often given as the reason somebody doesnât want you to take photos, itâs rarely valid. Taking a photo of a publicly visible subject does not constitute terrorism, nor does it infringe on a companyâs trade secrets.
VIII. If you are challenged, you do not have to explain why you are taking pictures, nor to you have to disclose your identity (except in some cases when questioned by a law enforcement officer.)
IX. Private parties have very limited rights to detain you against your will, and can be subject to legal action if they harass you.
X. If someone tries to confiscate your camera and/or film, you donât have to give it to them. If they take it by force or threaten you, they can be liable for things like theft and coercion. Even law enforcement officers need a court order.
WHAT TO DO IF YOUâRE CONFRONTED
⢠Be respectful and polite. Use good judgement and donât escalate the situation.
⢠If the person becomes combative or difficult, think about calling the police.
⢠Threats, detention, and taking your camera are all grounds for legal or civil actions on your part. Be sure to get the personâs name, employer, and what legal grounds they claim for their actions.
⢠If you donât want to involve the authorities, go above the personâs head to their supervisor or their companyâs public relations department.
⢠Call your local TV and radio stations and see if they want to do a story about your civil liberties.
⢠Put the story on the web yourself if need be.
****Bold and italics my emphasis
Message edited by author 2013-08-11 14:19:48. |
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08/11/2013 02:47:05 PM · #9 |
Also keep in mind that the video and videos like it are not just about photographing a federal building at 3:00am. This guy was was also exercising the "open carry laws" in that state, carrying a firearm unconcealed.
Taking pictures 3:00am, so what. The firearm raises the stakes in this situation IMHO.
Someone calls police reporting someone is taking pictures and has a gun. Is this a normal everyday occurance in your community? Police come. What do you expect them to do?
The police are in a damned if they do, damned if they don't situation.
Message edited by author 2013-08-11 14:51:01. |
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08/11/2013 03:11:39 PM · #10 |
| Oh yeah, forgot the bit about the gun. |
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08/11/2013 03:52:53 PM · #11 |
I haven't watched the video - the guy's demeanor means EVERYTHING here though.
Was he polite, and cooperative? You don't have to answer certain questions, and you can stand up for your rights, but a very polite explanation of why you're refusing to answer, and your reasoning behind that decision will go a long ways towards alleviating the concerns of the officer, and avoiding trouble with him/her.
I've rarely had major problems with the police, and when I have, photography was usually more of a way out than it was a source of trouble. Police generally tend to be fairly good to us photographers, they're looking for trouble, not art.
Now, about that gun...
What's your gear cost? I figure that I'm ok without my weapon, because I have a tripod, and several heavy metal objects(cameras) that can easily be used to defend myself. Not everyone is capable of that though, and with $10,000 or more in gear you do make a really sweet target. I'd say that carrying a weapon, openly, is actually quite prudent if you're not trained in self defense and you're out at 3am with expensive gear. The odds of you being found by trouble in that situation is greatly increased, so an open carry could really help to discourage those who would otherwise attempt to liberate your gear.
..
Again though, demeanor is EVERYTHING. If you're a dick, you'll see that the police have been empowered and trained to be even bigger dicks, and trust me, even if you 'win' you'll still lose.
Message edited by author 2013-08-11 15:53:31. |
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08/11/2013 04:01:59 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Cory:
The odds of you being found by trouble in that situation is greatly increased, so an open carry could really help to discourage those who would otherwise attempt to liberate your gear.
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Perhaps a good insurance policy would help alleviate the pain of having your gear liberated, too.
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08/11/2013 05:50:00 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by JH:
Baiting the cops is like a new type of sport or something. There are loads of vids on liveleak like this and usually have lines like "am I being detained?", "am I free to go?", "what am I suspected of?" Or "which law am I breaking?"
Basically they try to provoke the police into trying to search them or 'overstep the mark' for the sake of an entertaining video. |
None of those questions are out of line. |
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08/11/2013 05:51:44 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
The odds of you being found by trouble in that situation is greatly increased, so an open carry could really help to discourage those who would otherwise attempt to liberate your gear.
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Perhaps a good insurance policy would help alleviate the pain of having your gear liberated, too. |
Unless the insurance payout is made to your estate instead. |
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08/11/2013 06:21:44 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by Cory:
The odds of you being found by trouble in that situation is greatly increased, so an open carry could really help to discourage those who would otherwise attempt to liberate your gear.
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Perhaps a good insurance policy would help alleviate the pain of having your gear liberated, too. |
Unless the insurance payout is made to your estate instead. |
I really do like you Alice, but statements like that both worry and mildly upset me.
It is your responsibility to protect your stuff. If you are so happy to take insurance payments, perhaps we can meet somewhere and I'll 'rob' you, I would appreciate it if you would also please bring lots of nice jewelry as well. If it's not too much trouble, stopping off at the ATM first would also be helpful, please withdraw at least $1,000.
Now of course, that's hyperbolic as all hell, but really, do you also leave the keys in your car with the doors unlocked? Making yourself an easy and welcoming target does to insurance rates what retail theft does to prices. We all pay more because of it, and that really sucks.
Not to mention the fact that it actually encourages criminals to rob people, hit a few easy targets and the whole world starts to look like a good mark.
Protecting yourself is a good thing, protecting your stuff is a good thing. For dozens of reasons. I know you're globally against anyone who doesn't work for the government as an enforcer having a gun for any reason, but at least get a taser and an airhorn or something.
Message edited by author 2013-08-11 18:23:30. |
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08/11/2013 07:21:16 PM · #16 |
i insure my gear. if someone wants it they can have it. there are things in this world I will physically fight to protect, my camera gear isn't one of them.
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08/11/2013 07:33:49 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by Mike:
i insure my gear. if someone wants it they can have it. there are things in this world I will physically fight to protect, my camera gear isn't one of them. |
Good to know. Can you just mail it to me or do we have to actually go through the drama of me pointing a gun at you? |
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08/11/2013 07:40:08 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by JH:
Baiting the cops is like a new type of sport or something. There are loads of vids on liveleak like this and usually have lines like "am I being detained?", "am I free to go?", "what am I suspected of?" Or "which law am I breaking?"
Basically they try to provoke the police into trying to search them or 'overstep the mark' for the sake of an entertaining video. |
None of those questions are out of line. |
Agreed. And Most of these groups/folks are not doing it for entertainment -they are doing it to ensure that cops know that at least some of us still know our rights. There are loads of videos on both YouTube and LiveLeaks that show that there is a serious problem with cops abusing their authority. Granted, there are a few who cross the line to provoke just for the drama, but the majority of them (and I've watched a LOT of them recently) are legitimately and sincerely just trying to reeducate police as to what their job is and what it is not. |
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08/11/2013 07:44:26 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by tanguera:
Oh yeah, forgot the bit about the gun. |
That was the main thing that I picked up on
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08/11/2013 08:09:07 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by Mike:
i insure my gear. if someone wants it they can have it. there are things in this world I will physically fight to protect, my camera gear isn't one of them. |
It's sooo not about the camera gear man. You've clearly missed the larger picture. Making yourself a willing victim does nothing to discourage further criminal activity. I personally would prefer to discourage the scumbags rather than encourage them. To each their own though - your obligation clearly doesn't extend beyond protecting yourself and your immediate interests, I feel that my obligation is to society at large, and that it's not ok to allow someone to rob you for reasons that go way beyond the loss of your gear.
Again though, you'll make a very good victim for someone someday, and I have little doubt that you'll walk away perfectly safe and not facing any civil or criminal action, plus you'll make some robber really happy, and likely upgrade to newer gear. So maybe you do have the right idea. It just doesn't function for me, it seems all wrong to allow someone to victimize you without resistance. |
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08/11/2013 08:13:59 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Spork99:
[quote=sfalice] [quote=Cory] |
I really do like you Alice, |
I like you too, Cory.
As an aside, when they were fashionable, I got a can of mace (and the police permit to go with it) and dragged it around with me for years. Then one day, I almost got on an airplane with the damn thing, and tossed it into the provided barrel just before it would have been trouble. Never did get another one. |
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08/11/2013 08:20:28 PM · #22 |
I have found a friendly and open demeanor to work wonders with authority figures.
There was a time when I met agressiveness with aggressiveness. Now, I much rather defuse the situation even if I don't "have to".
I was shooting in Joplin, Mo after the big tornado. The police rolled up, and asked what I was doing. I introduced myself, and told him that I wanted to show friends at home how much damage there was and how much help was needed. The office got out of his car, and spent the next fifteen minutes pointing out landmarks and telling the story of the storm. When he finished, there were tears in his eyes.
Strictly speaking, I did not stand up for my rights. But I would have missed something important if I had. |
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08/11/2013 08:40:11 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Mike:
i insure my gear. if someone wants it they can have it. there are things in this world I will physically fight to protect, my camera gear isn't one of them. |
It's sooo not about the camera gear man. You've clearly missed the larger picture. Making yourself a willing victim does nothing to discourage further criminal activity. I personally would prefer to discourage the scumbags rather than encourage them. To each their own though - your obligation clearly doesn't extend beyond protecting yourself and your immediate interests, I feel that my obligation is to society at large, and that it's not ok to allow someone to rob you for reasons that go way beyond the loss of your gear.
Again though, you'll make a very good victim for someone someday, and I have little doubt that you'll walk away perfectly safe and not facing any civil or criminal action, plus you'll make some robber really happy, and likely upgrade to newer gear. So maybe you do have the right idea. It just doesn't function for me, it seems all wrong to allow someone to victimize you without resistance. |
They can have my gear, not that I'll just hand it over, but, your assumption is that they'll simply take your stuff and go away, leaving you camera-less, but unharmed. That's possible, but what if it isn't what they do? What if they decide that beating you unconscious or killing you is a good idea? People seem to think that they will be able to talk, discuss what's happening and reason with criminals. They may not want to talk about it and just be in the mood to bash your head in. |
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08/11/2013 09:42:07 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by Mike:
i insure my gear. if someone wants it they can have it. there are things in this world I will physically fight to protect, my camera gear isn't one of them. |
It's sooo not about the camera gear man. You've clearly missed the larger picture. Making yourself a willing victim does nothing to discourage further criminal activity. I personally would prefer to discourage the scumbags rather than encourage them. To each their own though - your obligation clearly doesn't extend beyond protecting yourself and your immediate interests, I feel that my obligation is to society at large, and that it's not ok to allow someone to rob you for reasons that go way beyond the loss of your gear.
Again though, you'll make a very good victim for someone someday, and I have little doubt that you'll walk away perfectly safe and not facing any civil or criminal action, plus you'll make some robber really happy, and likely upgrade to newer gear. So maybe you do have the right idea. It just doesn't function for me, it seems all wrong to allow someone to victimize you without resistance. |
They can have my gear, not that I'll just hand it over, but, your assumption is that they'll simply take your stuff and go away, leaving you camera-less, but unharmed. That's possible, but what if it isn't what they do? What if they decide that beating you unconscious or killing you is a good idea? People seem to think that they will be able to talk, discuss what's happening and reason with criminals. They may not want to talk about it and just be in the mood to bash your head in. |
A valid, and very good point.. I avoided it because it muddies the water with what-ifs. Frankly, a criminal is likely to batter you, if for nothing more than the thrill of the power in doing so. Still, even if they don't intend on hurting you, I still object to them being able to easily purloin my gear.
In fact, the last time I lost a credit card, someone picked it up and used it, I helped the police track it down, literally going to get pre-approval for all the needed videos during transaction times (I couldn't get the videos, but I could verify that they existed, and that they would be copied and available for the detectives)...
I spent a day doing that, and thereby made sure the idiot who used my card paid a price for stealing from me, even though I was indeed fully reimbursed by my bank for the losses. In fact, he's been paying me victim restitution payments, another two or three and he's done. Quite profitable in fact, and satisfying too.
Message edited by author 2013-08-11 21:43:01. |
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08/11/2013 10:36:47 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I haven't watched the video - the guy's demeanor means EVERYTHING here though.
Was he polite, and cooperative? You don't have to answer certain questions, and you can stand up for your rights, but a very polite explanation of why you're refusing to answer, and your reasoning behind that decision will go a long ways towards alleviating the concerns of the officer, and avoiding trouble with him/her.
I've rarely had major problems with the police, and when I have, photography was usually more of a way out than it was a source of trouble. Police generally tend to be fairly good to us photographers, they're looking for trouble, not art.
Now, about that gun...
What's your gear cost? I figure that I'm ok without my weapon, because I have a tripod, and several heavy metal objects(cameras) that can easily be used to defend myself. Not everyone is capable of that though, and with $10,000 or more in gear you do make a really sweet target. I'd say that carrying a weapon, openly, is actually quite prudent if you're not trained in self defense and you're out at 3am with expensive gear. The odds of you being found by trouble in that situation is greatly increased, so an open carry could really help to discourage those who would otherwise attempt to liberate your gear.
..
Again though, demeanor is EVERYTHING. If you're a dick, you'll see that the police have been empowered and trained to be even bigger dicks, and trust me, even if you 'win' you'll still lose. |
I think you missed the point of the video. He was video taping (taking pictures? with his cell phone, no camera gear at all. Just his cellphone and open carry gun), and exercising his right to open carry. My opinion, he is video taping his contact with police to test their reaction to open carry.
The video taping/photography is an aside.
Being near/at the Federal building is an aside.
The "confrontation" with the Phoenix police got sidetracked to the "photography" issue because the police realized/acknowledged he was within his rights to open carry. The gist of the "photographer/open carry guy" was to test the cops on his detainment, his right not to be searched, his right not to surrender his gun, his right not to volunteer his name/info (resulting from him carrying his gun openly).
- Photographer/gun guy ultimately walked away without given up anything.
- Were the police over reacting?
- The police in the end realized they didn't have anything. However, in this day and age was it unreasonable for police to question a guy with a gun videotaping a federal building (I think they mentioned a police facility also)?
Not living in Phoenix, I don't know what the community standards are and the priorities of local police are down there.
If the gun guy was trying to advance open carry and educate people or police, is this helping him?
Just my take on the whole thing.
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