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07/09/2013 04:04:48 PM · #26 |
Another piece on this topic I think is worth a read:
Where the Hell is the Outrage? |
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07/09/2013 04:27:59 PM · #27 |
I suppose the most interesting thing to watch has been the subtle shift in the media.
It would seem to me that they have more power than anyone, and I think the government has finally really pissed them off. |
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07/09/2013 04:39:19 PM · #28 |
The concentration of wealth among the few and the erosion of citizens' rights is like boiling a frog. If you throw a frog into hot water, he'll jump out. If you raise the temperature slowly over time, by the time he realizes he's in hot water, he's already cooked.
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07/09/2013 06:22:13 PM · #29 |
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07/09/2013 07:59:53 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
The concentration of wealth among the few and the erosion of citizens' rights is like boiling a frog. If you throw a frog into hot water, he'll jump out. If you raise the temperature slowly over time, by the time he realizes he's in hot water, he's already cooked. |
The frog fable is false: //www.snopes.com/critters/wild/frogboil.asp
Now back to your regularly scheduled rant. |
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07/09/2013 08:30:56 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
The concentration of wealth among the few and the erosion of citizens' rights is like boiling a frog. If you throw a frog into hot water, he'll jump out. If you raise the temperature slowly over time, by the time he realizes he's in hot water, he's already cooked. |
Here's the real deal... this is a war against the middle class. The middle class consists of both conservatives and liberals. I happen to be a middle class conservative who understands that both the GOP and the Democrat party have sold out to the global corporate raiders. I understand that both parties are using extreme social issues as a smoke screen to divide and conquer so they can ram through policy that continues to make them more elite and more powerful. The real question is how do you congeal a movement of a class of people who are opposed to each other on so many issues? How is the middle class consisting of people from both the left and the right going to coalesce around this one important economic issue when there is no agreement on so many other issues?
I hear the progressives out there and what they are saying about the loss of good paying middle class jobs, the movement of factories out of the country, the destruction of sensible government policy meant to stabilize the economic system and keep corporations and banks in check, and I realize I am talking about these very same issues with my conservative friends. We see it too! And when I read the story like the one linked above and I see it is on a progressive website and I am in agreement with the article, I tend to feel I have to hold my nose when I read the comments of the people posting under the article talking of reigniting the anti-war era protest style. (I am just being honest here.) I just can't believe that after all these years of divided, polarized politics between left and right, here right before us is an issue which we can all stand together on. And we don't know how. |
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07/09/2013 10:40:36 PM · #32 |
Maybe you can start by pointing out to your socially conservative friends the degree to which unfettered corporate capitalism is incompatible with Christian values. If we can only agree to disagree about abortion and (public) school prayer there is, as you point out, near-complete agreement on most other major points of interest to ordinary folk.
Not only that, I think it's what most "ordinary folk" in France, China, India, Iran, and almost everyplace else agree on as well ... |
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07/10/2013 04:38:08 AM · #33 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
Here\'s the real deal... this is a war against the middle class. The middle class consists of both conservatives and liberals. I happen to be a middle class conservative who understands that both the GOP and the Democrat party have sold out to the global corporate raiders. I understand that both parties are using extreme social issues as a smoke screen to divide and conquer so they can ram through policy that continues to make them more elite and more powerful. The real question is how do you congeal a movement of a class of people who are opposed to each other on so many issues? How is the middle class consisting of people from both the left and the right going to coalesce around this one important economic issue when there is no agreement on so many other issues?
I hear the progressives out there and what they are saying about the loss of good paying middle class jobs, the movement of factories out of the country, the destruction of sensible government policy meant to stabilize the economic system and keep corporations and banks in check, and I realize I am talking about these very same issues with my conservative friends. We see it too! And when I read the story like the one linked above and I see it is on a progressive website and I am in agreement with the article, I tend to feel I have to hold my nose when I read the comments of the people posting under the article talking of reigniting the anti-war era protest style. (I am just being honest here.) I just can\'t believe that after all these years of divided, polarized politics between left and right, here right before us is an issue which we can all stand together on. And we don\'t know how. |
Is \"unions\" a dirty word for a conservative? People of various persuasions stand together under the umbrella representation and protection of a union. They fight for the middle class. A major reason for the state we now face is the much weaker position of unions. The checks and balances provided by unions against big business has largely been negated from the forces of globalization, automation, and union busting campaigns. Unions will allow the middle class to coalesce their voices and powers to stand up to big business and big govt but don\'t count on it being polite conversation. It\'s going to be a loud and ugly fight, it always has been. |
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07/10/2013 08:14:57 AM · #34 |
Originally posted by Olyuzi:
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
Here\'s the real deal... this is a war against the middle class. The middle class consists of both conservatives and liberals. I happen to be a middle class conservative who understands that both the GOP and the Democrat party have sold out to the global corporate raiders. I understand that both parties are using extreme social issues as a smoke screen to divide and conquer so they can ram through policy that continues to make them more elite and more powerful. The real question is how do you congeal a movement of a class of people who are opposed to each other on so many issues? How is the middle class consisting of people from both the left and the right going to coalesce around this one important economic issue when there is no agreement on so many other issues?
I hear the progressives out there and what they are saying about the loss of good paying middle class jobs, the movement of factories out of the country, the destruction of sensible government policy meant to stabilize the economic system and keep corporations and banks in check, and I realize I am talking about these very same issues with my conservative friends. We see it too! And when I read the story like the one linked above and I see it is on a progressive website and I am in agreement with the article, I tend to feel I have to hold my nose when I read the comments of the people posting under the article talking of reigniting the anti-war era protest style. (I am just being honest here.) I just can\'t believe that after all these years of divided, polarized politics between left and right, here right before us is an issue which we can all stand together on. And we don\'t know how. |
Is \"unions\" a dirty word for a conservative? People of various persuasions stand together under the umbrella representation and protection of a union. They fight for the middle class. A major reason for the state we now face is the much weaker position of unions. The checks and balances provided by unions against big business has largely been negated from the forces of globalization, automation, and union busting campaigns. Unions will allow the middle class to coalesce their voices and powers to stand up to big business and big govt but don\'t count on it being polite conversation. It\'s going to be a loud and ugly fight, it always has been. |
To be fair, the unions have been responsible for their share of crooked deals too.
I could relate countless stories about dealing with unions and their workers.
Message edited by author 2013-07-10 08:22:34. |
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07/10/2013 08:56:08 AM · #35 |
Originally posted by tnun:
thank you, Judith. |
You're welcome. :-) |
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07/10/2013 09:10:13 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by EL-ROI:
I just can't believe that after all these years of divided, polarized politics between left and right, here right before us is an issue which we can all stand together on. And we don't know how. |
Well, I'm doing it now (and have done it before), working with people with whom I have nothing in common and who I would otherwise want to strangle. lol! Here in upstate New York, the oil and gas companies have leased over half the land in the county where I reside for natural gas fracking, and Governor Cuomo is hell bent on allowing it to go forward. This is Republican Country. I can't talk to these folks about abortion or just about any other "social" issue, but the majority of them don't want fracking (even though they were duped into signing leases), and I don't want fracking either, so I put on the blinders and focus on just the fracking issue when I'm engaged in organized activity with these folks. I don't know any other way to do it. |
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07/10/2013 11:43:26 AM · #37 |
The Corruption Perception Index was just in the news this week and by that measure at least we are seemingly doing pretty well. Not perfect, but not bad at all compared to the majority of the world's population.
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07/10/2013 12:13:35 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The Corruption Perception Index was just in the news this week and by that measure at least we are seemingly doing pretty well. Not perfect, but not bad at all compared to the majority of the world's population. |
Are we doing that well?
Or are we just too stupid to know otherwise? Remember - that is a map showing perception.
Message edited by author 2013-07-10 12:40:48. |
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07/10/2013 12:31:46 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The Corruption Perception Index was just in the news this week and by that measure at least we are seemingly doing pretty well. Not perfect, but not bad at all compared to the majority of the world's population.
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I think that's more a measure of how effectively the government deceives us... They're very good at getting people to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain"... |
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07/10/2013 12:33:54 PM · #40 |
which is why I said, "by that measure at least".
If we are "too stupid to know otherwise" we'd have an equally hard time declaring that we are highly corrupt (due to our ignorance). IIRC the survey asks people if they have paid a bribe for any of twelve basic services in the last year. There's another map for that. 7% of US residents responded in the affirmative. The worst countries were, I believe, 77% and 84%. |
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07/10/2013 12:37:34 PM · #41 |
Actually, I apologize. The map above does not correlate with the survey that was just in the news. The overlay is similar, but it's a different poll. Here's the link the Transparency.org's Global Corruption Barometer.
Global Corruption Barometer
Here's the map I was thinking of:
Message edited by author 2013-07-10 12:42:33. |
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07/10/2013 12:42:47 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
which is why I said, "by that measure at least".
If we are "too stupid to know otherwise" we'd have an equally hard time declaring that we are highly corrupt (due to our ignorance). IIRC the survey asks people if they have paid a bribe for any of twelve basic services in the last year. There's another map for that. 7% of US residents responded in the affirmative. The worst countries were, I believe, 77% and 84%. |
But to measure corruption like this?
It's the equivalent of saying my town doesn't have crime because there weren't any murders.
Bribery is a blue-collar corruption, that frankly is unconcerning. The real corruption is that which costs millions, not hundreds, and this survey did nothing to account for that. |
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07/10/2013 12:57:01 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
which is why I said, "by that measure at least".
If we are "too stupid to know otherwise" we'd have an equally hard time declaring that we are highly corrupt (due to our ignorance). IIRC the survey asks people if they have paid a bribe for any of twelve basic services in the last year. There's another map for that. 7% of US residents responded in the affirmative. The worst countries were, I believe, 77% and 84%. |
Yes, but bribery is sort of ham-handed, isn't it? The real pros are far more subtle in their quest to concentrate wealth and power among the few.
Message edited by author 2013-07-10 12:59:12. |
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07/10/2013 01:01:25 PM · #44 |
Well, sez us. Because we don't deal with it that much. In other countries if you have to pay a bribe every time you want something done, it's a big deal.
To go along with the feelings of this thread, the US did feel that "political parties" were the most corrupt institution where many other countries pointed to other institutions (like the police).
Listen, I don't disagree we have problems and I think are political parties are, to some extent, corrupted by the process. I'm just trying to provide some counterbalance to say we have it good in some other ways. We don't have to pay a bribe to make sure our kids are enrolled in school or when we interact with the police or to keep our water running. |
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07/10/2013 01:10:06 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, sez us. Because we don't deal with it that much. In other countries if you have to pay a bribe every time you want something done, it's a big deal.
To go along with the feelings of this thread, the US did feel that "political parties" were the most corrupt institution where many other countries pointed to other institutions (like the police).
Listen, I don't disagree we have problems and I think are political parties are, to some extent, corrupted by the process. I'm just trying to provide some counterbalance to say we have it good in some other ways. We don't have to pay a bribe to make sure our kids are enrolled in school or when we interact with the police or to keep our water running. |
You mean to say, "We only have to pay a bribe 7% of the time to make sure our kids are enrolled in school or when we interact with the police or to keep our water running"...
In truth though - we're extorted every day, it's just normal to us, fees, expected gifts, special interest bond issues, etc.
And by the way, extortion/bribery is really a huge problem in Miami Beach, there have been a few high profile busts, but it really is pretty wide spread there.
Again, no offense intended, but suburban Americans tend to think all of America is like their picket fenced neighborhoods - and it's simply not. I'm betting the people most commonly subject to extortion weren't even part of that poll, since I suspect it was English only.
Message edited by author 2013-07-10 13:11:10. |
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07/10/2013 01:16:43 PM · #46 |
Right, English only. Because when you survey 107 countries it's all gonna be in English... ;)
Page 27 covers methodology in case you are interested.
Message edited by author 2013-07-10 13:17:52. |
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07/10/2013 01:41:07 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We don't have to pay a bribe to make sure our kids are enrolled in school or when we interact with the police or to keep our water running. |
No, we have taxes. Or, if you want your kids to get a step up, tuition (while still paying the tax). |
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07/10/2013 01:50:37 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
To be fair, the unions have been responsible for their share of crooked deals too.
I could relate countless stories about dealing with unions and their workers. |
I don't think union corruption comes anywhere near, in scope or scale, to what the corporations and governments are perpetrating. Far from it. But they are still the best organizing force for the middle class. |
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07/10/2013 01:56:13 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
We don't have to pay a bribe to make sure our kids are enrolled in school or when we interact with the police or to keep our water running. |
No, we have taxes. Or, if you want your kids to get a step up, tuition (while still paying the tax). |
You don't think "they" have taxes, too?
Look, bribery is a very real thing in third-world countries, it's the ultimate corruption as felt by the average citizen. It's the corruption that doesn't allow anything to happen until you grease somebody's palm. I'm very familiar with it from all my years in Baja California before it became a tourist hot spot.
Anyway none of this is relevant to the overriding thrust of the discussion in this post, which is that The corporations OWN us, not the other way around. Way way too much power has been delivered into the hands of corporate interests that, by definition, exist for no other purpose than to maximize profit, regardless of the collateral damage to society at large. |
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07/10/2013 02:00:10 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Right, English only. Because when you survey 107 countries it's all gonna be in English... ;)
Page 27 covers methodology in case you are interested. |
I did of course mean here in the US. |
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