On land, these scores are black and white

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/23/2013 10:38:08 PM · #26

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:

Pish posh I used to be in that camp until I realized the votes are pretty average for DPC when the dust settles. Look at the scores in outdoor macro and refraction. Some of the highest in a while.

Maybe...but I am sure there would be some individuals voting patterns that are quite different during the league compared to non-league voting!!

pamb

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

04/23/2013 10:45:23 PM · #27

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:

snip
Look at the scores in outdoor macro and refraction. Some of the highest in a while.

:)

couldn't resist

:D

Judi

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

04/23/2013 10:53:13 PM · #28

I would be interested to know how many league people finished higher than they usually do...and how many finished lower than they usually do.

I think what I am saying is can we keep this fair peoples...keep it across the board. There are people who aren't in the league getting hammered due to the swaying of the votes.

And before anyone jumps down my neck, I am not saying that ALL league players are biased in their voting during these leagues...but I am sure there are some.

hahn23

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS II USM Lens

04/24/2013 01:00:57 AM · #29

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:

Pish posh I used to be in that camp until I realized the votes are pretty average for DPC when the dust settles. Look at the scores in outdoor macro and refraction. Some of the highest in a while.

For those who don't participate in TPL and submit a good challenge entry, the score gets hammered. When you've participated in enough challenges here, you can tell that something is rotten in Denmark. While most, but not all, TPL participants do not vote on teammates' images, most do vote on competitors' images. It's team voting, nonetheless. This hurts DPC overall.

Message edited by author 2013-04-24 01:22:32.

Yandrosxx

Apple iPhone 5

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/24/2013 07:12:04 AM · #30

And yet, that feeling isn't substantiated by actually voting trends when DPL or TPL are going on. The last four challenges clearly show that. The results are markedly higher than the challenge results immediately before TPL began. Just isn't true.

bohemka

Nikon D700

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

04/24/2013 07:16:48 AM · #31

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:

I have to agree with Michael here. A quick comparison of the recent challenges' average scores vs. those of challenges in February, for example, shows no difference.

hahn23

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS II USM Lens

04/24/2013 07:31:38 AM · #32

Originally posted by bohemka:

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:
And yet, that feeling isn't substantiated by actually voting trends when DPL or TPL are going on. The last four challenges clearly show that. The results are markedly higher than the challenge results immediately before TPL began. Just isn't true.

I have to agree with Michael here. A quick comparison of the recent challenges' average scores vs. those of challenges in February, for example, shows no difference.

Broad averages possibly conceal some segmented group shifts. Simply, it would be interesting to know if TPL participants scores have generally been bumped up and non-TPL members have taken a hit. It really doesn't matter to me. I don't care. There does seem to be some very hateful voting going on, at times. That is what hurts DPC's future, as frustration and discouragement builds amongst newer members. I do blame TPL for some of the malaise.

04/24/2013 07:53:49 AM · #33

Interesting, although how would we know who's a TPL participant and who's not?

Message edited by author 2013-04-24 08:54:57.

MarkB

Canon EOS-60D

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

04/24/2013 08:23:32 AM · #34

Originally posted by hahn23:

Simply, it would be interesting to know if TPL participants scores have generally been bumped up and non-TPL members have taken a hit.

My TPL average is 5.28 and my historical average is 5.66. I doesn't look like I am getting a big boost in scoring from my team mates and I know they are not getting a boost (or any votes) from me.

It wouldn't surprise me if some TPL members were experiencing higher averages as they are getting input on image faults that they may have not noticed and they have a chance to correct them before submitting.

RyanW

Nikon D7000

04/24/2013 08:28:29 AM · #35

Originally posted by hahn23:

Originally posted by bohemka:

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:
And yet, that feeling isn't substantiated by actually voting trends when DPL or TPL are going on. The last four challenges clearly show that. The results are markedly higher than the challenge results immediately before TPL began. Just isn't true.

I have to agree with Michael here. A quick comparison of the recent challenges' average scores vs. those of challenges in February, for example, shows no difference.

Broad averages possibly conceal some segmented group shifts. Simply, it would be interesting to know if TPL participants scores have generally been bumped up and non-TPL members have taken a hit. It really doesn't matter to me. I don't care. There does seem to be some very hateful voting going on, at times. That is what hurts DPC's future, as frustration and discouragement builds amongst newer members. I do blame TPL for some of the malaise.

My scores on images that i put thought and effort into are slammed because they're not the studio-setup, razzle-dazzle, high-gloss professional product that some here are capable of delivering. In the onset of TPL there was a bigger curve (i found) as people were trying to figure out voting in team to be as fair as possible without ensuring that your team loses. it's human nature to want your team to win, you have to know (not expect, not figure, but KNOW) that inevitably there will be skewed voting.

It's hard to say my scores have gone down since tpl because it's not true in the images leading up to TPL - i really didn't give a damn and was submitting crap images. before that when i put the same level into shots that i'm doing for tpl i was scoring .75 to 1 point higher. so please, don't tell me there's been no change to voting trends because it's an absolute fallacy.

pamb

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

04/24/2013 08:48:56 AM · #36

OK, so I have done some absolute crap images during TPL, and also some darn good ones. I have to say that I'm insulted by the insinuation that my scores are being artificially inflated due to TPL strategic voting. I have received more scores lower than my average than higher than my average with the number of challenges I have entered in the last several weeks. I would like to think that it took me a while to get into the swing of things and entering reasonable images for any given challenge. For people to suggest that the ribbons I have won during TPL are in any way due to false voting simply upsets me. Those images that are getting better, are doing so because I am spending way more time with my camera than I have for months and months previously. I am paying attention to things I would not have noticed before and really thinking about the challenge reference and attempting to shoot with that specifically in mind. That may be why there are some new names showing up in the winner's table lately. Maybe there are a lot of people who are doing what I'm doing - trying.

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

04/24/2013 08:56:41 AM · #37

I've seen no difference in scores prior to TPL compared to during TPL.

RyanW

Nikon D7000

04/24/2013 08:56:58 AM · #38

i'm trying harder than i have since probably september of last year, maybe october, so don't get me wrong in thinking i'm saying teammates are upvoting to win, or that everybody involved in TPL is downvoting non-team-photos; i can honestly say i did not vote out of any usual pattern when i've voted in TPL challenges, and i went through all images before i started voting, if i felt i wouldn't be able to vote comfortably i abstained from voting at all. but human nature being human nature, my comment is most definitely true for some members.
I wish I could say the same as you, that I got a ribbon during TPL because i was working harder, but even my putting more time or effort into things hasn't panned out and they've been getting the same scores as images that i put No time or effort into; Gyaban i am not, and i know that my hours spent learning and practicing techniques in PSP will not translate to a higher score; but they have translated to comfort in the program and speed, which in turn means i'm improving again, which is what this site is for as long as you don't let the voters dissuade you from doing what you like.

04/24/2013 09:03:45 AM · #39

If scores are higher (which I do not believe) it may be due to people putting more work and effort into their shots since their is some measure of accountability to your TPL teammates and fear of letting them down.

pamb

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

04/24/2013 09:14:52 AM · #40

Originally posted by Garry:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly.

As I said previously, the majority of the shots I have entered for challenges have been lower than my average, but that's because when I look at them objectively, they're not up to par. I have gone out of my way to improve over the course of this league. I was really annoyed at the scores I was getting, so I consciously decided to up my game. I've gone to events I wouldn't have otherwise attended, I've stopped for shots I wouldn't otherwise have bothered with, I've gotten up early and stayed up late trying to do the right thing by my teammates.

For anyone to suggest or insinuate or wonder if I truly deserve my placings, because, heaven forbid, it's better than I *normally* do, is pure insult. Some of my images are better because I went out of my frickin way to make them better. I am offended. If you think my images, or anyone else's, truly don't deserve the score/placing they've received, then you need to be more objective.

I'm shocked at how much the stupid paranoia of a few people has really pissed me off.

Message edited by author 2013-04-24 09:16:05.

CNovack

Canon EOS-600D/T3i Rebel

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS

04/24/2013 09:18:51 AM · #41

Originally posted by Garry:

Bingo - I think that capitalizes what is occurring more during DPL/TPL more than the possible handful of trollers/extreme critics (which I think remain steady and tossing the low ball votes throughout the year). One has the drive to really do well to polish the shots for now one carries the weight of not just themselves but their team. Right off the bat of the TPL people REALLY brought their A-game and it showed in the quality that was submitted. Voters are also, I think, comparing the submitted shots with what they believe is high ranking - i.e. Is it as good as the shot I gave a 10 or 8 to?

Not in this challenge but getting good, dynamic B&W tones and a good composition is not as easy as one might think. Kuddos to those who went out and got something.

Stats: You have rated 120 of 126 images (95%) in this challenge.
You have given an average score of 5.8167.

Message edited by author 2013-04-24 09:23:04.

Yandrosxx

Apple iPhone 5

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/24/2013 09:40:11 AM · #42

Feelings are so great because you just know they are right.

All you have to do is go the Challenge History tabs and look at the raw data, highest score and average scores before and after TPL and there's no difference. If anything the average score trend for the several challenges immediately proceeding TPL are lower than the TPL average.

I've been coming around for several years. Over that timeframe I had one HM. Since I came back around this past December, I have received two ribbons and 3 HMs.

Here's the kicker, I received both ribbons and 2 HMs before TPL started.

I've received one HM since TPL started.

I think its fair to conclude my relatively recent improvement doesn't objectively have squat to do with TPL.

It's easy to ascribe ulterior motives at times like these because we can all imagine the prejudices and temptations we feel at times existing in others.

Fair enough, but you are underestimating their self control.

I've actually been bumping my votes up when I came back around this time because I became self conscious about how low my voting average was. Thought I was being too harsh and critical. So I know my average voting is skewed upward across the board because I'm trying to avoid snap judgments.

nam

Sony DSLR-A580

Sony DT 18-70mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical ED Zoom Lens for Sony Alpha

04/24/2013 09:50:33 AM · #43

Originally posted by Garry:

Agree. I have worked very hard these past seven weeks. I have entered all but four of the challenges which is way more than I would normally do. Like Pam and others I have done much more shooting than I would have normally - especially considering the miserable spring weather we have had LOL I have gone back for shots that weren't quite right the first time. I have processed and reprocessed and processed again - and my team has been one which weighed in more with preferences than suggestions (though there have been those, of course) so most of the time the re-shoots and reprocessing were self-driven.

Relative to my own skill and talent level, I have had successful, disappointing, and "no surprise here" entries. I don't know whether my own average has gone up or down - I don't watch it that closely.

I have not voted for my teammates' entries. I'm not good enough to figure out which entry is whose if I don't know in advance, so I can honestly say I have voted as fairly as possible on all other entries without a thought as to whether they belonged to one of that week's opponents.

Most of all, I have enjoyed the team experience and will participate again.

Message edited by author 2013-04-24 11:48:03.

Tiberius

Samsung Galaxy S22, S22+, S22 Ultra

Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH

04/24/2013 10:25:54 AM · #44

Votes: 57
Views: 114
Avg Vote: 6.4035
Comments: 1

bohemka

Nikon D700

Sigma 12-24mm f/4.5-5.6 EX Aspherical DG HSM for Nikon

04/24/2013 11:11:33 AM · #45

We should talk about this in the TPL thread and not derail this scores thread with this discussion, but I wanted to adresss this:

Originally posted by pamb:

Originally posted by Garry:
If scores are higher (which I do not believe) it may be due to people putting more work and effort into their shots since their is some measure of accountability to your TPL teammates and fear of letting them down.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Exactly.

As I said previously, the majority of the shots I have entered for challenges have been lower than my average, but that's because when I look at them objectively, they're not up to par. I have gone out of my way to improve over the course of this league. I was really annoyed at the scores I was getting, so I consciously decided to up my game. I've gone to events I wouldn't have otherwise attended, I've stopped for shots I wouldn't otherwise have bothered with, I've gotten up early and stayed up late trying to do the right thing by my teammates.

For anyone to suggest or insinuate or wonder if I truly deserve my placings, because, heaven forbid, it's better than I *normally* do, is pure insult. Some of my images are better because I went out of my frickin way to make them better. I am offended. If you think my images, or anyone else's, truly don't deserve the score/placing they've received, then you need to be more objective.

I'm shocked at how much the stupid paranoia of a few people has really pissed me off.

We understand your frustration and disappointment with some of the baseless speculation going on here, and as you withdraw from TPL competition we stand by your side in unwavering support.

Sincerely,

Dodge & The Burnouts

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

04/24/2013 02:47:13 PM · #46

I hate Colorado mountain scenes, and will be voting 1's on them.

chazoe

Nikon Z7 FX

Nikon MF Micro-Nikkor 85mm f/2.8D PC

04/24/2013 02:59:45 PM · #47

Originally posted by Strikeslip:

I hate Colorado mountain scenes, and will be voting 1's on them.

You're dead to me.

ShaneBlake

Nikon D7100

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Nikon

04/24/2013 03:26:13 PM · #48

Back to the topic at hand, who do I have to bribe to get a 6?

Votes: 56
Views: 113
Avg Vote: 5.7143
Comments: 1

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

04/24/2013 03:30:39 PM · #49

Originally posted by kudzu:

Back to the topic at hand, who do I have to bribe to get a 6?

Votes: 56
Views: 113
Avg Vote: 5.7143
Comments: 1

For TPL? Epsi. :D

Although, you should know that he said he'll only take the shrunken heads of leprechauns as currency from now on, so good luck paying that debt.

;)

Message edited by author 2013-04-24 15:32:14.