TPL:THE RESULTS - DPChallenge Forums

Asahi 55mm f/1.8 Super-Multi-Coated Takumar, M42 Mount

04/10/2013 11:20:23 PM · #226

or here is a better approach that a little bird just dropped into my lap:

find out the difference 1 percentage point makes in one challenge and compare that to the other:

n1 = number of entries in challenge 1
n2 = number of entries in challenge 2

abs(1/n1 - 1/n2) = percent variance.

this shows that 5% is way too high unless there is a massive disparity. in most cases the wide disparities that challenges would provide realistically the variance should be 2-3% max. for the same challenge it will work it out to be zero or you can just take the do nothing approach.

ETA: my previous approach was an attempt to fit a curve to values i deemed to be fair and i fell into the hole the brains behind TPL did. we need to use a method as above that uses a purely statistical approach to account for difference in participation.

Message edited by author 2013-04-10 23:28:58.

Epsi

Canon EOS-450D Rebel XSi

04/10/2013 11:52:12 PM · #227

I will be busy the rest of the week with work. Keep the ideas coming and I will catch up on the weekend.

bhuge

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

04/10/2013 11:56:21 PM · #228

How about just dropping the 5% all together? It's very objective to determine what the "correct" variance should be between challenges.

If the goal is to make it 100% fair, then doesn't make a lot of sense. Take for example week 2 between the Naked Pedestrians and Hocus Focus. Hocus Focus scored higher on three of the four matchups, but lost because all three wins were within 5%. Why not just get rid of the 5% rule.

I think having ties pulls some of the fun out of it. Balls to the walls, every 0.0001% counts, two people enter, one person leaves, winner takes all!

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

04/11/2013 12:31:43 AM · #229

Originally posted by bhuge:

Not fair between challenges with significant differences.

We WILL have a modifier - the nature of that modifier is, however, up for discussion at this time. :)

bhuge

Canon EOS-550D Rebel T2i

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM

04/11/2013 01:14:24 AM · #230

Originally posted by Cory:

Not fair between challenges with significant differences.

The 5% may help out someone that enters a much harder challenge, but it is also just as likely to help out the person that entered the easier challenge. It adds indecision to the results, but doesn't really address fairness.

I don't really care either way, but I do like playing devils advocate :)

Cory

Canon EOS-1D Mark IV

04/11/2013 02:06:33 AM · #231

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by Cory:

Now - here's a question to everyone - we need your input about the transition phase. How would you like to see us transition?

All teams go free-agent and can trade as they see fit?
All teams drop half the team into the pool, from which they are reassigned?
All teams drop everyone into the pool, captains remain captains?
All teams dissolve, new teams?

I'm a bit hesitant for straight free agent because then we enter into Ribbon Hogs territory, and while I don't think we need to completely flatten the field, per se, I think some constraints for weighting are good and necessary to keep the league worthwhile for the average user.
I'm also a bit against dropping half the team because that will seem a bit crappy for whoever gets dropped and also likely relate to the first issue I noted. I think an all or nothing for team retention is best so far as that is concerned.

As a captain, I'm indifferent to the retention of captains and a selection from there. It did seem to work alright with the DPL, but again, we'd need a weighting system and I've no clue how that all worked.

Just food for thought - we could easily choose which three to drop.. It wouldn't be the team's responsibility.. :)

Stagolee

Kodak Easyshare C180

Canon EF 50mm f1.2L

04/11/2013 02:08:02 AM · #232

Originally posted by Cory:

Originally posted by mike_311:
referring to Lydia's post, she took 4th and Jagar took 8th IN THE SAME CHALLENGE yet they tied in TPL scoring. In the other, Chrystyne took 19 and Colorcarnival took 21st IN THE SAME CHALLENGE, close, but still she place higher... if these were different challenge you can argue the 5% rule, but in the same challenge?

just pointing out an obvious flaw there...

Originally posted by Epsi:

I ask again, try to think on the scoring system before it is proposed. Make logical arguments with actual examples (data of the weeks 1 - 2 and 3 is publicly available for you to use). If what you want is to vent don't expect a reply.

no one is venting, just pointing out that he scoring system probably could use a tweak. i accept is is what it is. i haven't posted a concrete solution because i don't have one and I'm hoping by discussing it out loud we can help to find one and if i can come up with a workable method i pull put number is to it.

no one is criticizing your method, it was a very good system but you couldn't possibly have foreseen every possible circumstance where it needs improvement.

No, you've nailed what was missing from her post - a concrete example, and proof that it is really a possible issue. (besides, all dictators have cranky moments, last week was mine. ;) )...

We'll definitely add this to the list, we've got a lot to hash out still on this. If you see problems, don't hesitate to mention them, just make sure that you can show concrete proof of the issue.

Now - here's a question to everyone - we need your input about the transition phase. How would you like to see us transition?

All teams go free-agent and can trade as they see fit?
All teams drop half the team into the pool, from which they are reassigned?
All teams drop everyone into the pool, captains remain captains?
All teams dissolve, new teams?

What if the three lowest scoring members of a team move to the next team under them in the standings at the end! or this does not matter it could be highest scoring members. That way we all mix up the teams and it still remains a non-selective team. Also this would ensure that the teams that finish on top get new blood and will possibly not stay at the top.

Anyone who doesn't want to continue could be replaced by a reserve list that selects the next in order to replace a non-returning member.

Just a thought :0

SaraR

Sony Alpha a7R III

Sony FE 24-70mm f/2.8 GM

04/11/2013 04:39:38 AM · #233

Originally posted by pamb:

I have really enjoyed getting to know new DPCers, so my vote would be for a complete dissolution and another random selection process.

I'm with Pam - I'm having a blast playing the TPL, and have got to know some great people. I will, I am sure, stay in contact with them, but it would be great to get to meet new people each time. I think one of the real success stories of the way the current TPL is run has been the breaking down of 'cliques' - perceived or real.

MAK

Leica M Monochrom

Leica 18-56mm f/3.5-5.6 Vario Elmar-T ASPH

04/11/2013 08:07:01 AM · #234

I personally WANT the teams to be random and built the same way we did in the first place, the whole idea is to build the community and make it tighter..

THe backroom crew are in discussions and we are taking all of your suggestions onboard.

04/11/2013 08:17:55 AM · #235

another vote for dissolving all teams, the best aspect of TPL is the interaction with people you normally would not have.

Message edited by author 2013-04-11 08:18:04.

MarkB

Canon EOS-60D

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Nikon

04/11/2013 09:33:08 AM · #236

First of all, awesome job by everyone who is helping make sure this runs.

Another vote for fully dissolving the teams at the conclusion of the TPL. That process introduced me to five people here that I likely wouldn't have had the privilege of working with, getting help from, and supporting.

I also support keeping some sort of modifier to balance different challenges but agree that it probably isn't necessary when comparing shots in the same challenge. I think

mike_311 is on the right track with his latest couple of ideas regarding this.

ShaneBlake

Nikon D7100

04/11/2013 09:52:11 AM · #237

Originally posted by mike_311:

another vote for dissolving all teams, the best aspect of TPL is the interaction with people you normally would not have.

Ditto

Silent-Shooter

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

04/11/2013 10:19:16 AM · #238

Originally posted by kudzu:

Originally posted by mike_311:
another vote for dissolving all teams, the best aspect of TPL is the interaction with people you normally would not have.

Ditto

Thanks Shane. Not sure what I have done to you to make you want to leave our Team. I'm sorry for whatever it was that I may have said to you
:-)

Sigma 30mm f/1.4 EX DC HSM for Nikon

04/11/2013 10:41:51 AM · #239

Originally posted by Silent-Shooter:

Originally posted by kudzu:

Originally posted by mike_311:
another vote for dissolving all teams, the best aspect of TPL is the interaction with people you normally would not have.

Ditto

Thanks Shane. Not sure what I have done to you to make you want to leave our Team. I'm sorry for whatever it was that I may have said to you
:-)

don't take it personal, the dominance that Hocus Focus is putting out, its no wonder all these teams want to break it all up in order to compete next time hoping to get one of us on their team.

let's face it, even the rule makers knew how tough it would be and put a handicap in place to level the field.

:-P

Message edited by author 2013-04-11 10:43:11.

ShaneBlake

Nikon D7100

04/11/2013 10:57:41 AM · #240

Originally posted by Silent-Shooter:

You know what you did and why I'll never forgive you for it...

*sob*

;)

MAK

Leica M Monochrom

Leica 18-56mm f/3.5-5.6 Vario Elmar-T ASPH

04/11/2013 11:18:32 AM · #241

Originally posted by kudzu:

Can you guys get a room already?...

Yandrosxx

Apple iPhone 5

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/11/2013 11:23:38 AM · #242

x

Message edited by author 2013-04-11 11:24:16.

MarkB

Canon EOS-60D

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/11/2013 11:23:57 AM · #243

Any chance we can add a week 8 to the TPL? You compete against the team in the other division that is ranked the same as you.

That way at least one of the mighty teams from the Eastern League will have an opportunity to beat up on Team Hocus-Focus. :-)

Yandrosxx

Apple iPhone 5

04/11/2013 11:24:38 AM · #244

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Silent-Shooter:

Originally posted by kudzu:

Originally posted by mike_311:
another vote for dissolving all teams, the best aspect of TPL is the interaction with people you normally would not have.

Ditto

Thanks Shane. Not sure what I have done to you to make you want to leave our Team. I'm sorry for whatever it was that I may have said to you
:-)

don't take it personal, the dominance that Hocus Focus is putting out, its no wonder all these teams want to break it all up in order to compete next time hoping to get one of us on their team.

let's face it, even the rule makers knew how tough it would be and put a handicap in place to level the field.

:-P

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha, Oh if the ref hadn't made that call!

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

04/11/2013 11:31:31 AM · #245

Originally posted by Yandrosxx:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by Silent-Shooter:

Originally posted by kudzu:

Originally posted by mike_311:
another vote for dissolving all teams, the best aspect of TPL is the interaction with people you normally would not have.

Ditto

Thanks Shane. Not sure what I have done to you to make you want to leave our Team. I'm sorry for whatever it was that I may have said to you
:-)

don't take it personal, the dominance that Hocus Focus is putting out, its no wonder all these teams want to break it all up in order to compete next time hoping to get one of us on their team.

let's face it, even the rule makers knew how tough it would be and put a handicap in place to level the field.

:-P

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha, Oh if the ref hadn't made that call!

TPL has it's sown tuck rule!

Yandrosxx

Apple iPhone 5

04/11/2013 11:37:19 AM · #246

Hey, the tuck rule was good enough for 14 years in the NFL.