| Author | Thread |
|
|
10/29/2012 05:27:44 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Ann:
Originally posted by mike_311:
so the question begs, is one BORN homosexual?
lots of folks think its a choice. In the end it only matters where the courts rule, and the position of many is to make sure judges who get to rule are of a certain mindset. |
It doesn't matter what "lots of folks" think. Science isn't based on popular opinion. The idea that "it's a choice" is pretty silly, since if it really were a choice, how many people do you think would choose to face overt discrimination on a regular basis? |
oh but it does matter, greatly. if you don't think so, just take a look at the political races going on and the lobby groups pouring money behind their candidates.
what actually is true is irrelevant until its proven or even better accepted. |
I would argue the opposite when it comes to discrimination. What "lots of folks think" is irrelevant when it comes to discrimination. Lots of folks think lots of crazy things. Lots of folks thought that "separate but equal" was perfectly acceptable. Some still do. Lots of folks still think that gay people can't serve in the military without undermining readiness. Lots of folks thought the same thing about black people when the military was desegregated.
The whole point of most of our anti-discrimination laws is to protect the minority from what "lots of folks" think. And yes, you're correct. That's what the judicial branch of government is about. "Activist judges" protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 05:28:06 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
1. ok, for one Blacks have been extremely persecuted throughout history and sorry but i'd be a bit skeptical too.
2. as a former practicing Christian i'm pretty confidant what the Cross stands for. Its a symbol Cory. it represents that Christ, god's own son, died and the suffering that he willingly endured to cleanse man from his sins.
3. anything in the bible can be taken literally, the church tends to pick and choose what is acceptable at any time, and right now spreading the word is still acceptable, killing is not.
4. like i said, you are doing a very good job at pointing out the fallacy of Christianity, however you despise the subject and its coming across in your choice of words. |
..
1. Totally an extreme example - very good answer. :)
2. I wonder if you read the Wikipedia article and noticed that the first line said exactly what I was saying. It is a representation of a horrible torture and execution device, that is fact. I know you read much more into it, and that it means much more than that to a Christian, but that doesn't change the fact that your icon is a torture device. The star of David seems so much nicer and kinder... Despite the whole history there. o_O . *shrug* I just really find the whole thing a bit .. honestly? ... the word is disturbing. It's certainly your right, and I also support the rights of the practitioners of Santeria, despite the fact that I find some of their practices much more disturbing.
3. I don't know that I think just taking what's in vogue and consuming it as your all encompassing belief system is such a great idea. Frankly it seems to be rife with problems from my view-point.
4. You are very correct in that my strong distaste does come across. Perhaps I do myself a disservice, but I feel the anger is valid, and as Martin Luther King said "The supreme task is to organize and unite people so that their anger becomes a transforming force." |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 05:29:09 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by rooum:
I'm with Mike on the symbolism of the Cross thing. It's an old symbol, just like the Christ archetype is an old one and has lots of elements that predate Christianity by many many years. The Jesus Christ story/myth is one of the parts of Christianity i like a lot really. He comes across as one of the good guys and his teachings seem sound. |
What does that old symbol represent? ;)
Come on you two, I mean, really, it's in the first line of the definition. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 05:42:24 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:
OK...here's my butt in...
If you associate with a group, you represent the group. |
My problem with that is that there are huge differences and branches within the major religions. There is a huge difference between Westbro and a Anglican vicar in a small village in Kent say. And there is a huge difference between the Taliban or Al Quada and my Muslim friends i used to live with when i lived in Egypt for a while. These major religions are so huge and old that it is fully possible to cherry pick what you want/need out of them. The horrible idiots and bigots might cherry pick the stuff that back up their prejudices. The few Christian friends i have are fascinating in their approach to their religion and are not homophobic or racist or sexist in any way. They've chosen the bits that work for them and do not identify at all with the likes of the burn in hell for your sins brigade. |
What you speak is truth. There are many more good and wonderful people who belong to a religion than there are bad folks. That is absolute pure demonstrable truth.
Now, the problem is that the bad guys are using the cover of the good guys to pull off the shit they pull off. And unfortunately there are a good number of bad guys who use the easily led to do their evil bidding, and again, they rely upon religion to do that.
I can't see anything that is good which is impossible in a world without religion, perhaps it would look a little different, but the goodness is a part of our nature that we will always embrace.
I can, however, see a few things that would be impossible if the world abandoned religion entirely. Unfortunately we as a species are probably not ready for that yet, as religion seems to really serve a function in our world that isn't easily replaced. Frankly that's the thing I fear most about religion, it's the most powerful and dangerous weapon on the planet, and also the most powerful thing to cause good as well - essentially it is the very essence of control, for better or for worse. My concern is that we never, as a global society, seem to be able to address this subject in a sane and rational way that addresses the concerns that religion raises, and works to make certain that religions are actually acting for the good of the people, as a species.
I know, that's some scary shit even to say, mandated controls on religion? Sounds like England during a rather dark phase of it's history, but still, I don't know that complete anarchy amongst the religious is a good thing either - seems it's been abused far too many times and in far too many ways by my measure.
So heck, perhaps I just have changed my entire outlook on this subject, maybe I shouldn't argue against religion, since that's clearly just being silly and it will never happen. Perhaps the real argument should be for regulation and control of such a powerful and potentially dangerous system of control.
Frankly, it seems to make good sense to me, I think I'll have to mill this idea over for a while. I suspect it might be a very productive shift in my views on this subject. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 05:44:00 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by Cory:
4. You are very correct in that my strong distaste does come across. Perhaps I do myself a disservice, but I feel the anger is valid, and as Martin Luther King said "The supreme task is to organize and unite people so that their anger becomes a transforming force." |
Your anger may be just, but the manner in which you dole it out to any and all of the faithful is anything but. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 05:44:25 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Cory:
What does that old symbol represent? ;)
Come on you two, I mean, really, it's in the first line of the definition. |
Death/Rebirth. It's a symbol of liminality in a way. The point of crossover and the point of return. It's tied to the Sun God mythology, of the sun dying each night and being resurrected in the morning. The sun crossing the equinoxes. In the Osiris myth he is ripped to pieces by his brother Set and scattered in the Nile. Osiris is finally reassembled and placed in a cross shaped box (or a box with a cross on it or assembled on a cross shaped tree depending on different versions.). The Crossroads as a place of crossover and return pops up a lot. You mentioned Santeria for one. On a more practical note the cross is used as a method of destruction as in the cruxifiction of Christianity which i guess you are alluding to but i'm not sure i get your point. You don't like it because it's a bit grisly? |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 05:53:14 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:
OK...here's my butt in...
If you associate with a group, you represent the group. |
My problem with that is that there are huge differences and branches within the major religions. There is a huge difference between Westbro and a Anglican vicar in a small village in Kent say. And there is a huge difference between the Taliban or Al Quada and my Muslim friends i used to live with when i lived in Egypt for a while. These major religions are so huge and old that it is fully possible to cherry pick what you want/need out of them. The horrible idiots and bigots might cherry pick the stuff that back up their prejudices. The few Christian friends i have are fascinating in their approach to their religion and are not homophobic or racist or sexist in any way. They've chosen the bits that work for them and do not identify at all with the likes of the burn in hell for your sins brigade. |
What you speak is truth. There are many more good and wonderful people who belong to a religion than there are bad folks. That is absolute pure demonstrable truth.
Now, the problem is that the bad guys are using the cover of the good guys to pull off the shit they pull off. And unfortunately there are a good number of bad guys who use the easily led to do their evil bidding, and again, they rely upon religion to do that.
I can't see anything that is good which is impossible in a world without religion, perhaps it would look a little different, but the goodness is a part of our nature that we will always embrace.
I can, however, see a few things that would be impossible if the world abandoned religion entirely. Unfortunately we as a species are probably not ready for that yet, as religion seems to really serve a function in our world that isn't easily replaced. Frankly that's the thing I fear most about religion, it's the most powerful and dangerous weapon on the planet, and also the most powerful thing to cause good as well - essentially it is the very essence of control, for better or for worse. My concern is that we never, as a global society, seem to be able to address this subject in a sane and rational way that addresses the concerns that religion raises, and works to make certain that religions are actually acting for the good of the people, as a species.
I know, that's some scary shit even to say, mandated controls on religion? Sounds like England during a rather dark phase of it's history, but still, I don't know that complete anarchy amongst the religious is a good thing either - seems it's been abused far too many times and in far too many ways by my measure.
So heck, perhaps I just have changed my entire outlook on this subject, maybe I shouldn't argue against religion, since that's clearly just being silly and it will never happen. Perhaps the real argument should be for regulation and control of such a powerful and potentially dangerous system of control.
Frankly, it seems to make good sense to me, I think I'll have to mill this idea over for a while. I suspect it might be a very productive shift in my views on this subject. |
I can't totally disagree with you really. Like i said earlier, i tend to disassociate peoples actions from their religions. You act like a dick you act like a dick. I'm not bothered that much why you act like a dick; if some book or group of other dicks told you to is kind of irrelevant for me on a personal level. I do, though, tend to share your distrust and dislike of major religions as systems of control. They are one of many of course. I'd say capitalism is another system that has influenced many people to act like total dicks and mess the world up. I tend towards William Blake with his idea that you should create your own religion instead of embracing anothers. I'm more about a more personal approach which is probably more akin to art and fiction and play and nature than it is with traditional religion. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:01:07 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
3. anything in the bible can be taken literally, the church tends to pick and choose what is acceptable at any time, and right now spreading the word is still acceptable, killing is not. |
Anything? Even Sodoma and Gomorrah massacre?
One of my teachers at high school used to say that Bible was the best fantasy book ever written.
|
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:05:01 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by Cory:
What does that old symbol represent? ;)
Come on you two, I mean, really, it's in the first line of the definition. |
Death/Rebirth. It's a symbol of liminality in a way. The point of crossover and the point of return. It's tied to the Sun God mythology, of the sun dying each night and being resurrected in the morning. The sun crossing the equinoxes. In the Osiris myth he is ripped to pieces by his brother Set and scattered in the Nile. Osiris is finally reassembled and placed in a cross shaped box (or a box with a cross on it or assembled on a cross shaped tree depending on different versions.). The Crossroads as a place of crossover and return pops up a lot. You mentioned Santeria for one. On a more practical note the cross is used as a method of destruction as in the cruxifiction of Christianity which i guess you are alluding to but i'm not sure i get your point. You don't like it because it's a bit grisly? |
Nah, it's not that I don't like it because it's grisly. I just find the whole use of it as the symbol as a bit disturbing in the Christian context. It's a bit like carrying the sidearm your father was killed with. The fact that is a symbol that is THE symbol for Christianity everywhere, and the fact that in the Christian context it's equivalent to a guillotine or the gallows. Seems a strange thing to bow down before.. I get it that they aren't worshiping the execution and torture device aspect of the thing, but it's still a bit of a disturbing idea to me.
We love boundary conditions as a species, that's true, we're attracted to them, it's our "thing". This is just a poor representation of that boundary IMO, wouldn't the cave be a better symbol? And why does it sometimes seem like all the stories of religion are about one person betraying another, then ripping someone apart and scattering them about, etc... It seems those type of stories outnumber the non-violent in the scriptures, or at least, it seems there's almost always some element of violence in the bible.
I suppose this Wikipedia article covers it pretty well. Of course the argument around this meanders about - but my thought is that effectively this is the centuries old equivalent of "violence ratings"... Basically sweet and heartwarming stories will fail to keep people's attention if there isn't some good violence sprinkled in.
The problem, and this is why I find it disturbing, is that in some people's minds these are much more than stories, and there is a real danger of people acting on this, much more so in fact than the danger of kids killing people because of violent video games or violent TV. So, while you may argue that the bible isn't really advocating killing people who work on Sunday (extreme example), you can bet there's some genius out there who's enough of a dimwit to really believe he's being commanded to do so. Of course, like I said, the fact that the primary symbol is a torture device is a telling fact, and one that really does disturb me just a bit. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:06:34 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by Alexkc:
Originally posted by mike_311:
3. anything in the bible can be taken literally, the church tends to pick and choose what is acceptable at any time, and right now spreading the word is still acceptable, killing is not. |
Anything? Even Sodoma and Gomorrah massacre?
One of my teachers at high school used to say that Bible was the best fantasy book ever written.
|
...Not even close. The best fantasy book ever is that promulgated by politicians at regular intervals and which starts with..."If you elect me I will"
Ray |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:09:24 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Alexkc:
Originally posted by mike_311:
3. anything in the bible can be taken literally, the church tends to pick and choose what is acceptable at any time, and right now spreading the word is still acceptable, killing is not. |
Anything? Even Sodoma and Gomorrah massacre?
One of my teachers at high school used to say that Bible was the best fantasy book ever written.
|
...Not even close. The best fantasy book ever is that promulgated by politicians at regular intervals and which starts with..."If you elect me I will"
Ray |
Meh, not even close to the same level of talent in the writing. The politicians are as clear as glass, no one actually believes a damned thing they say. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:11:39 PM · #112 |
Let me drop this little bomb; i think it is a good idea to stop teaching religion at schools, you ought to do that at home if you must, now its pure indoctrination. Teaching an idea/believe as truth is dangerous.
Of course i'm from Holland where we have [semi] legal soft drugs, prostitution, euthanasia, abortion... I reckon we are on the same level of evil bastards as Iran and Korea ;p
Message edited by author 2012-10-29 18:23:40. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:13:12 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Alexkc:
Originally posted by mike_311:
3. anything in the bible can be taken literally, the church tends to pick and choose what is acceptable at any time, and right now spreading the word is still acceptable, killing is not. |
Anything? Even Sodoma and Gomorrah massacre?
One of my teachers at high school used to say that Bible was the best fantasy book ever written.
|
...Not even close. The best fantasy book ever is that promulgated by politicians at regular intervals and which starts with..."If you elect me I will" |
I know what you mean. After all we have Berlusconi, the greatest example ever! |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:14:33 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by HCvE:
Let me drop this little bomb; i think it is a good idea to stop teaching religion at schools, you ought to do that at home if you must, now its pure indoctrination. Teaching an idea/believe as truth is dangerous. |
Well, supposedly, by law we're forbidden to do so... Yet, they forced me to swear allegiance to god every morning in school, despite my disbelief, and I was punished several times before I just decided that it was easier to just do it and silently resent the teachers. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:15:52 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by Cory:
This is just a poor representation of that boundary IMO, wouldn't the cave be a better symbol? |
NO WAY MAN! That'd be far too feminine and empowering for the womenfolk! We need some sort of erect penis in our symbolism or the ladies will take over. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:23:20 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by HCvE:
Let me drop this little bomb; i think it is a good idea to stop teaching religion at schools, you ought to do that at home if you must, now its pure indoctrination. Teaching an idea/believe as truth is dangerous. |
+1 Absolutely agree. Dawkins summed it up when he said that teaching religion to children is a 'form of child abuse' |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:23:49 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by rooum:
Originally posted by Cory:
This is just a poor representation of that boundary IMO, wouldn't the cave be a better symbol? |
NO WAY MAN! That'd be far too feminine and empowering for the womenfolk! We need some sort of erect penis in our symbolism or the ladies will take over. |
ROFL... And that probably really was how the darn conversation went. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:24:26 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
From a legal perspective, the savvy racist or bigot usually finds some other reason to fire, not hire, or disassociate with "undesirable(in their eyes)" groups. These people made the mistake of putting their cards on the table.
Probably should have just said, "sorry-we are booked, here are three other names."(but kept their mouths shut as to motive) |
Yep, consider this proof that honesty doesn't pay. The world rewards deceit and deception. |
The photographer did say that he was booked on their day. Then they had a friend call about the same day, and he was available.
|
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:33:55 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by alohadave:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
From a legal perspective, the savvy racist or bigot usually finds some other reason to fire, not hire, or disassociate with "undesirable(in their eyes)" groups. These people made the mistake of putting their cards on the table.
Probably should have just said, "sorry-we are booked, here are three other names."(but kept their mouths shut as to motive) |
Yep, consider this proof that honesty doesn't pay. The world rewards deceit and deception. |
The photographer did say that he was booked on their day. Then they had a friend call about the same day, and he was available. |
You know, I had forgotten that bit. But you're absolutely right.
Well then, ... I guess the real lesson is: take the damned money and stop hating, gay money spends just like straight money, and you can bet I wouldn't ever turn down a Christian wedding. Hell, I'd be glad to shoot the guy and horse wedding mentioned earlier (although I'm concerned that this particular one might be wrong, as the horse didn't choose). ;) |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:37:30 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:
OK...here's my butt in...
If you associate with a group, you represent the group. Period. Cory gave an excellent example of that.
|
So by that line of thinking I should assume by your chosen username that you and Michael Vick have a great deal in common both representing dog owners? Period?
|
|
|
|
10/29/2012 06:52:29 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So by that line of thinking I should assume by your chosen username that you and Michael Vick have a great deal in common both representing dog owners? Period? |
I would like to think I represent all form of smart-assery |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 07:07:04 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:
OK...here's my butt in...
If you associate with a group, you represent the group. Period. Cory gave an excellent example of that.
|
So by that line of thinking I should assume by your chosen username that you and Michael Vick have a great deal in common both representing dog owners? Period? |
That would be if she joined a dog fighting group..
Jeeze guys, the rhetoric is particularly weak tonight. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 07:11:56 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by PuppyDogMom:
OK...here's my butt in...
If you associate with a group, you represent the group. Period. Cory gave an excellent example of that.
|
So by that line of thinking I should assume by your chosen username that you and Michael Vick have a great deal in common both representing dog owners? Period? |
That would be if she joined a dog fighting group..
Jeeze guys, the rhetoric is particularly weak tonight. |
The problem is the term Christian is very loosely applied to a huge group and there are sects in that group that are at odds with one another. Get a Catholic, Protestant, Southern Baptist, Greek Orthodox, Westboro Baptist and Pentecostal together and see the fights and arguments ensue. Not to mention the young earth creationist, creationist with help of evolution and strictly evolution. Some believe in a literal Adam and Eve some look at Genesis as an allegory. Lumping all who use the term christian together just doesn't work. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 07:20:40 PM · #124 |
Originally posted by MinsoPhoto:
The problem is the term Christian is very loosely applied to a huge group and there are sects in that group that are at odds with one another. Get a Catholic, Protestant, Southern Baptist, Greek Orthodox, Westboro Baptist and Pentecostal together and see the fights and arguments ensue. Not to mention the young earth creationist, creationist with help of evolution and strictly evolution. Some believe in a literal Adam and Eve some look at Genesis as an allegory. Lumping all who use the term christian together just doesn't work. |
They are all from the same cloth. Disagree as they might, that doesn't free them from their association to one another. I cannot make my mother not my mother, it is part and parcel of who I am, the same as they cannot remove themselves from all that has preceded them.
Besides, like I said earlier, I'm actually lumping all religious folks that follow an organized church together here. They are dangerous if the wrong person is at the helm. |
|
|
|
10/29/2012 07:22:03 PM · #125 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by mike_311:
1. ok, for one Blacks have been extremely persecuted throughout history and sorry but i'd be a bit skeptical too.
2. as a former practicing Christian i'm pretty confidant what the Cross stands for. Its a symbol Cory. it represents that Christ, god's own son, died and the suffering that he willingly endured to cleanse man from his sins.
3. anything in the bible can be taken literally, the church tends to pick and choose what is acceptable at any time, and right now spreading the word is still acceptable, killing is not.
4. like i said, you are doing a very good job at pointing out the fallacy of Christianity, however you despise the subject and its coming across in your choice of words. |
..
1. Totally an extreme example - very good answer. :)
2. I wonder if you read the Wikipedia article and noticed that the first line said exactly what I was saying. It is a representation of a horrible torture and execution device, that is fact. I know you read much more into it, and that it means much more than that to a Christian, but that doesn't change the fact that your icon is a torture device. The star of David seems so much nicer and kinder... Despite the whole history there. o_O . *shrug* I just really find the whole thing a bit .. honestly? ... the word is disturbing. It's certainly your right, and I also support the rights of the practitioners of Santeria, despite the fact that I find some of their practices much more disturbing.
3. I don't know that I think just taking what's in vogue and consuming it as your all encompassing belief system is such a great idea. Frankly it seems to be rife with problems from my view-point.
4. You are very correct in that my strong distaste does come across. Perhaps I do myself a disservice, but I feel the anger is valid, and as Martin Luther King said "The supreme task is to organize and unite people so that their anger becomes a transforming force." |
Whoa whoa, I'm not a practicing Christian, I grew up in the faith, in church, youth group, but have moved onto different level of thinking. anyone can beleive whatever they want. I don't teach my kids there isn't a god. I teach them to evaluate the information and decide for themselves.
That said I feel I understand the religion inside and out an can comment on the intricacies of it. For the better part of my life I bought into it, I no longer do. I will however never tell anyone its silly, or wrong, or whatever. Its not my postion to decide whatever someone wants to believe. I would be more than willing to discus how I came to the conclusion I did, but I would never tell anyone I'm right and they aren't.
On the topic of equalities, thank god we have activist judges who transcend what popular opinion is and are willing to take a stand on issues of importance.
|
|
