Chances are, you suck - DPChallenge Forums

08/30/2012 01:39:09 PM · #26

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Still don't buy it that everyone deserves respect. It simply isn't something that should be accorded someone just for existence. Why you would say regard or consideration is the bare minimum pretty much smacks of an entitlement attitude. Nobody's entitled to anything in this world.

It doesn't come from a viewpoint of entitlement. For me personally, it comes from a viewpoint derived from Buddhism. Compassion for all. Not for those who "prove" themselves. For all. To me that also translates into respect from the start. Granted if someone goes to a point to lose respect, one can still maintain compassion for them so the two aren't completely linked, but I believe it's important to start off on the right foot with people. And that right foot is respect. It seems to me if you don't respect someone, why should they want to earn your respect? Are you above them? What if they are thinking the same of you? Would you try to earn the respect of someone you don't yet respect? Seems like a game of "I'm better than you." to me. If no one wants to make the first nod of respect, they why would either of you respect the other?

Your view point makes me sad. Honestly I can't wrap my brain around not only thinking you have to earn respect, but also being aghast at someone who doesn't believe the same thing. "Entitlement attitude" is quite the insult from those that think the way you do. Not appreciated. It has nothing to do with entitlement. It has everything to do with respect.

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

08/30/2012 01:40:44 PM · #27

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
I've never expected to get something for nothing......not a job, respect, or anything else. It's on me to make my way, work hard, try to do the next right thing, and keep plugging along. I don't expect anybody to pave my way.

Try teaching university students, the antithesis of your comment is their credo. That's the reason I quit being a professor.

How do you mean?

Venser

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

08/30/2012 01:51:48 PM · #28

Originally posted by escapetooz:

How do you mean?

You don't know how many times I've heard students tell me they pay tuition therefore I can't fail them. Or they wouldn't even hand in the assignment and be flabbergasted with their well earned zero with no chance for re-submission. Or if you couldn't find the solution on the internet the question was intractable. Or ......

It was pathetic. Nearly every student I taught was useless. They wanted everything spoon fed to them including marks. You'd catch them cheating and go through the proper paperwork to expel them from the class only to get lawyers involved and somehow the university would not only reinstate them, but give them a pass also.

Hard work seems to be lost on today's generation.

Message edited by author 2012-08-30 13:52:03.

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

08/30/2012 02:04:44 PM · #29

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
How do you mean?

You don't know how many times I've heard students tell me they pay tuition therefore I can't fail them. Or they wouldn't even hand in the assignment and be flabbergasted with their well earned zero with no chance for re-submission. Or if you couldn't find the solution on the internet the question was intractable. Or ......

It was pathetic. Nearly every student I taught was useless. They wanted everything spoon fed to them including marks. You'd catch them cheating and go through the proper paperwork to expel them from the class only to get lawyers involved and somehow the university would not only reinstate them, but give them a pass also.

Hard work seems to be lost on today's generation.

Yea I can see that. I was always the nerd who loved the most hated teachers and would hear that sort of ridiculous whining about bad grades that the other students clearly deserved. To give another side though, I had a class where the professor laid down the rules of respect right away. Everyone was "Scholar (last name)" and was encouraged to speak to one another with respect. If one person really needed an extension for sickness or family emergency, the prof's rule was that EVERYONE got the extension to be fair. It was a tough class. I probably worked harder in that class than I did in most of my other college courses. That was honestly one of the best classes I've ever taken. Granted, it was an elective so it's not like anyone was forced to be there. Everyone that was there wanted to be. There was one heckler in the class but he dropped after a day or two when he realized he wasn't getting anywhere.

Also as a kindergarten teacher, I found starting off well and taking away points for bad behavior worked FAR better than starting at zero and adding points for good behavior. Something about starting the day off with 3 smiley faces on the board worked SO much better than starting with nothing. With nothing, the trouble kids wouldn't even bother to try and get stickers because they assumed they were doomed from the start. Once I started them off with a sticker, they behaved much better. Not always perfect, didn't always get the sticker, but I swear by this method. The morale and behavior in the class went noticeably up.

How can I say this so it make sense and doesn't sound "entitlement-ish"... I think people live up to expectations but they also live down to expectations. When I treated my students like bad students, they acted like bad students (I was warned they were the worst class in the school before I started and so I went in there expecting that). When I treated my students like interesting little individuals with lots of potential, they acted like that as well. That's not to say they never misbehaved. But the class saw a big turn around.

Venser

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

08/30/2012 02:22:18 PM · #30

Originally posted by escapetooz:

To give another side though, I had a class where the professor laid down the rules of respect right away. Everyone was "Scholar (last name)" and was encouraged to speak to one another with respect.

Not going to happen when I'm teaching. We need less of this we are all equal shit because it's not the real world. Also, I taught physics, math, and computer science, very little to discuss in those topics. It's either you get it or you don't, and if you don't, you simply have to work hard to move up out of the well.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

If one person really needed an extension for sickness or family emergency, the prof's rule was that EVERYONE got the extension to be fair.

With the number of deaths and family ailments around midterm and final season, I'm really starting to think maybe we should monitor the elderly who have grandchildren in university around those times. The number of deaths we could prevent if we focused care and treatment during those four weeks would be astounding.

I wouldn't give an extension to everybody because the real world doesn't work that way. Life isn't fair, it's important to learn that at an early age.

Originally posted by escapetooz:

Also as a kindergarten teacher, I found starting off well and taking away points for bad behavior worked FAR better than starting at zero and adding points for good behavior. Something about starting the day off with 3 smiley faces on the board worked SO much better than starting with nothing. With nothing, the trouble kids wouldn't even bother to try and get stickers because they assumed they were doomed from the start. Once I started them off with a sticker, they behaved much better. Not always perfect, didn't always get the sticker, but I swear by this method. The morale and behavior in the class went noticeably up.

I'm talking about fourth year university students. I shouldn't have to coddle them or let them suck from my teet. They should be mature enough to understand where they are, what's expected of them, and accept the consequences if they don't measure up.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

08/30/2012 02:32:42 PM · #31

Originally posted by escapetooz:

verb (used with object)
9.
to hold in esteem or honor:
10.
to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.

Regard or consideration seems to be bare minimum in how to treat someone. Everyone deserves respect.

The reason those definitions are entered under separate numbers, is that they are different meanings of the word.
#10 is the universal, it ought to be granted to every person, and every living thing. It is the respect you have for a stranger, the reason you are polite when in public.
#9 is earned. You can not esteem or honor a skill that you have not seen demonstrated. Respect for an ability that is not common to all people can not be granted, it must be earned.

The fact that I respect you as a human being (regard) does not mean I will hire you to build a fence for me. You have to earn my respect for your construction skills by exhibition of that skill set (esteem) before I will respect you as a builder.

It is the same word with different meanings. You have to respect the complexities of the English language.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Nikon

08/30/2012 02:37:21 PM · #32

Originally posted by Venser:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
To give another side though, I had a class where the professor laid down the rules of respect right away. Everyone was "Scholar (last name)" and was encouraged to speak to one another with respect.

Not going to happen when I'm teaching. We need less of this we are all equal shit because it's not the real world. Also, I taught physics, math, and computer science, very little to discuss in those topics. It's either you get it or you don't, and if you don't, you simply have to work hard to move up out of the well.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
If one person really needed an extension for sickness or family emergency, the prof's rule was that EVERYONE got the extension to be fair.

With the number of deaths and family ailments around midterm and final season, I'm really starting to think maybe we should monitor the elderly who have grandchildren in university around those times. The number of deaths we could prevent if we focused care and treatment during those four weeks would be astounding.

I wouldn't give an extension to everybody because the real world doesn't work that way. Life isn't fair, it's important to learn that at an early age.

Originally posted by escapetooz:
Also as a kindergarten teacher, I found starting off well and taking away points for bad behavior worked FAR better than starting at zero and adding points for good behavior. Something about starting the day off with 3 smiley faces on the board worked SO much better than starting with nothing. With nothing, the trouble kids wouldn't even bother to try and get stickers because they assumed they were doomed from the start. Once I started them off with a sticker, they behaved much better. Not always perfect, didn't always get the sticker, but I swear by this method. The morale and behavior in the class went noticeably up.

I'm talking about fourth year university students. I shouldn't have to coddle them or let them suck from my teet. They should be mature enough to understand where they are, what's expected of them, and accept the consequences if they don't measure up.

Life isn't fair that's true. So I don't see the point in making it LESS fair just to teach people a lesson. Let life do what it does. You do what you do as you wish. Doesn't mean you have to coddle or let anyone suck at your teet (thanks for that disgusting mental image btw). You can be strict and also fair. You can teach lessons without being an a unfair. It's unnecessary.

I see I'm debating new theories with old school folks. This never goes well for me. As I said to you in our PM, I'm not good at distilling what has informed my opinions down into a DPC forum equivalent of a sound bite but suffice to say I didn't just pull them from my hippy dippy nether regions. They are based in studies I have read and my own personal experience.

As for your jerky students. Yea, dime a dozen. Not saying I don't know the type, and perhaps some are beyond your ability to teach anything to, but doesn't mean the rest of the students have to suffer for a few jackoffs.

levyj413

Apple iPhone 15 Pro Max

08/30/2012 04:02:57 PM · #33

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by escapetooz:
â��A youth is to be regarded with respect. How do you know that his future will not be equal to our present?â�� - Confucious

I'm sure I could dig around and find a quote, but not really feeling any need to have to support the way I learned values and/or how I grew up. It's just a different way of looking at things. I've never expected to get something for nothing......not a job, respect, or anything else. It's on me to make my way, work hard, try to do the next right thing, and keep plugging along. I don't expect anybody to pave my way.

Jeb, I think you and Monica are missing each other.

I seriously doubt you believe that it's acceptable for you to walk into a restaurant and snap at the first person you see "Get me my food NOW," or otherwise treat them as a slave. And I don't think you deem acceptable people walking around slapping others verbally just because they haven't "earned" respect.

On the other side, I seriously doubt that Monica believes that it's acceptable for her to assume anyone claiming to ever having built something is a good choice for her to hire to build a new house, without checking references.

It's truly possible to give everyone a basic level level of respect while still asking people to earn specific, higher levels of respect.