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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> don't cheat. it's not worth it.
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 08/24/2012 09:08:40 AM · #26
Originally posted by mike_311:
sure there is.

if a player is found to be cheating, strip any records broken awards won, remove any stats acquired, suspend player and void contract.


Still rich, famous, and has lived the dream life up until getting caught (if said person gets caught, and most don't get caught)
 08/24/2012 09:12:27 AM · #27
and thy have to clean the stadium bathrooms the rest of their life.
 08/24/2012 09:14:07 AM · #28
Originally posted by hopper:
He's a multi-millionaire that has been met with nothing but success at everything he's done because he chose to cheat.

If you don't think he put in hours of blood, sweat, and tears on that bike and only succeeded because of drugs, you're delusional.
 08/24/2012 09:19:10 AM · #29
Originally posted by Venser:
If you don't think he put in hours of blood, sweat, and tears on that bike and only succeeded because of drugs, you're delusional.


Of course, that's not what I mean. He's worked harder than I will ever have to ... no question about it.

My only point is that, generally speaking, cheating in sports to succeed has become worth the risk.
 08/24/2012 09:49:06 AM · #30
I̢۪ve been following Lance for years; before he won the TDF, even before he had cancer. After his first TDF win I met him at a race in Vermont and even got to talk to him. I was a fan. After all his wins and what he has done with trying to rid the planet of cancer; he became a personal hero. When my dad was going through chemo for the cancer that eventually took his life; I bought the bracelets. I got him the Livestrong binder that my dad used to track his doctor appointments and to write the gut wrenching account of what he dealt with on a daily basis.
I̢۪m not a young guy anymore so things don̢۪t surprise me like they used too. Not that this surprises me, Sadly, I saw it coming. But it was nice to have that hero. It was nice to have someone to believe in. Now the whole thing just makes me feel empty inside...

Message edited by author 2012-08-24 09:50:16.
 08/24/2012 10:00:25 AM · #31
I'm not convinced. All they have is essentially hearsay - well, you have one guy that got caught and is trying to take down everyone with him... and the media is eating this stuff up and trying to spin it as much as they can to make sure we all read their articles. Witch hunt sounds correct.

Message edited by author 2012-08-24 10:01:41.
 08/24/2012 10:11:12 AM · #32
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
I'm not convinced. All they have is essentially hearsay - well, you have one guy that got caught and is trying to take down everyone with him... and the media is eating this stuff up and trying to spin it as much as they can to make sure we all read their articles. Witch hunt sounds correct.


The thing that gets me is this is one of the most competitive men in the world. Why would he quit now with everything at stake? He’s not someone that gives up on anythingâ€Â¦
 08/24/2012 10:14:36 AM · #33
Originally posted by Tommy_Mac:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
I'm not convinced. All they have is essentially hearsay - well, you have one guy that got caught and is trying to take down everyone with him... and the media is eating this stuff up and trying to spin it as much as they can to make sure we all read their articles. Witch hunt sounds correct.


The thing that gets me is this is one of the most competitive men in the world. Why would he quit now with everything at stake? He’s not someone that gives up on anythingâ€Â¦


i agree.

he stood so much to lose to just give up becuase he was tired of fighting.
 08/24/2012 10:17:52 AM · #34
Originally posted by Tommy_Mac:
The thing that gets me is this is one of the most competitive men in the world. Why would he quit now with everything at stake? He’s not someone that gives up on anythingâ€Â¦

Maybe he sees the writing on the walls and knows eventually he'll lose anyways and everything will be exposed regardless.

---- I'm not saying he did drugs or not, just playing devil's advocate.
 08/24/2012 10:19:38 AM · #35
Imagine here on this site that I was caught cheating the exif data, how would you guys feel and how would I feel ? I would feel terrible and you would feel cheated. Now lets imagine a scenario where you know that I'm cheating and I know that all you guys are cheating and you know that I know, how would we feel now ? that is and has been the situation in their shaved leg world. To think that Lance didn't cheat is just silly, what's happening to him is unjust because so was everybody else. I think they should just let it go now and he should keep his titles, if not where do we stop.

08/24/2012 10:23:47 AM · #36
Originally posted by jagar:
To think that Lance didn't cheat is just silly, what's happening to him is unjust because so was everybody else. I think they should just let it go now and he should keep his titles, if not where do we stop.


While i agree with you in principle, that he cheated becuase everyone else did and he would not have been able to compete if he didn't.

however if you want to stop the cheating, you need to have some sort of punishment. you cant just say, "ok guys, no more cheating."
 08/24/2012 10:27:12 AM · #37
Originally posted by jagar:
Imagine here on this site that I was caught cheating the exif data, how would you guys feel and how would I feel ? I would feel terrible and you would feel cheated.

You might feel terrible at yourself for getting caught, but you wouldn't feel terrible to the general public. You conscientiously chose to manipulate the data; obviously you were cool with it up until the point you got caught.

Originally posted by jagar:
Now lets imagine a scenario where you know that I'm cheating and I know that all you guys are cheating and you know that I know, how would we feel now ? that is and has been the situation in their shaved leg world.

There's got to be some clean riders, those are the guys I feel bad for. They want to compete but can't cross that moral ambiguity line to step up to the other competitors. Poor them.

Originally posted by jagar:
To think that Lance didn't cheat is just silly, what's happening to him is unjust because so was everybody else. I think they should just let it go now and he should keep his titles, if not where do we stop.

Agreed. It's like when Ben Johnson many years ago in '88 tested positive. Turns out only one of those eight men in the 100m has never tested positive in their career, the last place man in that race. The thing is the media needs their sensationalism and scapegoats, it's how they sell advertisements.
 08/24/2012 10:31:24 AM · #38
quote from wikipedia: "Jan Ullrich (born 2 December 1973 in Rostock, Germany) is a German former professional road bicycle racer. In 1997, he was the first German to win the Tour de France. He went on to take five second places and a fourth in 2004. He was stripped of his 2005 third place finish in 2012 following his doping ban. In 2006, Ullrich was barred from the Tour amid speculation of having doped. He retired in late February 2007."

3 of this guys 2nd place finished were to Lance. So he's just gained 3 TDF wins.

Gotta love it :)
 08/24/2012 10:39:18 AM · #39
Originally posted by jagar:
Imagine here on this site that I was caught cheating the exif data, how would you guys feel and how would I feel ? I would feel terrible and you would feel cheated.


Except, the only evidence is gyaban, who says he saw you changing the EXIF data, and for argument's sake he was caught first.

Or am I misunderstanding the 'evidence'?
 08/24/2012 10:46:33 AM · #40
Originally posted by jagar:
Imagine here on this site that I was caught cheating the exif data, how would you guys feel and how would I feel ?

The EXIF data in this case is drug tests, which Armstrong always passed. How would you feel if you worked hard and passed every test, yet the authorities disregarded their own guidelines and disqualified you anyway on a known-cheater's claim or an "everybody does it" assumption?
 08/24/2012 10:47:33 AM · #41
Originally posted by Tommy_Mac:
Originally posted by JamesDowning:
I'm not convinced. All they have is essentially hearsay - well, you have one guy that got caught and is trying to take down everyone with him... and the media is eating this stuff up and trying to spin it as much as they can to make sure we all read their articles. Witch hunt sounds correct.


The thing that gets me is this is one of the most competitive men in the world. Why would he quit now with everything at stake? He’s not someone that gives up on anythingâ€Â¦


It is a chess match. He didn't give up. It is a calculated move to force the UCI to prove his "innocence" and a marketing move to keep the public on his side. He can still claim he never failed a test. That means a lot to the general population. I admire him, but I don't believe he is innocent of doping. His generation doped. Period. AND, he won 7 Tours against a doping top 10. As weird as it sounds, it was fair at the time, but dangerous. I'm glad the sport has moved forward for the younger riders and the future of the sport.

Message edited by author 2012-08-24 10:50:05.
 08/24/2012 10:52:35 AM · #42
+1 to Ben's post.

And yet the press has already stripped him of everything, since they don't bother fact-checking anything first... (pet peeve of mine.)
 08/24/2012 11:13:23 AM · #43
Originally posted by sempermarine:
Originally posted by chazoe:
So, if they award those titles to the first guy not doping, how far do they have to go?


Looks like I have some awards coming my way.



If they take all of Armstrong's titles away how far back would they have to go before finding a clean rider to award the titles to?

"Hey Mr. SOandSO, do you remember in 2001 when you took 4,567th place at the tour de France?"

"I vaguely remember that, I was drunk and did the race on my daughter's tricycle on a dare from my buddies."

"Well, you're the only rider who actually tested clean, well except for the pot and beer, but we don't consider those to be enhancing drugs. So, congratulations you are now awarded the title."

"I don't have to wear that stupid yellow jacket do I?"
 08/24/2012 11:21:00 AM · #44
Originally posted by Melethia:
+1 to Ben's post.

And yet the press has already stripped him of everything, since they don't bother fact-checking anything first... (pet peeve of mine.)

Fully agree with Ben too. How far into the peloton would they have to go to give any stripped titles to a "clean" rider during those times?
Whether he doped or not can be argued and I think he did. But he also put in long hours training like a maniac. His success wasn't all because of dope, and I can't help but think if nobody doped at all his record of victories would still be the same.

Message edited by author 2012-08-24 11:21:40.
 08/24/2012 11:31:10 AM · #45
Also - is there no statute of limitations regarding this type of 'suit'/'trial'/'investigation'?

Seems the MAXIMUM statute of limitations would be 10 years in nearly any state (ok, there are two exceptions).

Message edited by author 2012-08-24 11:32:02.
 08/24/2012 11:33:48 AM · #46
Originally posted by Brent_S:

Fully agree with Ben too. How far into the peloton would they have to go to give any stripped titles to a "clean" rider during those times?
Whether he doped or not can be argued and I think he did. But he also put in long hours training like a maniac. His success wasn't all because of dope, and I can't help but think if nobody doped at all his record of victories would still be the same.


not so sure doping didnt help him. I was listening to a radio show in the past few weeks when they made this point.

lets say that two riders, riders A and B have testosterone levels of 800 and 1300 respectively (i have no idea what the value could be btw, completely arbitrary numbers here) and let say the UCI considers the threshold to fail a test to be 1600.

rider A could double his testosterone levels before getting caught, but rider B can only increase 300 before he gets caught. rider A gains a substantial advantage over rider B.

So just saying it was ok becuase everyone was doing it doesn't really offer any validation.

Message edited by author 2012-08-24 11:34:22.
 08/24/2012 12:17:23 PM · #47
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Brent_S:

Fully agree with Ben too. How far into the peloton would they have to go to give any stripped titles to a "clean" rider during those times?
Whether he doped or not can be argued and I think he did. But he also put in long hours training like a maniac. His success wasn't all because of dope, and I can't help but think if nobody doped at all his record of victories would still be the same.


not so sure doping didnt help him. I was listening to a radio show in the past few weeks when they made this point.

lets say that two riders, riders A and B have testosterone levels of 800 and 1300 respectively (i have no idea what the value could be btw, completely arbitrary numbers here) and let say the UCI considers the threshold to fail a test to be 1600.

rider A could double his testosterone levels before getting caught, but rider B can only increase 300 before he gets caught. rider A gains a substantial advantage over rider B.

So just saying it was ok becuase everyone was doing it doesn't really offer any validation.

Without question if he doped it helped him Mike. And what you bring up might indeed exemplify how some individuals can benefit more from doping than others while staying under the limits. But dope can only get you so far and you still need to train hard. Coming from a bike racing background myself (mostly triathlon) I know what training regiments can be like. And Lance is respected by all his peers for how hard he trained. He started early in the season and stayed on the bike longer than most others each training day rain or shine, even in snow storms.
 08/24/2012 03:26:24 PM · #48
Originally posted by bspurgeon:
The other side


I find it very funny that no where in that entire long statement does he state that the allegations are false. The only thing he keeps repeating is that there is "zero physical evidence". It's almost like he is admitting to it but thinks it's OK because he got away without leaving physical evidence behind.

I'm not going to even speculate on if he cheated or not, but if he did, you know most of the other guys racing did the same thing. The problem is more with the system as a whole than with an individual rider.
 08/24/2012 03:43:20 PM · #49
Giving out penalties for doping during the TDF over those years is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500
 08/24/2012 05:08:51 PM · #50
Mike, recall that Lance is one boy short of a bull with regards to testosterone.

Regarding your example Mike, that doper would not likely see a benefit from exogenous testosterone.
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