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08/15/2012 12:10:02 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Because you have it backwards. The middle and lower class foots the bill for them. |
Really? The numbers I find paint an entirely different story. In Canada, it's roughly the same.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
We need to stop putting the wealthy on a pedestal and stop pretending they are victims. They aren't victims. This "poor little rich people" crap isn't based in any remote sort of reality. |
I already pay 46.41% of my top income to the government. Is this not a big enough chuck? It's kind of absurd to ask for more in my opinion. The NDP in the province of Ontario managed to get another 2% added on to that next year. Do I make a lot of money? Sure, but I earn it. I have a Ph.D. in physics with over 30 published articles. I won every scholarship and award there was in university. Why am I not entitled to the money I earn?
Look, there were things put in place by the government which I, and everyone else, use (scholarships, healthcare, welfare if implemented correctly, ...) that I fully agree with. I understand these cost money and we should finance them through taxation. What we need before raising taxes is eliminating inefficiencies. In Ontario alone, we've squandered over $1.5B in healthcare (eHealth, ORNGE, ...) in the last three years with nothing to show for it. Gone. There was no accountability while that money was being spent. Fix those problems before asking the populace, or the 1%, for more handouts.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
We've had the Bush tax cuts for how long now? Where is the trickle? It's not coming because the wealthy people can afford accountants to funnel their money to offshore bank accounts, like Bain did keeping profits from a deal with Italy in Luxembourg (meaning neither the US nor Italy saw any benefits). Yay America, we love you so much we're going to keep our profits far from you and your people! |
Trickle down economics doesn't work. This is the major fallacy of the Republicans in the States. There are a number of research papers showing this, but I can't access WebSciNet from work. On this point, I'll agree with you.
Message edited by author 2012-08-15 12:16:47. |
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08/15/2012 12:11:55 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here, just go read this, and you'll have a good understanding of about 50% of this country's problems. |
the fact the nearly 50% don't pay any? |
Well if 49.5% don't pay any and the rich aren't paying their "fair share" and we have eroded the middle class, then who's footing the bill? |
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08/15/2012 12:12:32 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here, just go read this, and you'll have a good understanding of about 50% of this country's problems. |
the fact the nearly 50% don't pay any? |
Well if 49.5% don't pay any and the rich aren't paying their "fair share" and we have eroded the middle class, then who's footing the bill? |
in the case of the US?
China.
we cant continue on this pace.
Message edited by author 2012-08-15 12:13:29. |
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08/15/2012 12:15:33 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here, just go read this, and you'll have a good understanding of about 50% of this country's problems. |
the fact the nearly 50% don't pay any? |
Well if 49.5% don't pay any and the rich aren't paying their "fair share" and we have eroded the middle class, then who's footing the bill? |
in the case of the US?
China.
we cant continue on this pace. |
Ok, I'm not disagreeing necessarily, but I would very much like to hear you explain this concept, how do you see it that China is currently footing the bill for the US? |
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08/15/2012 12:17:45 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Because you have it backwards. The middle and lower class foots the bill for them. |
Really? The numbers I find paint an entirely different story. In Canada, it's roughly the same.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
We need to stop putting the wealthy on a pedestal and stop pretending they are victims. They aren't victims. This "poor little rich people" crap isn't based in any remote sort of reality. |
I already pay 46.41% of my top income to the government. Is this not a big enough chuck? It's kind of absurd to ask more in my opinion. The NDP in the province of Ontario managed to get another 2% added on to that next year. Do I make a lot of money? Sure, but I earn it. I have a Ph.D. in physics with over 30 published articles. I won every scholarship and award there was in university. Why am I not entitled to the money I earn?
Look, there were things put in place by the government which I, and everyone else, use (scholarships, healthcare, welfare if implemented correctly, ...) that I fully agree with. I understand these cost money and we should finance them through taxation. What we need before raising taxes is eliminating inefficiencies. In Ontario alone, we've squandered over $1.5B in healthcare (eHealth, ORNGE, ...) in the last three years with nothing to show for it. Gone. There was no accountability while that money was being spent. Fix those problems before asking the populace, or the 1%, for more handouts.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
We've had the Bush tax cuts for how long now? Where is the trickle? It's not coming because the wealthy people can afford accountants to funnel their money to offshore bank accounts, like Bain did keeping profits from a deal with Italy in Luxembourg (meaning neither the US nor Italy saw any benefits). Yay America, we love you so much we're going to keep our profits far from you and your people! |
Trickle down economics doesn't work. This is the major fallacy of the Republicans in the States. There are a number of research papers showing this, but I can't access WebSciNet from work. On this point, I'll agree with you. |
This is the frustrating part. Saying the wealthy don't pay enough is seen as a personal attack. First of all I honestly don't know anything about Canadian policies. Second of all the Bush tax cuts are for the top 1% who find all kinds of loopholes to not pay their taxes anyway.
The middle and lower class should not pay a HIGHER tax rate than the rich. That just seems like common sense. 30% of a poor persons income could be the difference between a comfortable life and homelessness. 30% for a rich person would make no impact on their daily life.
But I'm in the extreme on this one. I don't think any one person should be allowed to have billions. As was mentioned... did they really do a billion dollars worth of work? No. Not all rich people are hard working, and even if they are, the hard work doesn't equal the amount of money they are making.
After visiting places like Haiti and the DR it's laughable to come back to the states and see billionaires whining about poor people taking advantage. They need a good dose of a reality check. |
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08/15/2012 12:19:56 PM · #31 |
| well who is lending us money right now? |
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08/15/2012 12:20:42 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here, just go read this, and you'll have a good understanding of about 50% of this country's problems. |
the fact the nearly 50% don't pay any? |
Well if 49.5% don't pay any and the rich aren't paying their "fair share" and we have eroded the middle class, then who's footing the bill? |
in the case of the US?
China.
we cant continue on this pace. |
Ok, I'm not disagreeing necessarily, but I would very much like to hear you explain this concept, how do you see it that China is currently footing the bill for the US? |
Here would be one example: Ipad factory in China.
The next year, a Foxconn employee fell or jumped from an apartment building after losing an iPhone prototype. Over the next two years, at least 18 other Foxconn workers attempted suicide or fell from buildings in manners that suggested suicide attempts.
Prime example of disenfranchising the poor to benefit the wealthy. It's a cruel world out there. The American dream for the most part is a bunch of fluff and bullshit. For huge corporations like Apple, McDonalds, etc, etc, poor people are paying for it all along the way. |
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08/15/2012 12:25:00 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Venser:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Because you have it backwards. The middle and lower class foots the bill for them. |
Really? The numbers I find paint an entirely different story. In Canada, it's roughly the same.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
We need to stop putting the wealthy on a pedestal and stop pretending they are victims. They aren't victims. This "poor little rich people" crap isn't based in any remote sort of reality. |
I already pay 46.41% of my top income to the government. Is this not a big enough chuck? It's kind of absurd to ask more in my opinion. The NDP in the province of Ontario managed to get another 2% added on to that next year. Do I make a lot of money? Sure, but I earn it. I have a Ph.D. in physics with over 30 published articles. I won every scholarship and award there was in university. Why am I not entitled to the money I earn?
Look, there were things put in place by the government which I, and everyone else, use (scholarships, healthcare, welfare if implemented correctly, ...) that I fully agree with. I understand these cost money and we should finance them through taxation. What we need before raising taxes is eliminating inefficiencies. In Ontario alone, we've squandered over $1.5B in healthcare (eHealth, ORNGE, ...) in the last three years with nothing to show for it. Gone. There was no accountability while that money was being spent. Fix those problems before asking the populace, or the 1%, for more handouts.
Originally posted by escapetooz:
We've had the Bush tax cuts for how long now? Where is the trickle? It's not coming because the wealthy people can afford accountants to funnel their money to offshore bank accounts, like Bain did keeping profits from a deal with Italy in Luxembourg (meaning neither the US nor Italy saw any benefits). Yay America, we love you so much we're going to keep our profits far from you and your people! |
Trickle down economics doesn't work. This is the major fallacy of the Republicans in the States. There are a number of research papers showing this, but I can't access WebSciNet from work. On this point, I'll agree with you. |
This is the frustrating part. Saying the wealthy don't pay enough is seen as a personal attack. First of all I honestly don't know anything about Canadian policies. Second of all the Bush tax cuts are for the top 1% who find all kinds of loopholes to not pay their taxes anyway.
The middle and lower class should not pay a HIGHER tax rate than the rich. That just seems like common sense. 30% of a poor persons income could be the difference between a comfortable life and homelessness. 30% for a rich person would make no impact on their daily life.
But I'm in the extreme on this one. I don't think any one person should be allowed to have billions. As was mentioned... did they really do a billion dollars worth of work? No. Not all rich people are hard working, and even if they are, the hard work doesn't equal the amount of money they are making.
After visiting places like Haiti and the DR it's laughable to come back to the states and see billionaires whining about poor people taking advantage. They need a good dose of a reality check. |
My question is this: Why do we need to make a distinction beyond 50K of income?
Sure, if you make 15k or 20k a year, you should get a break on what you need to pay in terms of percentages, as you're already without much margin, but once you make more than 50K a year, a flat tax rate just makes sense, no loopholes, no bullshit, no excuses, live here, pay here. And I think 25% would be the perfect number. |
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08/15/2012 12:30:01 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Prime example of disenfranchising the poor to benefit the wealthy. It's a cruel world out there. The American dream for the most part is a bunch of fluff and bullshit. For huge corporations like Apple, McDonalds, etc, etc, poor people are paying for it all along the way. |
so why aren't we blaming China for managing an economy that allows companies to use their people as cheap labor, if there are no regulation in place to keep jobs here why is it the corporation's fault for exploiting it? |
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08/15/2012 12:30:01 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Cory:
My question is this: Why do we need to make a distinction beyond 50K of income?
Sure, if you make 15k or 20k a year, you should get a break on what you need to pay in terms of percentages, as you're already without much margin, but once you make more than 50K a year, a flat tax rate just makes sense, no loopholes, no bullshit, no excuses, live here, pay here. And I think 25% would be the perfect number. |
So someone making 50k and someone making 500 million a year should pay exactly the same? That seems ridiculous to me. 50k might be a good living (I'd take it) if you had it all for living but what about if you have mountains of student loans or medical bills?
No. I don't think that would be the treshhold at all. But that's besides the point. There ARE loopholes. There IS bullshit. The people at the top can afford to find them, the 50k person in general probably can't. |
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08/15/2012 12:31:02 PM · #36 |
not same amount, same rate.
and i am not thrilled with my tax dollars going to help those ho incur massive amounts of debt.
Message edited by author 2012-08-15 12:32:13. |
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08/15/2012 12:32:08 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Prime example of disenfranchising the poor to benefit the wealthy. It's a cruel world out there. The American dream for the most part is a bunch of fluff and bullshit. For huge corporations like Apple, McDonalds, etc, etc, poor people are paying for it all along the way. |
so why aren't we blaming China for managing an economy that allows companies to use their people as cheap labor, if there are no regulation in place to keep jobs here why is it the corporation's fault for exploiting it? |
Did you honestly just say that? It's not the corporations fault that they went out of their way to go to a country that doesn't have regulations like the US? Shall we expect the whole world to change their laws so our corporations aren't tempted? Or should we expect some of the worlds largest economies (the corporations) to give back to the country they started in and give jobs to the American people?
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08/15/2012 12:33:20 PM · #38 |
| Not being insulting here, but trying to follow this thread is like trying to listen to a conversation of inmates at the asylum. The flight of ideas is occuring at an astounding pace! |
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08/15/2012 12:33:33 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Flash:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Cory:
Here, just go read this, and you'll have a good understanding of about 50% of this country's problems. |
the fact the nearly 50% don't pay any? |
Well if 49.5% don't pay any and the rich aren't paying their "fair share" and we have eroded the middle class, then who's footing the bill? |
in the case of the US?
China.
we cant continue on this pace. |
Ok, I'm not disagreeing necessarily, but I would very much like to hear you explain this concept, how do you see it that China is currently footing the bill for the US? |
Here would be one example: Ipad factory in China.
The next year, a Foxconn employee fell or jumped from an apartment building after losing an iPhone prototype. Over the next two years, at least 18 other Foxconn workers attempted suicide or fell from buildings in manners that suggested suicide attempts.
Prime example of disenfranchising the poor to benefit the wealthy. It's a cruel world out there. The American dream for the most part is a bunch of fluff and bullshit. For huge corporations like Apple, McDonalds, etc, etc, poor people are paying for it all along the way. |
I was not aware that the US economy relied so heavily upon Apple.
Frankly, this argument is bullshit, and you both know it. Nothing is at all this clear cut, and China does not own, or support the US. |
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08/15/2012 12:36:33 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Did you honestly just say that? It's not the corporations fault that they went out of their way to go to a country that doesn't have regulations like the US? Shall we expect the whole world to change their laws so our corporations aren't tempted? Or should we expect some of the worlds largest economies (the corporations) to give back to the country they started in and give jobs to the American people? |
i didn't say it wasn't their fault, just not all their fault. the US could easily enact laws that would force the jobs back over here but they dont becuase the corporation have them in their pockets.
and im pretty sure a war would ensue if they did
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08/15/2012 12:37:23 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
well who is lending us money right now? |
Mostly the American people.
Granted, China is the #1 foreign investor, but they are not the majority holder.
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08/15/2012 12:40:25 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Cory:
I was not aware that the US economy relied so heavily upon Apple.
Frankly, this argument is bullshit, and you both know it. Nothing is at all this clear cut, and China does not own, or support the US. |
This was one anecdotal example. Not a measure for the entire economy. We all know this kind of stuff is happening right now all over the world.
And excuse me, China doesn't support the US?
"In total, China owns about 8 percent of publicly held U.S. debt. Of all the holders of U.S. debt China is the third-largest, behind only the Social Security Trust Fund's holdings of nearly $3 trillion and the Federal Reserve's nearly $2 trillion holdings in Treasury investments, purchased as part of its quantitative easing program to boost the economy." |
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08/15/2012 12:41:38 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
personally i dont care to see an evening out of wealth, why should the wealthy have to foot the bill for the middle and especially lower class. |
"Evening out" only means the rich shouldn't get away with far lower tax rate than everybody else. Paul Ryan's original budget plan completely eliminated taxes on capital gains, and Mitt Romney himself pointed out that despite making tens of millions in income, "Under that plan, Iâd have paid no taxes in the last two years.â Ryan's new budget scheme doesn't say anything about capital gains, although Ryan remains opposed to increasing that tax. So Ryan's new budget under the best case scenario would tax Romney's millions at 15% or less while the middle class pays 25%. Does this sound reasonable? For reference, Reagan's Tax Reform Act of 1986 treated capital gains as regular income and subject to the same tax rates (the first George Bush axed that four years later). Obama's Buffet Rule was an attempt to restore the same principle Reagan used, but was branded as class warfare. He should have called it the Reagan Rule. |
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08/15/2012 12:42:40 PM · #44 |
The point is the rich don't get rich by their bootstraps alone. And I'm not talking about wealthy doctors and lawyers. I'm talking about big, billion dollar corporate heads and folks like them. The majority of them get rich by exploiting the poor and the middle class and by making the laws and government work for them. There is no way around that. To think otherwise is to have your head in the clouds.
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08/15/2012 12:42:47 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
...and the Federal Reserve's nearly $2 trillion holdings in Treasury investments, purchased as part of its quantitative easing program to boost the economy." |
Hehe. Whoever wrote this wrote it like they really believe the Federal Reserve is going to be "paid back"? All this statement means is that we have printed (and debased) our currency by $2 trillion.
Message edited by author 2012-08-15 12:43:17. |
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08/15/2012 12:44:57 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Cory:
I was not aware that the US economy relied so heavily upon Apple.
Frankly, this argument is bullshit, and you both know it. Nothing is at all this clear cut, and China does not own, or support the US. |
This was one anecdotal example. Not a measure for the entire economy. We all know this kind of stuff is happening right now all over the world.
And excuse me, China doesn't support the US?
"In total, China owns about 8 percent of publicly held U.S. debt. Of all the holders of U.S. debt China is the third-largest, behind only the Social Security Trust Fund's holdings of nearly $3 trillion and the Federal Reserve's nearly $2 trillion holdings in Treasury investments, purchased as part of its quantitative easing program to boost the economy." |
Nope, that's not supporting. It's partnering with, or investing in, or whatever you may wish to call it, but 8% is not supporting the US... We could very easily live without that 8%, we just have our reasons why it's beneficial... (if you doubt this, go study up on why foreign debt is actually a good thing, as I don't have time to explain that in full)... |
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08/15/2012 12:46:37 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
Originally posted by Cory:
I was not aware that the US economy relied so heavily upon Apple.
Frankly, this argument is bullshit, and you both know it. Nothing is at all this clear cut, and China does not own, or support the US. |
This was one anecdotal example. Not a measure for the entire economy. We all know this kind of stuff is happening right now all over the world.
And excuse me, China doesn't support the US?
"In total, China owns about 8 percent of publicly held U.S. debt. Of all the holders of U.S. debt China is the third-largest, behind only the Social Security Trust Fund's holdings of nearly $3 trillion and the Federal Reserve's nearly $2 trillion holdings in Treasury investments, purchased as part of its quantitative easing program to boost the economy." |
Nope, that's not supporting. It's partnering with, or investing in, or whatever you may wish to call it, but 8% is not supporting the US... We could very easily live without that 8%, we just have our reasons why it's beneficial... (if you doubt this, go study up on why foreign debt is actually a good thing, as I don't have time to explain that in full)... |
And by that logic if you get federal loans for college, the government isn't supporting you either?
What exactly does support mean to you? |
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08/15/2012 12:46:51 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by escapetooz:
The point is the rich don't get rich by their bootstraps alone. And I'm not talking about wealthy doctors and lawyers. I'm talking about big, billion dollar corporate heads and folks like them. The majority of them get rich by exploiting the poor and the middle class and by making the laws and government work for them. There is no way around that. To think otherwise is to have your head in the clouds. |
This I absolutely agree with. |
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08/15/2012 12:50:54 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Cory:
Originally posted by escapetooz:
The point is the rich don't get rich by their bootstraps alone. And I'm not talking about wealthy doctors and lawyers. I'm talking about big, billion dollar corporate heads and folks like them. The majority of them get rich by exploiting the poor and the middle class and by making the laws and government work for them. There is no way around that. To think otherwise is to have your head in the clouds. |
This I absolutely agree with. |
YAY! |
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08/15/2012 12:51:40 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
...tax Romney's millions at 15% or less while the middle class pays 25%.. |
I'm not blaming you, but it's soooo hard to compare these numbers (and it gets done all the time). Nobody in the middle class actually pays 25% of their income in tax. First you pay that tax % only on the chunk of income that falls within the bracket (ie. only the dollars between $35,000 and $85,000 (for a single person) are taxed at 25%). The first $35,000 was taxed at a non-deduction effective rate of 11.3%. So, for example, someone making $50,000 will be taxed at an effective rate of...15.3%. And even that number is not very good because we aren't taking into account any deductions nor are we taking into account other taxes like social security.
Capital gains, on the other hand, as far as I know is a real 15%. What did you make? Multiply that by 0.15. That's your tax bill.
Message edited by author 2012-08-15 12:53:16. |
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