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05/31/2012 01:53:44 PM · #1 |
Hi Everyone â Iâve officially been around here for about 6 months now, and I would like to make a suggestion if I may. I remember a thread a while ago asking about how this site could be made better to attract (and keep) its members. Sadly, I didnât chime in at that time, but Iâve been giving it a lot of thought lately because I have found that my photography â according to my scores â really hasnât improved a great deal since I started here. In fact, Iâm a perfect âmehâ and I find that kind of depressing. I want to be better than âmehâ and believe me, I have been putting in the hours to try to improve (by submitting entries, exploring training on the internet and reading books). My stats are as follows:
Challenges Entered: 29
Votes Cast: 5,997
Avg Vote Cast: 6.1154
Votes Received: 3,497
Avg Vote Received: 5.5150
I guess that one of the things I was hoping to learn when I joined is what to look for in a really great photo. Now, I can look at some photos and appreciate the beauty in them, but to someone who is trying to unlock the mystery of great photography, the question is: What makes this so good? The answer to that question, in my mind, is a couple of things - technical ability and the âfeelingâ the photographer was able to convey through his/her technique.
When I enter challenges, my expectation is to hopefully receive some comments so I can learn whether Iâm applying my knowledge properly, and if not, how I can improve. Unfortunately, people seem quite reluctant to leave comments with âmid-rangeâ or lower photos, so as a result, Iâm not getting much useful feed-back. I hear other peopleâs complaints here about lack of comments as well, so I donât think Iâm alone with this thought.
I think a different way to approach this may be as follows:
Instead of expecting comments on my photos, it might be better to take a look at the top performers, read the comments, and see where they went ârightâ. I have tried to do that, but quite often the comments people leave have meaning to those folks who understand good technique already, but can be a little lacking in information for those of us who are trying to learn.
My suggestion would be as follows: On the ribbon-winning entries, could those of you who understand what makes it a âgreatâ photo please give more explanation to the reasons why? For example, when you congratulate the photographer for having won, could you add a line for new photographers The reason this photo is exceptional to me is because ___________. In other words, point out the important things to look at (even if it is just one aspect, if a few people do this the important points should all get covered and it wonât be too onerous for one person to do).
I think that would give a great reference point to start learning because I can apply it back to my own challenge entry and try to figure out how I can improve.
Just a thought for considerationâ¦â¦â¦..and my thanks for listening.
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05/31/2012 02:21:42 PM · #2 |
As you have already seen, it is hard to get comments on those midrange entries. It is easy to wow over the great shot and easy to make note of obvious shortcomings in the poor ones. But those midrange entries are tough. Nothing really wrong with them, but they don't make you go "wow" either.
My solution to that early on was to do more commenting of my own and to concentrate that commenting on the shots that got 4's and 5's from me. By forcing myself to analyze why I was only meh about a pic, I was learning things that I could apply to my own photography. It takes a lot longer to do this however, and I only commented on 20-30% of the entries in a challenge for a while.
The side benefit of this is that you will sometimes get a response to these comments and will get to know others on the forum better for it. Occasionally you may get someone who has a problem with receiving a critique from you, but most of us recognize that this is as much for the commenter and we take it as the personal opinion that it is.
BTW, it took me a lot longer and many more challenges than yourself to reach a 5.5 average. After 400+ challenges, my average isn't much above yours, so you are actually doing quite well on the popular appeal scale.
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05/31/2012 03:00:52 PM · #3 |
| It IS frustrating, but as Steve said, 6 months is NOT a long time, and you just have to keep plugging away at it. I would recommend that you get specific about what you want to improve, as "everything" is just too general. Start with one thing (i.e. lighting, pov, dof, etc.) and play around with those techniques until you are comfortable using them. Most people who report great improvement usually go way out of their comfort zone in terms of topics, techniques, etc. |
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05/31/2012 03:43:07 PM · #4 |
Actually, to me it looks like you have improved a great deal...
Message edited by author 2012-05-31 15:46:05. |
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05/31/2012 03:46:00 PM · #5 |
| Mary, I went through some of your images and thinking your doing well. My average isn't very high either but that's not everything. If your goal is to win ribbons and score higher I'd recommend studying your voting history. If the images you score highest usually win then you have an eye for what does well here. My track record isn't very good but now and then I'm surprised. Take some extra time to study the images that you scored high and finished in the top 10. Try to apply what you like about these images to your own. You can actually learn a lot from voting and commenting in these challenges. |
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05/31/2012 04:32:44 PM · #6 |
Thanks everyone for your comments - I think that I get a little scared about commenting on images unless I have something nice to say because I am not confident enough in applying a critique to someone else's work. And Henry, no I don't usually pick out the highest scoring images. Maybe I score too much on an emotional level, which is ok I guess, but I would love to learn more about the technical aspects so I can make a more rounded decision when it comes to scoring a photo. That's why I thought it might be helpful if experienced photographers could point out a few of those things on the ribbon winners.
I definitely plan on plugging away with my learning, and will continue to enter challenges. Is my goal to win a ribbon? Sure, who wouldn't want to win a ribbon, but it's not the end all be all. I'm just really enjoying the photography a whole bunch.
And James - the graph may show some different results after the "green macro" and the "Imagination" scores are in :(
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05/31/2012 05:07:03 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by flaherma:
Thanks everyone for your comments - I think that I get a little scared about commenting on images unless I have something nice to say because I am not confident enough in applying a critique to someone else's work. |
As  Yo_Spiff mentioned, you will learn more from the comments you make than from those given to you ... try to remember that there are no "wrong" answers to "I like ____ because ..." and "I don't like ___ because ..." as long as you fill out the part after the "because" ...
Message edited by author 2012-05-31 17:07:21. |
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05/31/2012 07:41:33 PM · #8 |
I third the "make lots of comments yourself" suggestion. It makes you look at things carefully, which is the first requirement for shooting better, since you need to KNOW which ones of your own are the best to submit.
Next, I'd like to point out that you shouldn't take the scores here as the end all be all of photography or aesthetics. The votes here illustrate how much the voting populace thinks your photo fits into the DPC aesthetic. Some styles are not appreciated here, and some are overappreciated. This is true of all communities, so just understand that your score only illustrates how you fit into what DPC currently likes.
I agree with you that the majority of comments here are sorta light on the content, so I think that's certainly a fair criticism. Anytime I comment I try to say why something does/doesn't work for me. If you make yourself say why, you'll start doing it to your own images.
Which brings me to the most important suggestion-
Take an objective view of your photo. Forget having been there taking it, the struggle to get the shot, the horrible conditions, the narrow slice of time you had, the emotion, the joy, the magic. Throw it out the window. THEN LOOK AT YOUR PHOTO. You need to do this because that is what the viewer sees; a photo stripped of context and experience. As such, you must PROVIDE that in your photo or it will always be a meh shot. The best shots, across the board and for every voting populace, are ones that take the viewer someplace personal, but you won't realize if your work is doing that unless you remove what you've already put there.
ETA: Don't pressure yourself too much either. You've already gotten some pretty high scores, ones which often take folks very long to accomplish. It's necessary to have drive, but don't get down on yourself if you're not going at the rate you wanted to. It's not easy, it takes time. You're doing well, just keep at it.
Message edited by author 2012-05-31 19:45:20. |
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05/31/2012 08:06:10 PM · #9 |
I fourth the making comments. you will find good images are easy to comment on, since its easy to find what you like in them, not so good is harder. You actually need to determine what it is about an image you dont like. Is it the lighting, composition, subject, processing? you will find the more you do it, the less likely you are to make those sane mistakes yourself. You can also comment about how they could make it better. Would it be more interesting if the crop was better? How about the placement if the subject? Where dies your eye go? Where should it go?
Asking those questions and more and using them yo help you comment will help you more than you know. |
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05/31/2012 08:20:36 PM · #10 |
| Sandwich your constructive criticism between things you like about the image. Especially important is to find "something" you like about an image to mention in the conclusion of your comments. This is a peer review website. Treat your peers as you would like to be treated yourself. |
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05/31/2012 08:33:45 PM · #11 |
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05/31/2012 10:42:36 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Take an objective view of your photo. Forget having been there taking it, the struggle to get the shot, the horrible conditions, the narrow slice of time you had, the emotion, the joy, the magic. Throw it out the window. THEN LOOK AT YOUR PHOTO. You need to do this because that is what the viewer sees; a photo stripped of context and experience. As such, you must PROVIDE that in your photo or it will always be a meh shot. The best shots, across the board and for every voting populace, are ones that take the viewer someplace personal, but you won't realize if your work is doing that unless you remove what you've already put there. |
One thing I did for a couple of years that helped me do this was to put a list of anticipated critiques in my photographers notes prior to a challenge. Looking for potential flaws and criticisms of my work helped me to remove myself and look at it from the outside. It also made the comments into a game for me.
Here's an example. This one is particularly interesting to me, as it scored significantly lower than a nearly identical shot from the same set that was free of motion blur (I prefer the lower scoring shot with the blur). It helps illustrate an aspect of an entry (blur) that not all agree on.
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Anticipated critiques/comments:
-I expect some will not like the motion blur and may perceive it as unfocused. (I had a number of other shots that were crisp and clear, but they also looked like he was casually resting the hammer on top of the spike)
-Too busy
-The mortar in the background is a distracting element. (If this was advanced editing, I would have darkened it a bit.)
-Should have cropped closer. (Tried it that way, didn't like it.) |
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06/01/2012 03:29:04 PM · #13 |
Thank you everyone for your very valuable feedback. I do intend to put your ideas into action immediately. As I read in one of these threads not so long ago, "you only get back what you put in" - very good common sense advice.
I think the thing that really got me worried about the commenting/voting was the jmritz challenge. I cannot tell you how moved I was by some of those images, however I chose not to vote because I felt quite overwhelmed by trying to decide which was better than the next. I should have voted purely on my emotional reaction but I just didn't feel it was fair to do that not understanding some of the reasons that made one shot more technically better than the rest. The other thing that worried me about voting was that I just didn't think I could fairly say which image best represented jmritz's style, once again because I was unsure what to "really" look for. Thanks GeneralE for the links you supplied. I will absolutely think of those the next time I am commenting/voting.
Anyway, I don't want to beat this to death. I would like to say to everyone who entered an image in that challenge that it was one of my favorite challenges to view so far, and has opened up a whole new appreciation of trying something that is out of my comfort zone (as Joanna said).
I'm outta here for a couple days to go fishing, there's a hungry walleye out there with my name on it..........hope everyone has a great weekend. |
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06/01/2012 03:50:51 PM · #14 |
Heeeeerrreeeee fishy, fishy, fishy!!!!!!
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