expert editing thursday - DPChallenge Forums

Nikon MF Micro-Nikkor 85mm f/2.8D PC

05/20/2012 08:45:02 PM · #26

Originally posted by jagar:

In certain circumstances we create our own luck. If I'm having a street shooting day, I can easily walk for five or six hours in one day, magnificent things happen all around us all the time, its just a question of spotting them, some days we do it better than others. This photo was taken outside the most beautiful church in Porto Potrugal, there were many photographers standing right next to me with lots of gear but all of them pointing in the other direction.

you have more patience than i do.

chazoe

Nikon Z7 FX

05/20/2012 09:38:04 PM · #27

l have always wished we could have more challenges. So, having an expert and a minimal/basic come out at the same time would be a welcome change for me.

The more the merrier as they say.

PennyStreet

Olympus OM-D E-M1

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

05/20/2012 09:41:23 PM · #28

Having a choice of expert or minimal would make me very happy. That way I could do either.
Truly, I'm tired of expert but you never know.... if we had a minimal every week I'd probably be tired of that too.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

05/20/2012 09:50:32 PM · #29

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

+84

I would absolutely love having a choice on Thursdays between expert and minimal. I see the purpose for expert editing challenges, but actually, I'm getting sick of doing them because they're happening so often. I know I can skip those challenges, but I try to enter everything just to have a wider range of experiences. But since expert editing challenges are so intensive, it would be nice to be able to choose a less intensive option without having to just skip the challenge.

PennyStreet

Olympus OM-D E-M1

Olympus 17mm f/1.8 M.Zuiko

05/20/2012 10:06:34 PM · #30

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Having a choice of expert or minimal would make me very happy. That way I could do either.
Truly, I'm tired of expert but you never know.... if we had a minimal every week I'd probably be tired of that too.

+84

I would absolutely love having a choice on Thursdays between expert and minimal. I see the purpose for expert editing challenges, but actually, I'm getting sick of doing them because they're happening so often. I know I can skip those challenges, but I try to enter everything just to have a wider range of experiences. But since expert editing challenges are so intensive, it would be nice to be able to choose a less intensive option without having to just skip the challenge.

It's not so much that minimal is easy, or even less intense (emotionally for me anyway)... just different.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

05/20/2012 10:25:48 PM · #31

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Originally posted by vawendy:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:
Having a choice of expert or minimal would make me very happy. That way I could do either.
Truly, I'm tired of expert but you never know.... if we had a minimal every week I'd probably be tired of that too.

+84

I would absolutely love having a choice on Thursdays between expert and minimal. I see the purpose for expert editing challenges, but actually, I'm getting sick of doing them because they're happening so often. I know I can skip those challenges, but I try to enter everything just to have a wider range of experiences. But since expert editing challenges are so intensive, it would be nice to be able to choose a less intensive option without having to just skip the challenge.

It's not so much that minimal is easy, or even less intense (emotionally for me anyway)... just different.

Definitely not saying that it's easy -- just less intense, because I'm much more comfortable with what I'm doing. Trying to cut out a squirrels tail from a background of leaves was one of the most frustrating experiences I've had with DPC! :)

A couple of hours behind a camera is not quite as frustrating. (close, at times, but not quite :)

mbrutus2009

Nikon D850

Nikon AF-S Nikkor 16-35 f/4 ED VR

05/20/2012 10:39:56 PM · #32

Originally posted by mike_311:

nothing is stopping you from entering a minimal editing in expert.

Normally I would agree with this but with that said, I think a weekly minimal challenge would give the illusion of diversity that I think could bring the DPC community to a common agreement on this subject. It would do a few things, one make everyone who go back and forth with this subject happy as they have now both "won" and now can enter what they want as they want. Two, it would give more opportunity to for more challenges per week. This could even go as far as doing a "same challenge, different editing rules" every Thursday. For example, next week could be Green - Expert editing rules and Green - Minimal editing rules

See where I am going with that? Hope that makes sense.

ambaker

Google Glass Google Glass

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

05/21/2012 05:44:07 PM · #33

As one who normally does little more than basic rules editing, I may have some bias....

However, in one breath people wonder about how to attract fresh blood and interest new people in DPC. In the next, people who have been here for awhile want to see few to no basic or minimal challenges.

The question becomes... Are we a relatively closed group who only wants the top talent darkening our doors? (1x)

Or are we inviting all photograpers of all skills to come, compete, and learn? My concern is that if all the challenges we offer are expert and advanced, will that be intimidating to people considering joining?

Just a thought....

Alyn

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 II

05/21/2012 06:10:24 PM · #34

Originally posted by ambaker:

My concern is that if all the challenges we offer are expert and advanced, will that be intimidating to people considering joining?

Definitely. If people feel like their skill set is already way below what they see in challenges, it's intimidating and discouraging.

Brent_S

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II

05/21/2012 06:34:47 PM · #35

Originally posted by ambaker:

I am totally with you on wanting some rulesets that will help the beginners feel comfortable stepping into things here Alex. I agree you that more Minimal challenges would be helpful, but I don't think more Basic challenges would be better for the beginners- not as things are many years after the Basic ruleset started.

A beginner will likely read the basic rules and think these are perfect for them. Most likely they will produce a rather flat image with overexposed areas following basic rules and then be frustrated by how other people manage to get more controlled images that pop legally under basic.
They will be oblivious to all the little tricks you can legally use to get around the limits of basic rules. They will either need to figure these out on their own over time as I did or have a member in the know explain it to them. Or as I worry, they will just get frustrated and leave. As far as I know there are no tutorials on the web that teach you how to do destructive processing techniques that will get you around the limitations of Basic rules ;)

Since Basic rules were first implemented there are now thousands of free tutorials on the web that can teach beginners how to do a decent job under Advanced rules using free software. And it really would not take someone long at all to get up to speed this way rather than stumbling around trying to make images pop under basic rules.

More Minimal challenges to help bring in beginners I think is a good idea. But Basic rules just leave them vulnerable in my view. Beginners would really be better off with Advanced rules and some links to free tutorials to get them up to speed.

Message edited by author 2012-05-21 18:36:57.

ambaker

Google Glass Google Glass

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM

05/21/2012 10:13:11 PM · #36

I agree, minimal is an even better choice to potentially attract new members.

Sony Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 ZA

05/22/2012 07:19:01 AM · #37

Originally posted by ambaker:

I agree, minimal is an even better choice to potentially attract new members.

and get rid of existing members in the process...

salmiakki

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

05/22/2012 07:23:25 AM · #38

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by ambaker:
I agree, minimal is an even better choice to potentially attract new members.

and get rid of existing members in the process...

Not sure why you say that, you may leave if there are more minimal editing challenges, others may leave if there are not further minimal editing challenges and we just follow the expert editing path. As I showed in an earlier post, minimal challenges seem to have a larger participation than expert, so your hypothesis could work both ways.

Originally posted by salmiakki:

.......but statistically there are more entries (on average) in minimal editing challenges than there are in Expert :) We have had 37 completed expert editing challenges and only 14 completed minimal editing challenges. I calculated (but did exclude the 2 expert free studies, as there has never been a minimal free study so it's not comparable) that the average number of participants in the 35 expert challenges is 85 and in the minimal editing is 118.

Average participants for minimal in 2011/2012 = 95
Average participants for expert in 2011/2012 = 68.
Number of minimal challenges since beginning of 2011 = 6
Number of expert =23.

So bring on the minimal challenges! ETA. There is room for both, or at least there should be.

Also, please note the stats are very rough calculations

Venser

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

05/22/2012 07:25:29 AM · #39

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by ambaker:
I agree, minimal is an even better choice to potentially attract new members.

and get rid of existing members in the process...

You say that, but expert is pushing people like myself away from the site. Hate it. Hate most of the ribbon winners.

CS

Sony Sonnar T* 35mm F2.8 ZA

05/22/2012 08:00:33 AM · #40

Originally posted by salmiakki:

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by ambaker:
I agree, minimal is an even better choice to potentially attract new members.

and get rid of existing members in the process...

Not sure why you say that, you may leave if there are more minimal editing challenges, others may leave if there are not further minimal editing challenges and we just follow the expert editing path. As I showed in an earlier post, minimal challenges seem to have a larger participation than expert, so your hypothesis could work both ways.

Originally posted by salmiakki:
.......but statistically there are more entries (on average) in minimal editing challenges than there are in Expert :) We have had 37 completed expert editing challenges and only 14 completed minimal editing challenges. I calculated (but did exclude the 2 expert free studies, as there has never been a minimal free study so it's not comparable) that the average number of participants in the 35 expert challenges is 85 and in the minimal editing is 118.

Average participants for minimal in 2011/2012 = 95
Average participants for expert in 2011/2012 = 68.
Number of minimal challenges since beginning of 2011 = 6
Number of expert =23.

So bring on the minimal challenges! ETA. There is room for both, or at least there should be.

Also, please note the stats are very rough calculations

I'll admit, when i first started here i was intimidated by advanced and expert editing, but then i realized how wrong i was.

i said this in the past that we need to purge and rename the editing sets.

minimal/basic editing minimal is too limiting, and basic is pointless so merge them.
standard editing - advanced editing is no where where anything that resemble advanced techniques, its constitutes standard editing that most people do anyway.
enhanced editing - there are very few experts here, nor do you need to be an expert to use this style of editing so lets stop calling it expert.

i think people get turned off by the names.

salmiakki

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

05/22/2012 08:03:51 AM · #41

Originally posted by mike_311:

Yes, you've said on many occasions.

05/22/2012 08:06:23 AM · #42

Originally posted by salmiakki:

Yes, you've said on many occasions.

and i'm going to keep saying until people realize that expert editing on this site isn't and neither is advanced.

Message edited by author 2012-05-22 08:06:42.

Mark-A

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/22/2012 08:14:50 AM · #43

Originally posted by cosmicassassin:

Thanks :(

I tried very hard to keep mine photographic in nature and will do in my future entries. Nothing against any other artists work (I admire the skill that "other" artists have in putting together some extremely complex works but on a personal level I still want my images to look photograph like - the only reason I use "other" is I don't think we need to be talking about a specific persons work really as it gets a bit like a Witch hunt and I'd rather keep it general.

If you don't like a style then vote accordingly if u don't like a challenge topic then don't enter but not entering a challenge because it's in expert rather than advanced is a little unnecessary - I could have pulled my red ribbon pic off with advanced and it would have looked very similar I believe so even the argument about being at a major disadvantage kind of goes out the window. I do believe that it's a level playing field and I do believe that the scores will stabilise over the next 6 - 12 months regarding expert editing challenges.

I personally wouldn't enter minimal as I don't shoot jpeg but I'd probably enter basic. I certainly wouldn't get upset if there was an extra minimal challenge every week though or if it was rotated with expert personally I'd run one expert and have it run for 2 weeks and also run one minimal and let that run for 2 weeks too it would bring out better images on both and also doesn't put that much strain on those that want to enter as many challenges as possible.

I do get a bit tired of people threatening to leave the site all the time though of you really feel that strongly then surely it's just a case of moving on rather than constant moaning about how unfair it all is. That's not aimed at anyone in particular and not just about this thread most of the recent threads have someone whinging about leaving. It's an ongoing trend over the years though :(

Sorry about any typos I'm on my phone.

Giles

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

05/22/2012 08:16:46 AM · #44

My last entry was straight from camera in an expert did ok but not great

pamb

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

05/22/2012 08:19:59 AM · #45

@ Mark - I'm seriously impressed - you did all that on your PHONE? :)

Olympus OM-D E-M1 Mark II

05/22/2012 08:23:41 AM · #46

Originally posted by pamb:

@ Mark - I'm seriously impressed - you did all that on your PHONE? :)

i could do all that on my phone, but not my tablet...

Venser

Olympus 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO M.Zuiko

05/22/2012 09:48:09 AM · #47

Originally posted by Mark-A:

If you don't like a style then vote accordingly if u don't like a challenge topic then don't enter but not entering a challenge because it's in expert rather than advanced is a little unnecessary - I could have pulled my red ribbon pic off with advanced and it would have looked very similar I believe so even the argument about being at a major disadvantage kind of goes out the window. I do believe that it's a level playing field and I do believe that the scores will stabilise over the next 6 - 12 months regarding expert editing challenges.

I do vote accordingly, but then there's always a thread "How could anyone vote image XYZ below 5?" I didn't like it, that's how.

Originally posted by Mark-A:

I personally wouldn't enter minimal as I don't shoot jpeg but I'd probably enter basic. I certainly wouldn't get upset if there was an extra minimal challenge every week though or if it was rotated with expert personally I'd run one expert and have it run for 2 weeks and also run one minimal and let that run for 2 weeks too it would bring out better images on both and also doesn't put that much strain on those that want to enter as many challenges as possible.

Since I've joined, there's been six expert and one minimal challenge. It's this chasm which I don't like. If both extremes were represented closer to parity, I'm sure fewer people would complain.

Originally posted by Mark-A:

I do get a bit tired of people threatening to leave the site all the time though of you really feel that strongly then surely it's just a case of moving on rather than constant moaning about how unfair it all is. That's not aimed at anyone in particular and not just about this thread most of the recent threads have someone whinging about leaving. It's an ongoing trend over the years though :(

Fair enough. Problem is you pay for the year and can't get a rebated refund, so I might as well voice my opinion.
After entering 27 straight when I first joined, I've only entered 2 in the three weeks and have no interest in the challenges anymore for a variety of reasons, but some of the main points are being discussed in a couple of the more recent threads.

CS