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05/16/2012 11:52:03 AM · #1 |
Posting to another (emotionally encumbered) thread earlier, I found myself pondering the distinction between "opinion" and "judgement"; we have a lot of both on DPC, of course, but it seems to me that most of the negative emotion in these forums springs from people being judgemental but thinking they are just expressing an opinion.
How can we tell the difference? Is it simply the case that when we VOTE based on our opinions, the vote becomes a judgement? So there's no escaping it? Is that even relevant to the issue of forum discussions?
Anyway, I went googling, and found the following:
Originally posted by unknown poster:
my opinion on this
opinions are given humbly with humility and from the heart
my opinion, the world may be on a perfect path
judgements are given with the ego's sense of superiority
my judgement, the world needs to change paths, to the path I say is better
there is more to it, yes, but that is where I start to discern the two.
just thoughts
seeker |
What do YOU think?
R.
Message edited by author 2012-05-16 11:52:21.
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05/16/2012 11:54:50 AM · #2 |
| i think people just need to lighten up. |
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05/16/2012 12:29:47 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i think people just need to lighten up. |
Is that an opinion or a judgement? :-)
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05/16/2012 12:33:32 PM · #4 |
Makes sense. An opinion is "I think this about it". A judgement is "It is"
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05/16/2012 12:38:49 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Makes sense. An opinion is "I think this about it". A judgement is "It is" |
+1 And some people misconstrue opinions as judgements. Is it really going to get to the stage where everytime you post in a thread, you have to preface it with a disclaimer?
ETA: Oh of course that's just imho...:-)
Message edited by author 2012-05-16 13:22:34. |
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05/16/2012 12:56:53 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Is that even relevant to the issue of forum discussions?
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What do YOU think?
Yes Robert, i believe it is relevant to the issue of everything, it all goes through the filter of our illusory opinions and judgments, what i like now and how i feel about things, is different to what i liked as a boy and will be different to what i'll like in 20 years time, who is right, the boy, me now, or the elderly (handsome) gent, or none of us. If we know with certainty that our solid opinions are just castles made of sand, we can bounce around life with joy and passion. How i vote now will be different from how i vote next year, there is no real and correct way because there is no real and solid me.
Message edited by author 2012-05-16 12:57:15. |
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05/16/2012 01:19:06 PM · #7 |
It has also to do with your respect for others. It's always better to (at least try to) say "I respect your opinion but I don't agree with you" than "You're just wrong".
Just my opinion... :)
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05/16/2012 01:25:42 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by lreynelsg:
It has also to do with your respect for others. It's always better to (at least try to) say "I respect your opinion but I don't agree with you" than "You're just wrong".
Just my opinion... :) |
You're wrong.
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05/16/2012 01:26:33 PM · #9 |
Forgot the qualifier:
:-}
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05/16/2012 01:32:10 PM · #10 |
My judgement is...everyone is wrong except for me!!!!
My opinion is....my last statement is crap!!!!!
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05/16/2012 01:33:57 PM · #11 |
oh by the way Robert you are absolutely right about the opinion vs judgement
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05/16/2012 01:35:00 PM · #12 |
Opinions can be changed, but to pronounce judgement leaves no room for anything other than *this*.
Until voting closes we have opinions, the score can be changed by our mood, a comment, even hindsight when you see something you missed before. Once voting closes we have judged and cannot make any changes to the score we have given. Our opinion of the image can still be altered by any factor, but the score is our judgement and is forever set. |
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05/16/2012 01:36:48 PM · #13 |
Perhaps one of the problems with modern social media is that the niceties and courtesy,
of say, an in person club, in our instance, a camera club, are all but lost.
I believe it is a very good point to say that the tension is ramped up because
of constant "critique" mode in the context of a challenge.
we need the open exchange of basic disagreements-
that is the constructive criticism that leads to growth.
but if constructive criticism is viewed as a judgment instead of an opinion,
then discussion turns to argument
and friendly competition turns to aggression.
My father always reminded me, that the old saying
"Two heads are better than one"
has a second part...
"only if they reach the same conclusion."
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05/16/2012 01:47:56 PM · #14 |
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05/16/2012 02:07:47 PM · #15 |
i have tried to preface my comments and thoughts with "i think" when giving them. in person you can infer a persons context by there voice inflection, that's hard to do when reading text.
one of the mains reasons i think we need a sarcasm font.
i digress, i still think people need to lighten up. this site inst filled with trolls that spew hateful comments. some may be harsh, but its a learning site, if you want blind praise comments like "wow", "you are so awesome" "OMG this is amazing" etc, there are others sites for that. Accept the comments as as the critiques that they are. |
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05/16/2012 03:01:48 PM · #16 |
It really doesn't matter how the comment/critique/post was intended -- it's how the recipient takes it.
If I left an extremely judgmental, harsh post, but everyone took it as an opinion, it makes no difference what my intent was. No harm no foul.
If I left an insightful, useful comment/critique/post, and it was taken as a negative judgement, therein lies the problem.
The problem lies within ourselves and how we react to the world.
If we see the world as judgmental, it's a difficult place to live. If we see it as opinionated, it's annoying, but much easier to deal with. |
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05/16/2012 03:17:50 PM · #17 |
The posts have discussed the issuer's point of view, as if it is the end of the line for the comment. This part is very important, as it is the period where you are in control of the comment.
But then, the dreaded interpretation devil takes over, and transfers the comment to the reader/image owner, and low and behold, any outcome is possible. A smear is seen as a complement, opinions become accusations and factual judgements inconsequential drivel.
So what to do?
Ignore the receiver?
Comment for the average DPC'er?
After perusing my own comments, I've come to realise that I mostly comment on how the image makes me feel. That probably lessens the possibility of it being interpreted as judgement. |
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05/16/2012 03:25:31 PM · #18 |
Agreed. It doesn't matter what you give, only what they receive. Keep this in mind when giving "opinions". ;)
BONUS OPINION: if I hadn't added the winky face at the end of my post, it may have come across as "know it all"
X2 BONUS: In explaining the intent of the emoticon in the BONUS OPINION, I may come across as condescending.
...I knew I should have thrown a "lol" in there somewhere. |
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05/16/2012 03:46:41 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
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I've got a new tutorial we need to post. It's for experienced ribbon winners and how to cope with winning a colored gif icon...
Step one: It's not a Pulitzer.
Step two: It doesn't grant you super powers.
Step three: None of the challenge themes you won were called "best photograph" so stop thinking they were.
Step four: If confused refer back to step one.
Message edited by author 2012-05-16 15:47:39.
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05/16/2012 04:23:01 PM · #20 |
Funny thing is, I wasn't even THINKING of comments when I started this.
I was thinking of how awry things go in the forums sometimes, and how some people seem to be mellow and take everything in stride while others take everything personally and seem to always be on the defensive. I was ruminating on how easy it is to move from the state "opinionated" to the state "judgmental", and how hard it is to find your way back to middle ground from that position, so a lot of people end up sort of entrenched, and seem to be reduced to spending the bulk of their forum time beating off attacks that, as often as not, are only illusory.
Of course, that's just my opinion :-)
R.
Message edited by author 2012-05-16 16:23:33.
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05/16/2012 04:31:30 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Funny thing is, I wasn't even THINKING of comments when I started this.
I was thinking of how awry things go in the forums sometimes ...
R. |
The photo comments threads are structured exactly like the forum threads ... |
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05/16/2012 07:10:16 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
It really doesn't matter how the comment/critique/post was intended -- it's how the recipient takes it.
If I left an extremely judgmental, harsh post, but everyone took it as an opinion, it makes no difference what my intent was. No harm no foul.
If I left an insightful, useful comment/critique/post, and it was taken as a negative judgement, therein lies the problem.
The problem lies within ourselves and how we react to the world.
If we see the world as judgmental, it's a difficult place to live. If we see it as opinionated, it's annoying, but much easier to deal with. |
Nail on the head.
Here's the thing- we're here to critique photos which specifically entails making judgments on the photos. There should be no illusions regarding this.
You can either accept that basic premise, and understand that there is no offense intended, or you can presume that they are actually attacks on you specifically.
We attach our own self to our work, and therein lies much, but not all, of the problem. This isn't peculiar to photography or art, but is present within most of the world and leads to things such as the intense ire that spreads when one belief system's logic is criticized by another. The statement is in regard to the idea, the work, but the individual internalizes that struggle and takes offense.
In the case of our photographs, we are assuming our identity depends upon and in fact is embodied by our works, which is a pretty shallow way of thinking of yourself. More discussion of this idea can be found here. |
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05/16/2012 07:48:07 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by vawendy:
It really doesn't matter how the comment/critique/post was intended -- it's how the recipient takes it.
If I left an extremely judgmental, harsh post, but everyone took it as an opinion, it makes no difference what my intent was. No harm no foul.
If I left an insightful, useful comment/critique/post, and it was taken as a negative judgement, therein lies the problem.
The problem lies within ourselves and how we react to the world.
If we see the world as judgmental, it's a difficult place to live. If we see it as opinionated, it's annoying, but much easier to deal with. |
Nail on the head.
Here's the thing- we're here to critique photos which specifically entails making judgments on the photos. There should be no illusions regarding this.
You can either accept that basic premise, and understand that there is no offense intended, or you can presume that they are actually attacks on you specifically.
We attach our own self to our work, and therein lies much, but not all, of the problem. This isn't peculiar to photography or art, but is present within most of the world and leads to things such as the intense ire that spreads when one belief system's logic is criticized by another. The statement is in regard to the idea, the work, but the individual internalizes that struggle and takes offense.
In the case of our photographs, we are assuming our identity depends upon and in fact is embodied by our works, which is a pretty shallow way of thinking of yourself. More discussion of this idea can be found here. |
in other words:
people just need to lighten up. |
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05/16/2012 08:18:32 PM · #24 |
Part of growth and development as an artist is being able to graciously accept constructive criticism of all kinds, yet remain unruffled. It's easier said, than done. Certainly, I have gone through the "double-edged sword" gauntlet of railing at criticism. It's a learning curve. I don't know how one gets past it, without going through it.
Those who have known me for years, (through DPC), know my relationships were sometimes "prickly" ( Bear_Music's word). I apologize for my earlier arrogance and hope everyone will forgive me for my earlier haughtiness. I'm a better human being these days after passing through the "baptism of fire" which is DPC.
So, now I see other talented photographers experiencing the same gauntlet trauma. I pray that God give them the strength to come out the other side with as much self-actualization as I experiened. Thank you, DPC! |
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05/16/2012 09:32:57 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
Part of growth and development as an artist is being able to graciously accept constructive criticism of all kinds, yet remain unruffled. It's easier said, than done. Certainly, I have gone through the "double-edged sword" gauntlet of railing at criticism. It's a learning curve. I don't know how one gets past it, without going through it.
Those who have known me for years, (through DPC), know my relationships were sometimes "prickly" ( Bear_Music's word). I apologize for my earlier arrogance and hope everyone will forgive me for my earlier haughtiness. I'm a better human being these days after passing through the "baptism of fire" which is DPC.
So, now I see other talented photographers experiencing the same gauntlet trauma. I pray that God give them the strength to come out the other side with as much self-actualization as I experiened. Thank you, DPC! |
What an incredibly humble and self-reflective post.
Massive kudos to you, Richard.
Message edited by author 2012-05-16 21:33:16. |
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