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05/12/2012 11:23:11 AM · #126 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i think the consensus to make to thumbnail view visible only after voting 100%. |
Not for me. A lot of times I don't vote 100% simply because I know a least a couple of the images from seeing them elsewhere or because i helped/gave an opinion to the person in some way. I never comment when I vote. I do that afterwards from the thumbs. So basically, you'd be taking away my ability to comment. |
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05/12/2012 11:23:24 AM · #127 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i think the consensus to make to thumbnail view visible only after voting 100%. |
The heck it is. This is a very small sample of DPCers in this thread, and there's not even any consensus in here, just maybe a slight majority favoring "no thumbs", but as far as I'm concerned, for fallacious reasons. Personally, I'd be seriously discombobulated if they took my thumbs away :-)
R.
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05/12/2012 11:38:53 AM · #128 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Yep, saw that. However, for those thinking that "cherry picking" is the majority of the problem I think they're wrong. It's my opinion that voters skipping a photo because they either don't want to lower their average vote cast, or just don't want to use the lower end of the scale, are skewing results more than anyone "cherry picking". |
I don't know the real reason, but I would hazard it's a combo of what you postulate, which is they don't want to give a low vote, and my hypothesis, which is there's selective cherry picking going on. The fact there wasn't a single challenge where the number of average of votes was greater in the bottom 10 in 100 challenges is pretty telling.
Change gears here.
I think we should stop giving advice before challenges commence. This is a challenge after all. Wouldn't you want to know how your choices and edits stand up against the field. Figure out where you stand on your own merit. Waiting until after the challenge until you ask for advice doesn't change anything in terms of the advice given, and if anything, could probably be more beneficial. At least you would have succeeded or failed based on what you did, and not what other people suggested. I know I'm living in my own little utopia to think this will ever happen, but here's to dreaming.
CS |
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05/12/2012 11:46:18 AM · #129 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i think the consensus to make to thumbnail view visible only after voting 100%. |
No consensus here either...i want my thumbs |
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05/12/2012 11:51:18 AM · #130 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
....
I think we should stop giving advice before challenges commence. This is a challenge after all. Wouldn't you want to know how your choices and edits stand up against the field. Figure out where you stand on your own merit. Waiting until after the challenge until you ask for advice doesn't change anything in terms of the advice given, and if anything, could probably be more beneficial. At least you would have succeeded or failed based on what you did, and not what other people suggested. I know I'm living in my own little utopia to think this will ever happen, but here's to dreaming.
CS |
+1
In the DPL competition, collaboration on images was made legal amongst team members in exchange for not being able to vote on teammates' images. That legal collaboration was a valuable learning tool. Post DPL, collaboration on images has been permitted, with corresponding votes not specifically banned. In a perfect world (dreaming also), friends could help friends AND still cast an unbiased vote. And, certainly some who offer image advice to others do indeed skip voting on images which they helped develop. I do think it is exceptionally hard to remain unbiased when offering help to others. I'm positive it can be done.
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 11:53:23. |
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05/12/2012 12:05:47 PM · #131 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
....
I think we should stop giving advice before challenges commence. This is a challenge after all. Wouldn't you want to know how your choices and edits stand up against the field. Figure out where you stand on your own merit. Waiting until after the challenge until you ask for advice doesn't change anything in terms of the advice given, and if anything, could probably be more beneficial. At least you would have succeeded or failed based on what you did, and not what other people suggested. I know I'm living in my own little utopia to think this will ever happen, but here's to dreaming.
CS |
I strongly disagree with this. What an incredible learning opportunity lost simply because people believe that someone might vote on a photo.
I currently exchange opinions with three different small groups. I don't know a single person who offers advice and then votes on that photo. Every one of us have agreed to never vote on a submission that they've seen in advance.
As far as people voting on what you did vs what someone else suggested, what's the difference between asking someone on here how to do a luminosity curve vs. looking up a tutorial on photoshop or taking a class? Should we ban all forms of learning, since we want to ban learning from each other? People seem to think that people can't think for themselves when asking for advice. I have learned a lot from many different people on here, through DPL, WPL, and small groups that help each other. My style is my own. I've learned things that I never knew existed. But I'm not following anyone's style. I pull together the information that I've learned on here, through books, through tutorials, etc, and have created my own way of doing things.
It's such a shame that people have a hard time with this. I think it's the best part of the site. I even started the Help Which one feedback thread, and I'm always willing to give feedback to anyone who asks.
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 12:07:24. |
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05/12/2012 12:19:39 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
....
I think we should stop giving advice before challenges commence. This is a challenge after all. Wouldn't you want to know how your choices and edits stand up against the field. Figure out where you stand on your own merit. Waiting until after the challenge until you ask for advice doesn't change anything in terms of the advice given, and if anything, could probably be more beneficial. At least you would have succeeded or failed based on what you did, and not what other people suggested. I know I'm living in my own little utopia to think this will ever happen, but here's to dreaming.
CS |
I strongly disagree with this. What an incredible learning opportunity lost simply because people believe that someone might vote on a photo.
I currently exchange opinions with three different small groups. I don't know a single person who offers advice and then votes on that photo. Every one of us have agreed to never vote on a submission that they've seen in advance.
As far as people voting on what you did vs what someone else suggested, what's the difference between asking someone on here how to do a luminosity curve vs. looking up a tutorial on photoshop or taking a class? Should we ban all forms of learning, since we want to ban learning from each other? People seem to think that people can't think for themselves when asking for advice. I have learned a lot from many different people on here, through DPL, WPL, and small groups that help each other. My style is my own. I've learned things that I never knew existed. But I'm not following anyone's style. I pull together the information that I've learned on here, through books, through tutorials, etc, and have created my own way of doing things.
It's such a shame that people have a hard time with this. I think it's the best part of the site. I even started the Help Which one feedback thread, and I'm always willing to give feedback to anyone who asks. |
How does waiting seven days affect any part of that learning experience? That's the part I'm not getting. Ask after the fact and you'll be just as enlightened. Should I have edited it like this or that? This image or the other? Whatever. At least then, you would have figured out if your initial thought process worked or didn't. Get advice and change things up for the next challenge.
If someone can explain how a delay of a week will alter this learning experience, I'm willing to listen.
CS
[ edit ] Also, you're being somewhat fallacious. I specifically mentioned looking over images with other people, not asking about how to do specific edits. Obviously they're two different things and I would never stop anyone wanting to learn how to do a specific edit. It's the collaboration on an image prior to challenges where the problem lies.
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 12:50:04. |
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05/12/2012 01:02:01 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
....
I think we should stop giving advice before challenges commence. This is a challenge after all. Wouldn't you want to know how your choices and edits stand up against the field. Figure out where you stand on your own merit. Waiting until after the challenge until you ask for advice doesn't change anything in terms of the advice given, and if anything, could probably be more beneficial. At least you would have succeeded or failed based on what you did, and not what other people suggested. I know I'm living in my own little utopia to think this will ever happen, but here's to dreaming.
CS |
I strongly disagree with this. What an incredible learning opportunity lost simply because people believe that someone might vote on a photo.
I currently exchange opinions with three different small groups. I don't know a single person who offers advice and then votes on that photo. Every one of us have agreed to never vote on a submission that they've seen in advance.
As far as people voting on what you did vs what someone else suggested, what's the difference between asking someone on here how to do a luminosity curve vs. looking up a tutorial on photoshop or taking a class? Should we ban all forms of learning, since we want to ban learning from each other? People seem to think that people can't think for themselves when asking for advice. I have learned a lot from many different people on here, through DPL, WPL, and small groups that help each other. My style is my own. I've learned things that I never knew existed. But I'm not following anyone's style. I pull together the information that I've learned on here, through books, through tutorials, etc, and have created my own way of doing things.
It's such a shame that people have a hard time with this. I think it's the best part of the site. I even started the Help Which one feedback thread, and I'm always willing to give feedback to anyone who asks. |
How does waiting seven days affect any part of that learning experience? That's the part I'm not getting. Ask after the fact and you'll be just as enlightened. Should I have edited it like this or that? This image or the other? Whatever. At least then, you would have figured out if your initial thought process worked or didn't. Get advice and change things up for the next challenge.
If someone can explain how a delay of a week will alter this learning experience, I'm willing to listen.
CS
[ edit ] Also, you're being somewhat fallacious. I specifically mentioned looking over images with other people, not asking about how to do specific edits. Obviously they're two different things and I would never stop anyone wanting to learn how to do a specific edit. It's the collaboration on an image prior to challenges where the problem lies. |
My humblest apologies -- I simplified something. It's been awhile since I asked for editing help, so I was remembering an example and simplifying it. Last DPL I knew that something was wrong with the photo. It seemed very flat, I played with levels and curves and not getting the effect I wanted. I asked how I could get more pop. Someone recommended luminosity curves, which I had never heard of. So I looked it up and used it, and have used it frequently since.
I rarely get processing feedback anymore (though I absolutely love it when I do) -- but I give it frequently. Everyone has the same access. Everyone is able to ask for advice -- there are many, many people on here who are willing to give it. When everyone has the same opportunities, I have no problem with people taking advantage of those opportunities. If you choose not to -- that's your prerogative.
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 13:04:01. |
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05/12/2012 01:24:14 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by vawendy:
Everyone is able to ask for advice -- there are many, many people on here who are willing to give it. When everyone has the same opportunities, I have no problem with people taking advantage of those opportunities. If you choose not to -- that's your prerogative. |
On everything you wrote, fair enough, even though I still don't agree with getting help prior. Aside from saying everyone can do it, there's no compelling evidence given against waiting until the challenge is over.
Sure we can all ask, but there are members, they explicitly wrote in this very thread, that will not vote on an image they helped with. I showed this creates a problem mathematically. So we come to the fork in the road. We can alleviate the problem by one of several methods to bring us back in line.
1 - You help on an image and you shouldn't vote on any image in that challenge.
2 - You vote objectively and fairly on all images, even the ones which you gave advice to.
3 - We don't allow this kind of collaboration/advice giving prior to challenges.
Either one of them will satisfy the skewing of the stats. I'm not saying you do or don't follow these, but there are members who go against at least some of them and therein lies the problem.
CS
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 13:25:59. |
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05/12/2012 01:32:25 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
If someone can explain how a delay of a week will alter this learning experience, I'm willing to listen.
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because after the challenge they have the next image to work on and get in, who has time to go back and edit an image after the fact, where as you can gather opinions and tips before hand when you are motivated and on with that image, not 7 days down the line when you are preparing your next image for submission |
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05/12/2012 01:35:19 PM · #136 |
I guess I'm not agreeing with the premise that there are members who go against any of the three things that you are listing. It's been my experience that people don't realize that they can ask for advice until they've been here for awhile. And anyone that I have run across that offers advice does so with the caveat that they won't vote on the photo.
Though I obviously haven't dealt with everyone, I've dealt with many people, and I haven't come across a single one that isn't following #1 or #2. Buddy voting seems to happen when people first join and are trying to skew the votes -- not trying to learn.
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 13:37:43. |
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05/12/2012 01:35:35 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by vawendy:
Everyone is able to ask for advice -- there are many, many people on here who are willing to give it. When everyone has the same opportunities, I have no problem with people taking advantage of those opportunities. If you choose not to -- that's your prerogative. |
On everything you wrote, fair enough, even though I still don't agree with getting help prior. Aside from saying everyone can do it, there's no compelling evidence given against waiting until the challenge is over.
Sure we can all ask, but there are members, they explicitly wrote in this very thread, that will not vote on an image they helped with. I showed this creates a problem mathematically. So we come to the fork in the road. We can alleviate the problem by one of several methods to bring us back in line.
1 - You help on an image and you shouldn't vote on any image in that challenge.
2 - You vote objectively and fairly on all images, even the ones which you gave advice to.
3 - We don't allow this kind of collaboration/advice giving prior to challenges.
Either one of them will satisfy the skewing of the stats. I'm not saying you do or don't follow these, but there are members who go against at least some of them and therein lies the problem.
CS |
I really can't see how not voting on 1 or 2 images out of a whole challenge would skew votes in any way considering there are plenty of people only doing the 20% required. That just doesn't make sense. If anything, in my case, they are giving up a high vote by asking for my advice since I tend to vote on the high end of the spectrum. I hand out 10's like candy. And the same in reverse, for those that give me an opinion (and it is just normally "which do you like better?"), I give up their vote. The reason we do this is so we don't get accused of friend voting. |
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05/12/2012 02:15:28 PM · #138 |
I don't understand this issue of "help", not at all. WHY is this a problem? There are SO many non-DPC ways to get help. Shall all of them be banned? Should Student Joe not talk to his college photography instructor about how to process a certain image? Should Grandpa Frank not ask his photographically-adept grandson Conner how to improve a potential entry? Should we make a rule forbidding internet how-to-process searches?
That's obviously ridiculous, right?
But what's being suggested is that DPCers cannot be trusted to recuse themselves from known-friend voting. Alright. I've seen no hard evidence that this is true, but let's assume for the sake of argument that there IS a significant-enough group to matter that goes around advising each other then voting each others' images high, or whatever it is that's being suggested. Let's ASSUME that's true:
Then I submit the following: these people are ALREADY not behaving properly, not following the rules. What makes you think that a prohibition on pre-challenge assistance from fellow-DPCers will STOP that practice? It's an obviously unenforceable rule, and these people are not gonna care. Meanwhile, the REST of us, those of us who willingly share large amounts of our time helping fellow-DPCers pick up processing and other tips on a per-challenge basis, those of us who NEVER vote on shared images, those of us who actually FOLLOW the rules (and therefore are not part of the problem), will be muzzled, and I ask: to whose benefit?
One more thing: Richard said the following:
Originally posted by hahn23:
In the DPL competition, collaboration on images was made legal amongst team members in exchange for not being able to vote on teammates' images. That legal collaboration was a valuable learning tool. Post DPL, collaboration on images has been permitted, with corresponding votes not specifically banned. |
I don't think that's quite correct. This sort of collaboration has been going on for a long time, and thank heavens for that IMO. The only thing that changed with DPL was that official teams got dedicated team threads in which to discuss their images etc, and that the software was able to restrict voting to entries that were the work of neither your teammates nor that week's opponents. Now we're back on the honor system, but we had that in place long before there was a DPL. The prior discussing of images between friends, as far as I know, has never been illegal in DPC, presumably because the powers-that-be realize, quite wisely, that any such prohibition would be utterly unenforceable.
R.
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05/12/2012 02:15:34 PM · #139 |
If I would be a thief, I would steal money from your pocket... If I would be a generous man, I would put money in to your pocket. Which one would you prefer me to be?
If you're troll takes votes from my photo, yes "taking" votes from my photo thinking about your own photo in the challenge, or just angry for some reason, I would be sad and angry too... and probably do the same to others (depending on personality)... however, if you feel happy that day, and give good votes, thinking well, I feel happy, others should feel happy too... that makes me happy and maybe do the same.
Story here is some stupid people are saying both the same (in voting), no they are not. One is good, one is bad. I prefer to see trolls giving higher votes, make my life happier than thinking "oh well, I don't think my photo deserves that much"... no sir, I wouldn't.
if you give 1 to this image,
you can go and funk yourself to death (on the dance floor). That has nothing to do with you valuing the photo, but just being jerk, period.
and if you gave 10 this image,
thank you very much, you just made one person pretty damn happy (the owner of the picture), period.
that's exactly my point here since the beginning of my exciting life here in DPC |
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05/12/2012 02:26:36 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
I don't understand this issue of "help", not at all. WHY is this a problem? There are SO many non-DPC ways to get help. Shall all of them be banned? Should Student Joe not talk to his college photography instructor about how to process a certain image? Should Grandpa Frank not ask his photographically-adept grandson Conner how to improve a potential entry? Should we make a rule forbidding internet how-to-process searches?
That's obviously ridiculous, right?
But what's being suggested is that DPCers cannot be trusted to recuse themselves from known-friend voting. Alright. I've seen no hard evidence that this is true, but let's assume for the sake of argument that there IS a significant-enough group to matter that goes around advising each other then voting each others' images high, or whatever it is that's being suggested. Let's ASSUME that's true:
Then I submit the following: these people are ALREADY not behaving properly, not following the rules. What makes you think that a prohibition on pre-challenge assistance from fellow-DPCers will STOP that practice? It's an obviously unenforceable rule, and these people are not gonna care. Meanwhile, the REST of us, those of us who willingly share large amounts of our time helping fellow-DPCers pick up processing and other tips on a per-challenge basis, those of us who NEVER vote on shared images, those of us who actually FOLLOW the rules (and therefore are not part of the problem), will be muzzled, and I ask: to whose benefit?
One more thing: Richard said the following:
Originally posted by hahn23:
In the DPL competition, collaboration on images was made legal amongst team members in exchange for not being able to vote on teammates' images. That legal collaboration was a valuable learning tool. Post DPL, collaboration on images has been permitted, with corresponding votes not specifically banned. |
I don't think that's quite correct. This sort of collaboration has been going on for a long time, and thank heavens for that IMO. The only thing that changed with DPL was that official teams got dedicated team threads in which to discuss their images etc, and that the software was able to restrict voting to entries that were the work of neither your teammates nor that week's opponents. Now we're back on the honor system, but we had that in place long before there was a DPL. The prior discussing of images between friends, as far as I know, has never been illegal in DPC, presumably because the powers-that-be realize, quite wisely, that any such prohibition would be utterly unenforceable.
R. |
I think the honor system is pretty good. That's why I think members who review others' images should cast a vote on all images in a challenge, including the images whose authorship is known. That would avoid the possible subconscious anti-selection bias. |
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05/12/2012 04:03:55 PM · #141 |
Message edited by author 2012-07-24 16:34:53. |
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05/12/2012 04:16:53 PM · #142 |
Message edited by author 2012-07-24 16:35:02. |
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05/12/2012 05:08:19 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by deeby:
*types "luminosity curves" into google* |
Oops, luminosity masking, not luminosity curves. I always forget what they're called. I just use them. |
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05/12/2012 05:10:10 PM · #144 |
[ edit ]Served no real purpose.
CS
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 17:11:13. |
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