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05/10/2012 02:34:24 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I still think it's not as black & white an issue as you believe. |
No, it is. The challenge theme IS black and white. People who vote are not doing their job and considering the theme just like the photographers who submit DNMC photos are not considering the theme.
But when a theme is black and white it's black and white. No argument. |
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05/10/2012 02:37:33 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
however, if having to look twice was a good reason for giving a 1 then the blue ribbon winner would have received many more. |
I was only saying the voter might not have looked twice and not seen it as upside down. |
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05/10/2012 02:44:59 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by hahn23:
I do have a suggestion for system improvement. I'm making this comment as a constructive criticism. There is a randomizer that presents images to each voter in a random way. Voting would be more fair if voters voted on images as presented by the randomizer. |
I've been trying to restrict access to the challenge thumbnails page (i.e. disallow "cherry-picking" which images to vote on) until voting is (at least partially) completed for about ten years now ... :-( |
Thanks for trying. As I age, the phrase, "not in my lifetime", takes on new meaning. |
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05/10/2012 02:53:40 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
however, if having to look twice was a good reason for giving a 1 then the blue ribbon winner would have received many more. |
I was only saying the voter might not have looked twice and not seen it as upside down. |
Even more reason to give IQ tests to members before allowing them to vote ;) and  mrchhas yes, am sure a couple of your 1's were from dnmc type voters (they can't read rules let alone be subjective in voting) |
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05/10/2012 03:21:23 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by mrchhas:
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Well, in the case of your image, there are two things against it (just to argue the point, I think it's cool)
One you do have to double check to confirm it's upside down. On first glance the ripples could belong to the reflection too.
Second, some people do penalize for content and originality. Water drops are overdone here (or paint drops, etc...). Same with Woody. I've entered woody shots and been hammered for it. Others do it and get ribbons. |
Thanks for the reply, however, if having to look twice was a good reason for giving a 1 then the blue ribbon winner would have received many more. And, as for water drops being overdone I honestly feel that it's a myth put about that those that don't particularly like them (or can't do them). It's a little like saying a landscape shot is cliche so vote it a 1, or a portrait, vote it a 1.
As I said before, I really don't care, was trying to make a point and even if I really don't like an image it has to pretty bad on several levels to warrant a 1.
yes, we can all give out own subjective vote and I think I'll be giving all portrait, pet, flower, landscape, B&W, SP type shots (to name a few) a 1 in future :) |
To echo your sentiment I'll bring out my own photo as an example. One of my highest rated photos
got 4 1's and 3 2's. Does this irk me? Yes. Do I have a lot more satisfaction from the numerous positive and constructive comments? Absolutely. But still... Dang 4 1's. And I find it hard to believe that it's DNMC. Either people think I cheated or I got trolled. |
im sure it has to do with the content, revealing images always have their detractors. |
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05/10/2012 06:04:53 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by mike_311:
sure there is, just make everyone's votes visible when voting is complete :) |
That would work, but I don't think it's going to happen. Too much opportunity to create grudges. |
Seriously...and exactly what would be gained by that.
I have no problems with people viewing my voting habits, but best they be prepared should any one of them send me a snarky email. I need no input from anyone to justify my vote... it is reflective of how I feel about an image.......period.
Why is it we never hear anyone bitching about the 10 scores that are totally unjustified.
Get over yourselves... in most instances people get what they deserve. :O)
Ray
Message edited by author 2012-05-11 05:25:12. |
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05/10/2012 06:54:45 PM · #107 |
sub·jec·tive
[suhb-jek-tiv]
adjective
1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought
I hate Rothko. I do. Hate him. But you give me a Van Gogh and I will weep openly. Give me a Lichtenstein, I fall asleep - but give me a Pollock and i giggle. This is how I see the world - and my votes reflect how I see your photo. They are always fair, because they are always honest. From my perspective.
As my perspective changes over time, so will my votes. But they'll still be honest. |
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05/10/2012 07:02:21 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by knikki:
sub·jec·tive
[suhb-jek-tiv]
adjective
1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought
I hate Rothko. I do. Hate him. But you give me a Van Gogh and I will weep openly. Give me a Lichtenstein, I fall asleep - but give me a Pollock and i giggle. This is how I see the world - and my votes reflect how I see your photo. They are always fair, because they are always honest. From my perspective.
As my perspective changes over time, so will my votes. But they'll still be honest. |
Exactly.
This is why I hate seeing either in the forums or in the comment section of a photo the statement I mentioned earlier; "How can anyone possibly vote photo XYZ with a vote of X." You summed it up quite nicely.
CS |
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05/10/2012 07:37:59 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Exactly.
This is why I hate seeing either in the forums or in the comment section of a photo the statement I mentioned earlier; "How can anyone possibly vote photo XYZ with a vote of X." You summed it up quite nicely.
CS |
Yup, whilst I chipped in with a top 10 image with 3 1's I wasn't griping but trying to show that (some) people vote a 1 not just for a rubbish image but also for one that they may not like it for no other reason than they have seen similar before (yes, my generalisation). I save a one for truly dire images and a 10 for truly stunning images.
As for the thread title I think we have very few 'trolls' here, more like several quirky voters and the term troll has been given to people voting sub 5 lots of the time. |
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05/10/2012 08:13:42 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
Yup, whilst I chipped in with a top 10 image with 3 1's I wasn't griping but trying to show that (some) people vote a 1 not just for a rubbish image but also for one that they may not like it for no other reason than they have seen similar before (yes, my generalisation). I save a one for truly dire images and a 10 for truly stunning images.
As for the thread title I think we have very few 'trolls' here, more like several quirky voters and the term troll has been given to people voting sub 5 lots of the time. |
I wouldn't even call it quirky, but just different from what they (the people complaining) perceive to be the correct voting style. The word troll does get thrown around a lot without any basis or proof but merely because the person who got a low vote doesn't think they merited that vote without any knowledge of why or how the person who voted it as such did.
See, you save one for the truly dire, I don't. Both methodologies work and we shouldn't be trying to sway how one person votes over another. It simply drives me nuts when people question others voting habits or methodologies than bitch when they don't adhere to their own. That's why I always fight for the low voters in every thread when someone eventually complains. Unless they can show me mathematically there is something wrong, they can't, I will continuously be that person who brings them back to reality.
The only thing with the actual voting system which is flawed is that everyone doesn't have to vote on every image. I showed earlier in the thread how the disparity in voter tallies can alter rankings; that effect is real and tangible.
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 22:52:29. |
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05/10/2012 08:36:54 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
snip...
The only thing with the actual voting system which is flawed is that everyone doesn't have to vote on every image. I showed earlier in the thread how the disparity in voter tallies can alter rankings; that effect is real and tangible. |
I almost totally agree with this however, whilst I have done on occasion I rarely vote on an image I have prior knowledge of and there have been images I refuse to vote on (for whatever reason) and of course your own image forms part of your percentage voted (I think).
Voting on just 20% of the submissions probably skews voting more than any other 'issue' though that is imho and can't back it up with stats. It was said earlier about just showing random images and no thumbs to pick and choose from until voting is complete but then I guess we'd get the wingers not seeing 2,3 or more views per vote lol.
So, you can please all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but don't even bother trying to please a dpc'er.
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05/10/2012 08:55:57 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by mike_311:
sure there is, just make everyone's votes visible when voting is complete :) |
That would work, but I don't think it's going to happen. Too much opportunity to create grudges. |
Seriously...and exactly what would be gained by that.
I have no problems with people viewing my voting habits, but best they be prepared should any one of them send me a snarky email. I need no input from anyone to justify my vote... it is reflective of how I feel about an image.......period.
Why is it we never hear anyone bitching about the 10 scores that are totally unjustified.
Get over yourselves... in most instances people get what they deserve.
Ray |
Boy we really need a sarcasm font. BAD. I even out a Smiley on the end. |
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05/10/2012 10:41:23 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
(partial quote here folks...)
Why is it we never hear anyone bitching about the 10 scores that are totally unjustified.
Get over yourselves... in most instances people get what they deserve.
Ray |
Originally posted by pamb:
I do have a problem with:
* people who, as the end of the voting period approaches, make large downward OR upward adjustments to their preexisting vote |
Originally posted by pamb:
* I do not mean (nor did I say) ONLY downwards - I believe I included upwards as well - scores changing with no new votes. |
Originally posted by pamb:
I'd like to reiterate: I'm not just talking about why *my* photos score low, but also why *my* photos get (imo) unrealistic high votes! |
Ray, I have an intense respect for you. The way you conduct yourself in these forums is honest and forthright. It has been said before (I think by Bear, but I can't quite remember) that not only do you have an opinion, but you value other's opinions and never try to convert anyone to your way of thinking as if it's the only way.
....but quite clearly, I AM bitching about the 10 scores (on my stuff) that are totally unjustified.
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05/10/2012 10:43:38 PM · #114 |
Hey! I just got back to find several more pages of arguments. You guys weren't supposed to continue the debate without me!!! -Grumble-
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05/10/2012 10:49:47 PM · #115 |
| That'll teach ya for having a life outside of DPC! ;) |
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05/11/2012 05:27:13 AM · #116 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by mike_311:
sure there is, just make everyone's votes visible when voting is complete :) |
That would work, but I don't think it's going to happen. Too much opportunity to create grudges. |
Seriously...and exactly what would be gained by that.
I have no problems with people viewing my voting habits, but best they be prepared should any one of them send me a snarky email. I need no input from anyone to justify my vote... it is reflective of how I feel about an image.......period.
Why is it we never hear anyone bitching about the 10 scores that are totally unjustified.
Get over yourselves... in most instances people get what they deserve.
Ray |
Boy we really need a sarcasm font. BAD. I even out a Smiley on the end. |
There... added a smiley face for ya... any better?
Ray |
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05/11/2012 05:43:19 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by pamb:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
(partial quote here folks...)
Why is it we never hear anyone bitching about the 10 scores that are totally unjustified.
Get over yourselves... in most instances people get what they deserve.
Ray |
Originally posted by pamb:
I do have a problem with:
* people who, as the end of the voting period approaches, make large downward OR upward adjustments to their preexisting vote |
Originally posted by pamb:
* I do not mean (nor did I say) ONLY downwards - I believe I included upwards as well - scores changing with no new votes. |
Originally posted by pamb:
I'd like to reiterate: I'm not just talking about why *my* photos score low, but also why *my* photos get (imo) unrealistic high votes! |
Ray, I have an intense respect for you. The way you conduct yourself in these forums is honest and forthright. It has been said before (I think by Bear, but I can't quite remember) that not only do you have an opinion, but you value other's opinions and never try to convert anyone to your way of thinking as if it's the only way.
....but quite clearly, I AM bitching about the 10 scores (on my stuff) that are totally unjustified. |
...and with that, Ray leaves the forum with his head down, fully realizing that he failed to read ALL of the comments.
In all sincerity  pamb my deepest of apologies for making such a sweeping generalization.
Ray |
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05/11/2012 07:26:51 AM · #118 |
You are a true gentleman and have once again proven it. Marry me. ;)
If possible, my respect for you just increased! |
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05/12/2012 07:22:31 AM · #119 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by yanko:
If I don't like the way the thumbnail looks and I never click on it why would it matter if I had a negative perception on the image? In other words, if I'm skipping it (i.e. not voting on it) how does it affect that image? |
Your lack of a vote skews the underlying number of votes on that image. So now when the next person comes along and votes on both images, the ranking change even though they should remain the same.
Photo B you skipped, but otherwise would have given a 1 to. Thus making both a 6.0000 average with 60 votes.
A - 60 votes - 6.0000 average
B - 59 votes - 6.0847 average
Next voter comes along and gives both a 1.
A - 61 votes - 5.9180 average
B - 60 votes - 5.9167 average
Because you skipped over photo B, when the next person comes along and gives both the same vote now, the rankings change because of your omission.
After challenges I always check the min/max # of votes and it's often in the 15% range.
CS |
As I said to Paul, cherry picking is essentially random. No two people are going to cherry pick the same set of images to vote on. So what you describe applies equally to voting the "normal" way. The issue that you're raising is caused by the the 20% requirement, not cherry picking. |
Sorry, this took some time to compile.
Over the last 100 challenges, here are my findings:
1 - The top 10 images, on average, received 3.874% more votes than the bottom 10 images.
2 - The bottom 10 never had a higher average number of votes in any of those challenges.
I'm fairly astute, so this either implies dpchallenge uses the world worst random number generator to sort out images or people are cherry picking images in a not so random way to vote on. When I get more time I'll compile the stats for the history of the website, but I don't see them changing very much.
CS
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 07:22:45. |
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05/12/2012 07:26:26 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
I'm fairly astute, so this either implies dpchallenge uses the world worst random number generator to sort out images or people are cherry picking images in a not so random way to vote on.
S |
...that could very well be, but on a personal basis, when I either vote on all of them or none of them.
So far, I have managed to vote on the majority of them, but I did miss a few challenges due to things like work, travel and stuff.
Ray |
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05/12/2012 07:32:14 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
I'm fairly astute, so this either implies dpchallenge uses the world worst random number generator to sort out images or people are cherry picking images in a not so random way to vote on. When I get more time I'll compile the stats for the history of the website, but I don't see them changing very much.
CS |
i think it speaks to the way I start my voting. i pick an image that looks good and then start, I *usually* finish 100% but if i and other who vote like me, don't, there is what you are seeing.
i however wouldn't be upset to see it go and i think it would be fairer if i wasn't able to do this.
Message edited by author 2012-05-12 07:32:28. |
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05/12/2012 07:43:39 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Sorry, this took some time to compile.
Over the last 100 challenges, here are my findings:
1 - The top 10 images, on average, received 3.874% more votes than the bottom 10 images.
2 - The bottom 10 never had a higher average number of votes in any of those challenges.
I'm fairly astute, so this either implies dpchallenge uses the world worst random number generator to sort out images or people are cherry picking images in a not so random way to vote on. When I get more time I'll compile the stats for the history of the website, but I don't see them changing very much.
CS |
Actually, a very real scenario that will be very hard to account for is that there are quite a few people that will just skip voting on an image if 1) they don't like it, or 2) feel that they don't want to give a low score so just don't vote on it.
This scenario would have nothing to do with any "cherry picking" as the image is displayed full size in the random order - the voter chose to skip it. |
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05/12/2012 08:40:51 AM · #123 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Actually, a very real scenario that will be very hard to account for is that there are quite a few people that will just skip voting on an image if 1) they don't like it, or 2) feel that they don't want to give a low score so just don't vote on it.
This scenario would have nothing to do with any "cherry picking" as the image is displayed full size in the random order - the voter chose to skip it. |
Sure, except I showed earlier in this thread that skipping an image because you don't want to give it a low vote has real consequences. By not voting you are skewing the results in a tangible manner.
CS |
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05/12/2012 11:13:33 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Actually, a very real scenario that will be very hard to account for is that there are quite a few people that will just skip voting on an image if 1) they don't like it, or 2) feel that they don't want to give a low score so just don't vote on it.
This scenario would have nothing to do with any "cherry picking" as the image is displayed full size in the random order - the voter chose to skip it. |
Sure, except I showed earlier in this thread that skipping an image because you don't want to give it a low vote has real consequences. By not voting you are skewing the results in a tangible manner.
CS |
Yep, saw that. However, for those thinking that "cherry picking" is the majority of the problem I think they're wrong. It's my opinion that voters skipping a photo because they either don't want to lower their average vote cast, or just don't want to use the lower end of the scale, are skewing results more than anyone "cherry picking".
Also, I think voting from a thumbnail is a difficult process, time consuming for sure. You could enter the photo stream at some point by selecting a thumbnail, but to pick a couple of photos, go back to thumbnail view, pick some more, etc...isn't very productive.
One thing I find useful from the thumbnail view is the ability to view a photo and make a comment without voting, just by selecting the little icon next to the thumbnail image (although I need to get back on track for commenting). I hope that this feature doesn't go away. |
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05/12/2012 11:18:41 AM · #125 |
| i think the consensus to make to thumbnail view visible only after voting 100%. |
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