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05/10/2012 01:07:38 PM · #76 |
Originally posted by hahn23:
I do have a suggestion for system improvement. I'm making this comment as a constructive criticism. There is a randomizer that presents images to each voter in a random way. Voting would be more fair if voters voted on images as presented by the randomizer. |
I've been trying to restrict access to the challenge thumbnails page (i.e. disallow "cherry-picking" which images to vote on) until voting is (at least partially) completed for about ten years now ... :-( |
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05/10/2012 01:09:59 PM · #77 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I've been trying to restrict access to the challenge thumbnails page (i.e. disallow "cherry-picking" which images to vote on) until voting is (at least partially) completed for about ten years now ... :-( |
dont worry im on the case now, i seem to get results, have you noticed the drop in wine glass entries and basic editing challenges lately? |
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05/10/2012 01:12:42 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I've been trying to restrict access to the challenge thumbnails page (i.e. disallow "cherry-picking" which images to vote on) until voting is (at least partially) completed for about ten years now ... :-( |
dont worry im on the case now, i seem to get results, have you noticed the drop in wine glass entries and basic editing challenges lately? |
OUR HERO! (swoon) |
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05/10/2012 01:16:37 PM · #79 |
| all we need to do is start an "Official get rid of the challenge summary thumbnail page thread" |
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05/10/2012 01:27:14 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
There are a couple of problems.
1 -  hahn23 pointed out some voters cherry pick which images to vote on, and this is definitely an issue. james_so has the solution where you can only see the thumbnail page after you've voted on 100% of the images. I like this solution but it could lead to someone simply mashing down a button to fly through them quickly. |
This comes up often and I still haven't seen anybody explain how this affects voting in an adverse way. I can assure you that if the thumbnail page goes away I will be less than forgiving on any entry I would have skipped otherwise. Besides what you advocate doesn't resolve anything. If a voter's reason for cherry picking is to inflate the scores of the photos he or she prefers then they can still do that without a thumbnail page. This idea is just bad UCD, especially when it's based on misguided fears.
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05/10/2012 01:31:08 PM · #81 |
Originally posted by yanko:
This comes up often and I still haven't seen anybody explain how this affects voting in an adverse way. I can assure you that if the thumbnail page goes away I will be less than forgiving on any entry I would have skipped otherwise. Besides what you advocate doesn't resolve anything. If a voter's reason for cherry picking is to inflate the scores of the photos he or she prefers then they can still do that without a thumbnail page. This idea is just bad UCD, especially when it's based on misguided fears. |
by skipping entries you are introducing bias into your voting habits, if you dont like the way the thumbnail looks so you automatically have a negative perception about an image.
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05/10/2012 01:37:46 PM · #82 |
I've been around longer than most and tbh this type of thread pops up on a regular basis, if we pleased everybody all of the time dpc would be a sad place to visit and submit to.
This image has been bumped since I took the stats but did finish 10th with 3 votes of one (only one other 1 vote in the top ten). In no way to any voter is it worth a vote of one! never! whatever your criteria. Am I bothered? not at all, if somebody chooses to vote an image a 1 that meets the challenge and is of a decent quality then it's up to them and I guess they are the same people that bitch because they scored a below average on a challenge with a piss poor image.
I take more pleasure in the comments on this image from people that don't particularly like drip shots but recognise the work involved in capturing it than the narrow minded voters that think drip shot, I've seen it - low vote.
I was well pleased with a top ten result on an image that misguided people think is cliche. In fact, I might even make drip shot a challenge suggestion! would love to see how the ney'sayers manage to capture this type of shot :)
edited to enter image sorry...
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 13:50:44. |
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05/10/2012 01:39:03 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by pamb:
I do have a problem with:
* people who, as the end of the voting period approaches, make large downward OR upward adjustments to their preexisting vote (perhaps in the hope of giving an advantage to their own or their friends chances)
* vote during the last 24hrs and hammer everything
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Without seeing any statistics my guess would be that this is a natural occurance. You have a challenge ending and so you have more voters making their final assessments at the same time. I think it's incorrect to assume that voters are making wild changes to their votes. It's more likely that it's just a lot of voters changing votes down or up a peg or two. Most of my entries drop near the end but I have had some that had a significant boost. One time I had an entry go from 6.28-ish to 6.5 in under 24 hours.
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05/10/2012 01:41:12 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by yanko:
This comes up often and I still haven't seen anybody explain how this affects voting in an adverse way. I can assure you that if the thumbnail page goes away I will be less than forgiving on any entry I would have skipped otherwise. Besides what you advocate doesn't resolve anything. If a voter's reason for cherry picking is to inflate the scores of the photos he or she prefers then they can still do that without a thumbnail page. This idea is just bad UCD, especially when it's based on misguided fears. |
by skipping entries you are introducing bias into your voting habits, if you dont like the way the thumbnail looks so you automatically have a negative perception about an image. |
If I don't like the way the thumbnail looks and I never click on it why would it matter if I had a negative perception on the image? In other words, if I'm skipping it (i.e. not voting on it) how does it affect that image?
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 13:42:15.
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05/10/2012 01:49:32 PM · #85 |
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
This image has been bumped since I took the stats but did finish 10th with 3 votes of one (only one other 1 vote in the top ten). In no way to any voter is it worth a vote of one! never! whatever your criteria. Am I bothered? not at all, if somebody chooses to vote an image a 1 that meets the challenge and is of a decent quality then it's up to them and I guess they are the same people that bitch because they scored a below average on a challenge with a piss poor image. |
I have a problem with people telling me that their image isn't a [insert low vote here] under any criteria. It tells me they have don't know the definition of subjectivity.
Why is it so difficult for people to understand there are many different methodologies of voting?
CS |
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05/10/2012 01:56:24 PM · #86 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by yanko:
This comes up often and I still haven't seen anybody explain how this affects voting in an adverse way. I can assure you that if the thumbnail page goes away I will be less than forgiving on any entry I would have skipped otherwise. Besides what you advocate doesn't resolve anything. If a voter's reason for cherry picking is to inflate the scores of the photos he or she prefers then they can still do that without a thumbnail page. This idea is just bad UCD, especially when it's based on misguided fears. |
by skipping entries you are introducing bias into your voting habits, if you dont like the way the thumbnail looks so you automatically have a negative perception about an image. |
If I don't like the way the thumbnail looks and I never click on it why would it matter if I had a negative perception on the image? In other words, if I'm skipping it (i.e. not voting on it) how does it affect that image? |
i dont think one should get to pick and choose based on a thumbnail, that just doesn't seem right. |
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05/10/2012 01:56:24 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by yanko:
If I don't like the way the thumbnail looks and I never click on it why would it matter if I had a negative perception on the image? In other words, if I'm skipping it (i.e. not voting on it) how does it affect that image? |
It affects the result by giving a vote to some other image which could have gone to that one. It takes away your feedback (positive or negative) from someone who made the effort to submit a picture for consideration.
Every voter is presented with a randomized list to vote on -- if everyone just went through and voted the first 20% in order, all the entries would get about the same number of votes.
Now suppose that a large number of people just happen to choose the same subset of pictures to vote on, but still only vote on 20% of the entries -- you'd get one group of pictures with substantially more votes than the rest, based solely on those voters' evaluation of the thumbnails. Taken to the theoretical extreme, you could have 20% of the images divvying up all the votes, and the other 80% getting none ... |
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05/10/2012 01:56:33 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
But this is where we disagree. I don't think it "wasn't taken that way"
I think it was ignored because people liked the shots and "don't want to be mean". |
There's the difference. I don't think most have a problem with "being mean" if they feel the shot deserves the vote. Many don't interpret topics that strictly. Many others do.
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05/10/2012 01:56:44 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
This image has been bumped since I took the stats but did finish 10th with 3 votes of one (only one other 1 vote in the top ten). In no way to any voter is it worth a vote of one! never! whatever your criteria. Am I bothered? not at all, if somebody chooses to vote an image a 1 that meets the challenge and is of a decent quality then it's up to them and I guess they are the same people that bitch because they scored a below average on a challenge with a piss poor image. |
I have a problem with people telling me that their image isn't a [insert low vote here] under any criteria. It tells me they have don't know the definition of subjectivity.
Why is it so difficult for people to understand there are many different methodologies of voting?
CS |
Sorry, there is criteria here, the challenge was upside down, that was the criteria and I met that in anybodies definition. And, as said, I don't care (that) much about the odd 1 vote but yes, there are some numbskulls here and vote stupidly, I give very few 1 votes and it is usually for a very small image that in no way meets the challenge. At the end of the day I was happy with the score, was just trying to make a point about some voters and perceived 'cliche' shots. I've been here long enough to see very (very) few 'new' images. |
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05/10/2012 02:02:18 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by yanko:
If I don't like the way the thumbnail looks and I never click on it why would it matter if I had a negative perception on the image? In other words, if I'm skipping it (i.e. not voting on it) how does it affect that image? |
It affects the result by giving a vote to some other image which could have gone to that one. It takes away your feedback (positive or negative) from someone who made the effort to submit a picture for consideration.
Every voter is presented with a randomized list to vote on -- if everyone just went through and voted the first 20% in order, all the entries would get about the same number of votes.
Now suppose that a large number of people just happen to choose the same subset of pictures to vote on, but still only vote on 20% of the entries -- you'd get one group of pictures with substantially more votes than the rest, based solely on those voters' evaluation of the thumbnails. Taken to the theoretical extreme, you could have 20% of the images divvying up all the votes, and the other 80% getting none ... |
This is true if everyone cherry picked the same images, but of course we know this doesn't happen so cherry picking is essentially random.
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05/10/2012 02:02:56 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
But this is where we disagree. I don't think it "wasn't taken that way"
I think it was ignored because people liked the shots and "don't want to be mean". |
There's the difference. I don't think most have a problem with "being mean" if they feel the shot deserves the vote. Many don't interpret topics that strictly. Many others do. |
Again though... if it's black and white, set in stone. ONLY HAVE CURVES (or ONLY HAVE STRAIGHT LINES), it's not a matter of any interpretation, strict or otherwise. It's following the theme.
You cannot "interpret" a stop sign to be a yield. It means stop. Try explaining that to the officer when you run it.
Straight and Curves were like a STOP sign... clear and definitive theme.
Motion Blur is like a YIELD sign... use your judgement. |
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05/10/2012 02:05:39 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
This image has been bumped since I took the stats but did finish 10th with 3 votes of one (only one other 1 vote in the top ten). In no way to any voter is it worth a vote of one! never! whatever your criteria. Am I bothered? not at all, if somebody chooses to vote an image a 1 that meets the challenge and is of a decent quality then it's up to them and I guess they are the same people that bitch because they scored a below average on a challenge with a piss poor image. |
I have a problem with people telling me that their image isn't a [insert low vote here] under any criteria. It tells me they have don't know the definition of subjectivity.
Why is it so difficult for people to understand there are many different methodologies of voting?
CS |
Sorry, there is criteria here, the challenge was upside down, that was the criteria and I met that in anybodies definition. And, as said, I don't care (that) much about the odd 1 vote but yes, there are some numbskulls here and vote stupidly, I give very few 1 votes and it is usually for a very small image that in no way meets the challenge. At the end of the day I was happy with the score, was just trying to make a point about some voters and perceived 'cliche' shots. I've been here long enough to see very (very) few 'new' images. |
Well, in the case of your image, there are two things against it (just to argue the point, I think it's cool)
One you do have to double check to confirm it's upside down. On first glance the ripples could belong to the reflection too.
Second, some people do penalize for content and originality. Water drops are overdone here (or paint drops, etc...). Same with Woody. I've entered woody shots and been hammered for it. Others do it and get ribbons. |
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05/10/2012 02:08:56 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by yanko:
If I don't like the way the thumbnail looks and I never click on it why would it matter if I had a negative perception on the image? In other words, if I'm skipping it (i.e. not voting on it) how does it affect that image? |
Your lack of a vote skews the underlying number of votes on that image. So now when the next person comes along and votes on both images, the rankings change even though they should remain the same.
Photo B you skipped, but otherwise would have given a 1 to. Thus making both a 6.0000 average with 60 votes.
A - 60 votes - 6.0000 average
B - 59 votes - 6.0847 average
Next voter comes along and gives both a 1.
A - 61 votes - 5.9180 average
B - 60 votes - 5.9167 average
Because you skipped over photo B, when the next person comes along and gives both the same vote now, the rankings change because of your omission.
After challenges I always check the min/max # of votes and it's often in the 15% range.
CS
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 14:13:50. |
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05/10/2012 02:11:45 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Again though... if it's black and white, set in stone. ONLY HAVE CURVES (or ONLY HAVE STRAIGHT LINES), it's not a matter of any interpretation, strict or otherwise. It's following the theme. |
Then a number of entries should be DQ'd on that basis. But the way it works is that the DPC collective determines the fate of an entry that may not perfectly fit the stated topic.
It is a double edged sword. My wife  cowtownmom entered this pic in the "Sentinel" challenge. I think the subject fit the topic better than all the lone trees on hills did. It is a sub hunter, It's mission is to guard a fleet against submarines. It got creamed worse than I expected because it didn't convey how this was a sentinel and people did not see that in it. They just saw a plane. But it totally, 100% fit the topic.
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 14:12:54.
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05/10/2012 02:16:09 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Again though... if it's black and white, set in stone. ONLY HAVE CURVES (or ONLY HAVE STRAIGHT LINES), it's not a matter of any interpretation, strict or otherwise. It's following the theme. |
Then a number of entries should be DQ'd on that basis. But the way it works is that the DPC collective determines the fate of an entry that may not perfectly fit the stated topic.
It is a double edged sword. My wife cowtownmom entered this pic in the "Sentinel" challenge. I think the subject fit the topic better than all the lone trees on hills did. It is a sub hunter, It's mission is to guard a fleet against submarines. It got creamed worse than I expected because it didn't convey how this was a sentinel and people did not see that in it. They just saw a plane. But it totally, 100% fit the topic.
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But you're saying what I'm saying...
"Sentinel" is an open to interpretation challenge.
"Straight Lines" is a concrete no interpretation challenge (unless they changed ONLY to MOSTLY)
I stated an image is not DQable because it fails to meet the challenge.
The problem is that we have voters who ignore the challenge theme (when it's clear and not up for interpretation) and reward DNMC photos with high scores. It's allowed, it's valid, and it's wrong of them to do so.
As for your wife's photo... since it was for interpretation, they didn't make the connection. Fair. Had the challenge been "Include a plane in your photo" then it's NOT up to interpretation and a DNMC vote would be wrong. |
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05/10/2012 02:18:40 PM · #96 |
I still think it's not as black & white an issue as you believe.
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05/10/2012 02:21:38 PM · #97 |
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
Sorry, there is criteria here, the challenge was upside down, that was the criteria and I met that in anybodies definition. And, as said, I don't care (that) much about the odd 1 vote but yes, there are some numbskulls here and vote stupidly, I give very few 1 votes and it is usually for a very small image that in no way meets the challenge. At the end of the day I was happy with the score, was just trying to make a point about some voters and perceived 'cliche' shots. I've been here long enough to see very (very) few 'new' images. |
Challenge criteria maybe, not voting criteria. They are not mutually inclusive much to your insistence. Sure, you might have met the challenge, but we're talking about voting and how you got a one. Just because something meets the challenge criteria doesn't automatically imply it should get a vote of X. You might think so, but again, it's entirely subjective. klkitchens pointed out that maybe people are simply tired of seeing water drops, squirrels, swans, whatever, and vote them down. Look, I don't know what makes other voters tick, nor do I really care. It's the insistence that images can't get vote X, and when people say that explicitly after voting, that really bothers me.
CS |
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05/10/2012 02:21:53 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by yanko:
If I don't like the way the thumbnail looks and I never click on it why would it matter if I had a negative perception on the image? In other words, if I'm skipping it (i.e. not voting on it) how does it affect that image? |
Your lack of a vote skews the underlying number of votes on that image. So now when the next person comes along and votes on both images, the ranking change even though they should remain the same.
Photo B you skipped, but otherwise would have given a 1 to. Thus making both a 6.0000 average with 60 votes.
A - 60 votes - 6.0000 average
B - 59 votes - 6.0847 average
Next voter comes along and gives both a 1.
A - 61 votes - 5.9180 average
B - 60 votes - 5.9167 average
Because you skipped over photo B, when the next person comes along and gives both the same vote now, the rankings change because of your omission.
After challenges I always check the min/max # of votes and it's often in the 15% range.
CS |
As I said to Paul, cherry picking is essentially random. No two people are going to cherry pick the same set of images to vote on. So what you describe applies equally to voting the "normal" way. The issue that you're raising is caused by the the 20% requirement, not cherry picking.
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 14:22:49.
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05/10/2012 02:25:20 PM · #99 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Well, in the case of your image, there are two things against it (just to argue the point, I think it's cool)
One you do have to double check to confirm it's upside down. On first glance the ripples could belong to the reflection too.
Second, some people do penalize for content and originality. Water drops are overdone here (or paint drops, etc...). Same with Woody. I've entered woody shots and been hammered for it. Others do it and get ribbons. |
Thanks for the reply, however, if having to look twice was a good reason for giving a 1 then the blue ribbon winner would have received many more. And, as for water drops being overdone I honestly feel that it's a myth put about that those that don't particularly like them (or can't do them). It's a little like saying a landscape shot is cliche so vote it a 1, or a portrait, vote it a 1.
As I said before, I really don't care, was trying to make a point and even if I really don't like an image it has to pretty bad on several levels to warrant a 1.
yes, we can all give out own subjective vote and I think I'll be giving all portrait, pet, flower, landscape, B&W, SP type shots (to name a few) a 1 in future :) |
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05/10/2012 02:33:54 PM · #100 |
Originally posted by Ecce Signum:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Well, in the case of your image, there are two things against it (just to argue the point, I think it's cool)
One you do have to double check to confirm it's upside down. On first glance the ripples could belong to the reflection too.
Second, some people do penalize for content and originality. Water drops are overdone here (or paint drops, etc...). Same with Woody. I've entered woody shots and been hammered for it. Others do it and get ribbons. |
Thanks for the reply, however, if having to look twice was a good reason for giving a 1 then the blue ribbon winner would have received many more. And, as for water drops being overdone I honestly feel that it's a myth put about that those that don't particularly like them (or can't do them). It's a little like saying a landscape shot is cliche so vote it a 1, or a portrait, vote it a 1.
As I said before, I really don't care, was trying to make a point and even if I really don't like an image it has to pretty bad on several levels to warrant a 1.
yes, we can all give out own subjective vote and I think I'll be giving all portrait, pet, flower, landscape, B&W, SP type shots (to name a few) a 1 in future :) |
To echo your sentiment I'll bring out my own photo as an example. One of my highest rated photos
got 4 1's and 3 2's. Does this irk me? Yes. Do I have a lot more satisfaction from the numerous positive and constructive comments? Absolutely. But still... Dang 4 1's. And I find it hard to believe that it's DNMC. Either people think I cheated or I got trolled. |
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