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05/10/2012 11:26:26 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by james_so:
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
2 - I would like to see that your vote only counts on a higher threshold. Right now, I think 20% is too low. I'm not seeing how raising this number by another 20% will greatly diminish the number of voters. Personally, I think 100% should be the norm, but that will never happen. It would eliminate the bias selective voting has when an off from average voter votes.
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I wonder if having the average % voted would be a good stat to have on profile pages, people always try to have their stats look as good as possible so maybe it would improve things, just a thought. |
does it matter? if you dont meet the minimum your votes get scrubbed anyhow. |
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05/10/2012 11:29:07 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
the end result doesn't necessarily say a photo is absolutely good or bad |
But that is the clear message that is delivered by a low vote, regardless of the reality. You drop a 1 on my entry you are saying it is awful, even by snapshot standards. |
not necessarily, a one could mean DNMC could mean that you dont agree with/like the subject or content portrayed, etc. |
So why then, do we place so much value on the average score? Perhaps I've been too generous with subjects I find boring, giving at least a 6 for a well done shot, even if I find the subject to be a snoozefest.
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05/10/2012 11:30:53 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
Originally posted by Mark-A:
When I first started here I did vote on preference rather than thinking about technicals etc - which I think happens quite a lot - technically good images getting extremely low votes can surely only suggest that or tactical voting?
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This is what I mean- we all have our own assumptions and logic that we vote by and assume everybody subscribes to.
I know of a number of folks who have openly stated that they vote technically good photos that lack feeling extremely low because they are empty photos.
Here's the thing though- their argument is just as valid as yours, yet your statement relegates them to trolls here. |
I never labelled anyone a Troll :) I said we have these so called troll voters. |
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05/10/2012 11:37:10 AM · #54 |
As a test, i went through and scored all images in the landscape challenge myself and had my friend come by once i had finished and asked him to vote as he saw fit for whatever reasons he wanted - be it technical, aesthetic, caption or just felt like he was in a 'mood' (good/bad).
The result over two days of doing this were interesting. My original vote was in the 5.8 average, where my friend lowered my average vote to sub-4. He gave 8s and 9s to photos that i had given a 2 or 3 because 'he just felt like they deserved it', no rhyme or reason that he could give. His "average" photo got a 3, a 'good' got a 4 and about 20 photos he just said "1, next!" as soon as it loaded.
i've since gone back and reset the scores to what i feel is appropriate (may not be exact same, but it's close). I just thought with all the score talk lately (including comments of my own) that i'd get a 'fresh' perspective on it, and i was shocked. Thought i'd share this with you all for some 'food for thought'. |
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05/10/2012 11:43:44 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by lreynelsg:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
the end result doesn't necessarily say a photo is absolutely good or bad |
But that is the clear message that is delivered by a low vote, regardless of the reality. You drop a 1 on my entry you are saying it is awful, even by snapshot standards. |
Agree... IMHO, on a scale from 1 to 10, if you vote a picture all the way down to 1 it's because of one two reasons:
- You really DON'T like that picture
- You're a very extreme person if you're using "1" to say "DNMC". Even if it DNMC you could appreciate some value in the image, whether it's technique or colors or whatever... |
Well, I used to do that (and rightly so)... In order to be voted on an image should qualify for the challenge... then it should be on a 1-10 scale. But we cannot vote 0 (we should be able to), so a 1 is the lowest we can go.
We have too many ribboners that fail to meet the challenge -- in both objective and subjective sense -- because it's a good photo and people "reward" it in spite of DNMC.
The winner in twisted for example. Hate to call him out -- it's a great image.
However the challenge clearly says: "Capture an image that includes only curves, twists or other non-straight lines."
A quick look at the photo reveals tons of straight lines in it. So did it meet the challenge? No. No one can honestly say that it did. This is an objective criteria and is not up for dispute.
That said, the DPC crowd rewarded it with 9 10s, 15 9s, 23 8s, 36 7s and 25 6s. For a photo that did not meet the challenge description. The voters basically said "I don't care what you were supposed to take a photo of, I like this photo anyway and will reward it."
Is this right? Well DNMC is not grounds for DQ and each person can vote how they see fit... so yes it's "right" that it won. I would have given it a 7 as I stated in the comment, but I now apply a -3 penalty for DNMC, so I voted it a 4. That was fair in my book.
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 11:44:53. |
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05/10/2012 11:44:31 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by RyanWareham:
As a test, i went through and scored all images in the landscape challenge myself and had my friend come by once i had finished and asked him to vote as he saw fit for whatever reasons he wanted - be it technical, aesthetic, caption or just felt like he was in a 'mood' (good/bad).
The result over two days of doing this were interesting. My original vote was in the 5.8 average, where my friend lowered my average vote to sub-4. He gave 8s and 9s to photos that i had given a 2 or 3 because 'he just felt like they deserved it', no rhyme or reason that he could give. His "average" photo got a 3, a 'good' got a 4 and about 20 photos he just said "1, next!" as soon as it loaded.
i've since gone back and reset the scores to what i feel is appropriate (may not be exact same, but it's close). I just thought with all the score talk lately (including comments of my own) that i'd get a 'fresh' perspective on it, and i was shocked. Thought i'd share this with you all for some 'food for thought'. |
you should go over and calm down the landscape thread, i suspect they may all be freaking out over a troll infestation! |
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05/10/2012 12:00:41 PM · #57 |
I am asking this 6 years now... Langdon should publicly release all troll's eMail address, phone numbers and mailing addresses here.
we "promise" we won't do anything bad }-)
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05/10/2012 12:10:11 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by FocusPoint:
I am asking this 6 years now... Langdon should publicly release all troll's eMail address, phone numbers and mailing addresses here.
we "promise" we won't do anything bad }-) |
Treat them like those that write bad checks at the market... post their license photos :) |
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05/10/2012 12:12:55 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
[ hahn23 pointed out some voters cherry pick which images to vote on, and this is definitely an issue. james_so has the solution where you can only see the thumbnail page after you've voted on 100% of the images. I like this solution but it could lead to someone simply mashing down a button to fly through them quickly. |
Couple problems with that, for me:
1: I commonly have seen half a dozen of the entries in a given challenge before the voting even starts (I give a lot of processing advice and general feedback before challenges) and I don't vote on those, so I'd never get to see the thumbs.
2: I commonly "sort first" and then fine-tune my voting by reexamining the blocs of votes and bumping to the final levels. Really hard to do without the thumbs to orient myself.
R.
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05/10/2012 12:16:37 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
[ hahn23 pointed out some voters cherry pick which images to vote on, and this is definitely an issue. james_so has the solution where you can only see the thumbnail page after you've voted on 100% of the images. I like this solution but it could lead to someone simply mashing down a button to fly through them quickly. |
Couple problems with that, for me:
1: I commonly have seen half a dozen of the entries in a given challenge before the voting even starts (I give a lot of processing advice and general feedback before challenges) and I don't vote on those, so I'd never get to see the thumbs.
2: I commonly "sort first" and then fine-tune my voting by reexamining the blocs of votes and bumping to the final levels. Really hard to do without the thumbs to orient myself.
R. |
See now I do have a little bit of a problem with this I don't think we should be having all these threads about help me choose the right shot etc etc I don't know why I feel this way but for some reason it doesn't seem right - people should process their shot and then take advice after the challenge ends IMHO.
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05/10/2012 12:19:31 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Mark-A:
See now I do have a little bit of a problem with this I don't think we should be having all these threads about help me choose the right shot etc etc I don't know why I feel this way but for some reason it doesn't seem right - people should process their shot and then take advice after the challenge ends IMHO. |
Agree. Good luck stopping it.
I have asked for advice before submissions when I was newer here, now I don't care so much before the challenge and will ask after the fact.
CS |
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05/10/2012 12:20:15 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
A quick look at the photo reveals tons of straight lines in it. So did it meet the challenge? No. No one can honestly say that it did. This is an objective criteria and is not up for dispute.
That said, the DPC crowd rewarded it with 9 10s, 15 9s, 23 8s, 36 7s and 25 6s. For a photo that did not meet the challenge description. The voters basically said "I don't care what you were supposed to take a photo of, I like this photo anyway and will reward it." |
My own entry in straight had some non-straight lines and pulled a top 10. I had honestly expected to be punished for having some curves, but to me the straightness was dominant and I took the risk. I'm sure some of my low votes were for that aspect that didn't fit the description to the letter.
I've said it before: The visual strength of an image counts for more than meeting everyone's interpretation of the topic.
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05/10/2012 12:23:29 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Mark-A:
See now I do have a little bit of a problem with this I don't think we should be having all these threads about help me choose the right shot etc etc I don't know why I feel this way but for some reason it doesn't seem right - people should process their shot and then take advice after the challenge ends IMHO. |
It's part of DPC's function for learning. The pre-challenge advice in choosing and editing all helps to understand what we are doing and why some images work while others don't.
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05/10/2012 12:23:47 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
We have too many ribboners that fail to meet the challenge -- in both objective and subjective sense -- because it's a good photo and people "reward" it in spite of DNMC. |
Again, in total agreement. A flawless photo in every sense that doesn't meet the challenge will get hammered from me. If I don't see the connection immediately, I will often save it for later to determine if I'm missing anything. If after further thought it's tenuous at best, or simply not at all, I fire away on the lower end.
CS |
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05/10/2012 12:26:21 PM · #65 |
i'll give yo an even better example:
this isn't even "panning" at all, its shooting a subject while you are both spinning!
its a great shot though :)
ETA, it looks as if it got some DNMCs too, with not one but two, 1s,2s, and 3's
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 12:27:45. |
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05/10/2012 12:28:03 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
A quick look at the photo reveals tons of straight lines in it. So did it meet the challenge? No. No one can honestly say that it did. This is an objective criteria and is not up for dispute.
That said, the DPC crowd rewarded it with 9 10s, 15 9s, 23 8s, 36 7s and 25 6s. For a photo that did not meet the challenge description. The voters basically said "I don't care what you were supposed to take a photo of, I like this photo anyway and will reward it." |
My own entry in straight had some non-straight lines and pulled a top 10. I had honestly expected to be punished for having some curves, but to me the straightness was dominant and I took the risk. I'm sure some of my low votes were for that aspect that didn't fit the description to the letter.
I've said it before: The visual strength of an image counts for more than meeting everyone's interpretation of the topic. |
Mine in straight as well as round spots and I noted so in the comments expecting to be penalized, but played the odds.
However in this case there was no interpretation required. Objectively -- are their straight lines? Yes DNMC. No? Met Challenge, now vote on quality. |
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05/10/2012 12:29:57 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I've said it before: In my opinion the visual strength of an image counts for more than meeting everyone's interpretation of the topic. |
In the curve challenge, the description is fairly black and white. If you chose to ignore it it's either because of that or you don't comprehend what the word only means. Obviously you're in the former category, but it's an either or scenario for everyone else.
CS
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 12:30:55. |
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05/10/2012 12:33:48 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by Mark-A:
See now I do have a little bit of a problem with this I don't think we should be having all these threads about help me choose the right shot etc etc I don't know why I feel this way but for some reason it doesn't seem right - people should process their shot and then take advice after the challenge ends IMHO. |
It's part of DPC's function for learning. The pre-challenge advice in choosing and editing all helps to understand what we are doing and why some images work while others don't. |
Nothing you wrote changes if you ask after the challenge has finished. If anything, it's probably a better learning experience to wait, then you can see what you tried and how well it was perceived on your own merits and ideas.
CS |
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05/10/2012 12:40:49 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I've said it before: In my opinion the visual strength of an image counts for more than meeting everyone's interpretation of the topic. |
In the curve challenge, the description is fairly black and white. If you chose to ignore it it's either because of that or you don't comprehend what the word only means. Obviously you're in the former category, but it's an either or scenario for everyone else.
CS |
Not my opinion. My observation over the course of 400+ challenges. How rigid the challenge topic is will vary by individual. You are probably fairly strict in your interpretations, while others feel the topic is meant to be no more than a guideline for the photographer's benefit. I lie in the middle somewhere. If I can perceive a genuine effort to meet the spirit of the challenge, I will consider it just fine. If I feel it is totally shoehorned, I will vote low. (That being said, I have participated in the greate art of shoehorning myself, getting both punished for it and rewarded with high placement.) An expertly shoehorned image will get enough high votes to more than make up for the lowballs.
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05/10/2012 12:43:43 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I've said it before: In my opinion the visual strength of an image counts for more than meeting everyone's interpretation of the topic. |
In the curve challenge, the description is fairly black and white. If you chose to ignore it it's either because of that or you don't comprehend what the word only means. Obviously you're in the former category, but it's an either or scenario for everyone else.
CS |
An excellent set of challenges to use to prove my point. My own entry pulled a top 10 in "straight". It does have some curved lines in it, but the straight pattern is dominant. Most people saw that and felt it was within the spirit of the challenge. I actually expected more people to low vote it for not complying to the lettter.
Message edited by author 2012-05-10 12:45:33.
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05/10/2012 12:50:09 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I've said it before: In my opinion the visual strength of an image counts for more than meeting everyone's interpretation of the topic. |
In the curve challenge, the description is fairly black and white. If you chose to ignore it it's either because of that or you don't comprehend what the word only means. Obviously you're in the former category, but it's an either or scenario for everyone else.
CS |
An excellent set of challenges to use to prove my point. My own entry pulled a top 10 in "straight". It does have some curved lines in it, but the straight pattern is dominant. Most people saw that and felt it was within the spirit of the challenge. I actually expected more people to low vote it for not complying to the lettter.
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But it was NOT within the spirit of the challenge as this was not an interpretive challenge. It was black and white with an absolute qualifier on it.
That's what us "purists" don't get. It has curves in it, the challenge says NO curves.
Indiana Jones: "I said NO camels, that's FIVE camels. Can't you count?" (from Last Crusade)
Great shot and they should modify the challenge to say MOSTLY straight lines, then it would count and be interpretive as to what mostly means. But ONLY means ONLY. |
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05/10/2012 12:51:10 PM · #72 |
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05/10/2012 12:59:15 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Great shot and they should modify the challenge to say MOSTLY straight lines, then it would count and be interpretive as to what mostly means. But ONLY means ONLY. |
It appears that it wasn't taken that way. I did feel the same in the two "missed focus" challenges. The subject was missed focus, not a general blur challenge, but many sharply focused motion blur shots did well.
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05/10/2012 01:06:32 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
Originally posted by klkitchens:
Great shot and they should modify the challenge to say MOSTLY straight lines, then it would count and be interpretive as to what mostly means. But ONLY means ONLY. |
It appears that it wasn't taken that way. I did feel the same in the two "missed focus" challenges. The subject was missed focus, not a general blur challenge, but many sharply focused motion blur shots did well. |
But this is where we disagree. I don't think it "wasn't taken that way"
I think it was ignored because people liked the shots and "don't want to be mean".
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05/10/2012 01:06:43 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by james_so:
Originally posted by cosmicassassin:
2 - I would like to see that your vote only counts on a higher threshold. Right now, I think 20% is too low. I'm not seeing how raising this number by another 20% will greatly diminish the number of voters. Personally, I think 100% should be the norm, but that will never happen. It would eliminate the bias selective voting has when an off from average voter votes.
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I wonder if having the average % voted would be a good stat to have on profile pages, people always try to have their stats look as good as possible so maybe it would improve things, just a thought. |
does it matter? if you dont meet the minimum your votes get scrubbed anyhow. |
I'm suggesting it for people who vote 20% and over, otherwise the stat would just be 0% for the reasons you mention... ;)
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