'Real' Trolls - DPChallenge Forums

05/10/2012 10:07:58 AM · #26

Originally posted by klkitchens:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by pamb:

I do have a problem with:
* people who, as the end of the voting period approaches, make large downward OR upward adjustments to their preexisting vote (perhaps in the hope of giving an advantage to their own or their friends chances)
* vote during the last 24hrs and hammer everything

(I'm ready for the flaming I'm about to receive..... :) )

Curious to hear how you know these folks are doing this, other than that you're presuming justifications for them.

1. If your score drops, and you get no new votes.

2. There is a wealth of anecdotal evidence from many here that scores drop on the last day of voting. Does this mean that all low voters deliberately wait until the end? Who knows.

Ultimately, we only can see what our image does. I sometimes don't vote until the last day of a challenge if I can get to it. I vote fairly all the time, so to the ones who get a sub-5 vote from me, they think they are getting trolled in the end while the ones who get a 6+ from me don't think anything of it.

1st day or last day, a vote is a vote.

* Of course I'm presuming justifications. I'm not clever enough to do otherwise.
* Anecdotal evidence, not hard facts and science.
* I do not mean (nor did I say) ONLY downwards - I believe I included upwards as well - scores changing with no new votes.

//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actorâ��observer_bias

05/10/2012 10:19:05 AM · #27

05/10/2012 10:31:24 AM · #28

There's also introspection bias towards one's own work.

CS

05/10/2012 10:35:46 AM · #29

On quick read of the Actor-observer bias - are you inferring that I'm a closet troll? :)

Let me reiterate - not clever enough by half to keep up with you lot. :)

05/10/2012 10:37:47 AM · #30

i know for a fact this person displays bias in voting in challenges they enter:

biased voter

05/10/2012 10:48:11 AM · #31

Originally posted by mike_311:

i know for a fact this person displays bias in voting in challenges they enter:

biased voter

Not sure if sarcasm tags are missing or not.
If they're not, please explain.

CS

05/10/2012 10:49:39 AM · #32

old joke, don't bite!

05/10/2012 10:50:43 AM · #33

Originally posted by pamb:

On quick read of the Actor-observer bias - are you inferring that I'm a closet troll? :)

Let me reiterate - not clever enough by half to keep up with you lot. :)

cosmicassassin's further addition.

I'm largely of the opinion that this boogeyman that everybody searches for isn't there, that it's conjured up out of assumptions and yearnings for explanations for why we aren't all masters. The reason we aren't all masters is that there can't be an infinite number of masters or they'd all be mediocre. Our photos score low because they warrant the votes in consideration of the competition.
I'd also like to reiterate that voting in any population is an embodiment or testament of what that group's core ideals are, or at least what the group perceives its ideals are (not the same). What this means is that DPC has a defined aesthetic to voting, and the end result doesn't necessarily say a photo is absolutely good or bad, just that it is good in consideration of DPC's percieved specific expectations and values.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

05/10/2012 10:50:47 AM · #34

Originally posted by cosmicassassin:

Originally posted by mike_311:
i know for a fact this person displays bias in voting in challenges they enter:

biased voter

Not sure if sarcasm tags are missing or not.
If they're not, please explain.

CS

everyone that clicks it sees their own profile...

Message edited by author 2012-05-10 10:52:51.

CJinCA

Canon EOS-7D

05/10/2012 10:51:37 AM · #35

Originally posted by cosmicassassin:

He He, tell him what you did Mike. He's been called a troll before so this hits too close to home. :-D

eta - You're quick Mike.

Message edited by author 2012-05-10 10:52:35.

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

05/10/2012 10:52:21 AM · #36

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

It's a description of various ways that we define other's behavior as compared to our own and how the two differ. People don't view their own behavior the same as others; the differences can be described in a multitude of ways (as illustrated by cosmicassassin's further addition.

I'm largely of the opinion that this boogeyman that everybody searches for isn't there, that it's conjured up out of assumptions and yearnings for explanations for why we aren't all masters. The reason we aren't all masters is that there can't be an infinite number of masters or they'd all be mediocre. Our photos score low because they warrant the votes in consideration of the competition.
I'd also like to reiterate that voting in any population is an embodiment or testament of what that group's core ideals are, or at least what the group perceives its ideals are (not the same). What this means is that DPC has a defined aesthetic to voting, and the end result doesn't necessarily say a photo is absolutely good or bad, just that it is good in consideration of DPC's percieved specific expectations and values.

well said.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

05/10/2012 10:53:48 AM · #37

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

the end result doesn't necessarily say a photo is absolutely good or bad

But that is the clear message that is delivered by a low vote, regardless of the reality. You drop a 1 on my entry you are saying it is awful, even by snapshot standards.

Canon RF 100-500mm f/4.5-7.1 L IS USM

05/10/2012 10:56:06 AM · #38

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
the end result doesn't necessarily say a photo is absolutely good or bad

But that is the clear message that is delivered by a low vote, regardless of the reality. You drop a 1 on my entry you are saying it is awful, even by snapshot standards.

not necessarily, a one could mean DNMC could mean that you dont agree with/like the subject or content portrayed, etc.

Message edited by author 2012-05-10 10:56:59.

MargaretNet

Sony DSC-RX100 VII

05/10/2012 10:58:59 AM · #39

Originally posted by EL-ROI:

Just make all the votes random. Instead of a 1 to 10 scale, just have one button labeled Vote and the system can assign a random score to the image.

+1 ;)

theluissales

Canon EOS R7

05/10/2012 11:03:07 AM · #40

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Agree... IMHO, on a scale from 1 to 10, if you vote a picture all the way down to 1 it's because of one two reasons:

- You really DON'T like that picture
- You're a very extreme person if you're using "1" to say "DNMC". Even if it DNMC you could appreciate some value in the image, whether it's technique or colors or whatever...

05/10/2012 11:03:53 AM · #41

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

In regards to the DPC perceived aesthetic, sure, it's not so great. What I'm getting at is that this is one unit of measurement amongst many. The units of measurement in art cannot be converted from one community/aesthetic to another, yet we assume them to be. That is the basis of much of the displeasure by entrants here, methinks. All art is loved and hated, you can't convert Pollock units into Rembrandt cubits.

Note how differently the same photo may be received, by the same populace, in a SC vs a voted competition. This is why I say perceived ideals are so separate. We are voting using this ruler that the discussions have given us to judge entrants by. This is a learning site, which is great, but it also means that people are very apt to take on what they are instructed or shown is quality. What graced the front page when you joined? How did that influence your perception of "quality" photography? As a noob, you join taking snapshots likely. Then, after folks say "that's a snapshot, due to A B C," you stop doing A B and C and start commenting on other photos with A B and C in them, saying, maybe you shouldn't do that, either.

05/10/2012 11:06:22 AM · #42

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

I'm largely of the opinion that this boogeyman that everybody searches for isn't there, that it's conjured up out of assumptions and yearnings for explanations for why we aren't all masters. The reason we aren't all masters is that there can't be an infinite number of masters or they'd all be mediocre. Our photos score low because they warrant the votes in consideration of the competition.
I'd also like to reiterate that voting in any population is an embodiment or testament of what that group's core ideals are, or at least what the group perceives its ideals are (not the same). What this means is that DPC has a defined aesthetic to voting, and the end result doesn't necessarily say a photo is absolutely good or bad, just that it is good in consideration of DPC's percieved specific expectations and values.

Never fear - I know and am really comfortable with the fact that I'm not one of the masters. I really don't yearn for explanations about why this is so. I'd like to reiterate: I'm not just talking about why *my* photos score low, but also why *my* photos get (imo) unrealistic high votes!

05/10/2012 11:08:53 AM · #43

Originally posted by lreynelsg:

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:
the end result doesn't necessarily say a photo is absolutely good or bad

But that is the clear message that is delivered by a low vote, regardless of the reality. You drop a 1 on my entry you are saying it is awful, even by snapshot standards.

Agree... IMHO, on a scale from 1 to 10, if you vote a picture all the way down to 1 it's because of one two reasons:

- You really DON'T like that picture
- You're a very extreme person if you're using "1" to say "DNMC". Even if it DNMC you could appreciate some value in the image, whether it's technique or colors or whatever...

You are projecting your own criteria, justifications, and expectations upon other voters who view things and life in an entirely different fashion. This is exactly what I meant by my earlier posts. To them, a 1 might not be much of a big deal at all, and there's no way to know if they are voting to say your photo is the worst in the world or that they vote a 1 thinking 'subpar.' Yet we presume to know.

These are YOUR reasons. You're entitled to them. They are not everybody's.

05/10/2012 11:09:30 AM · #44

Originally posted by mike_311:

everyone that clicks it sees their own profile...

[NOT_SARCARM_TAG] You're a jerk. [/NOT_SARCASM_TAG]

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

But that is the clear message that is delivered by a low vote, regardless of the reality. You drop a 1 on my entry you are saying it is awful, even by snapshot standards.

Not necessarily. I hand out 1s and 2s like candy. Here's my logic. The photos which I'm enamored with, I want them to get the full benefit of my high vote. So I have very few in the 10s (extremely rare), 9s (at least one but never more than three in every challenge), 8s (normally three to six), 7s, ..... and so on. I want those photos to have a better chance of moving up through the ranks, it is a challenge after all. Four is the number I give out for an average photo here. That doesn't leave much room for the bottom 50% in every challenge. I'd rather differentiate the upper bracket with greater scrutiny than the bottom because I want my vote to have a greater impact on the photos I like.

The beauty with the system here is that everyone votes differently and for different reasons. Mathematically it should all work itself out in the wash as long as everyone votes fairly according to their system and across the board, so no harm, no foul. This is what people need to understand. If I didn't vote on every entry, than the photos which I skipped would have a slight mathematical advantage.

CS

Message edited by author 2012-05-10 11:17:27.

Mark-A

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

05/10/2012 11:09:52 AM · #45

When I first started here I did vote on preference rather than thinking about technicals etc - which I think happens quite a lot - technically good images getting extremely low votes can surely only suggest that or tactical voting?

Nowadays I tend to vote higher on average overall on a challenge but I still use the full voting scale (but I only give 1s on very poor images that DNMC) but then I give 10s quite rarely so my scale is more towards the middle and is more like a decent bell shape.

What amazes me is that we have these so called Trolls yet images that clearly DNMC can still take a blue - you don't have to look too hard to find one! ;)

I personally gave the twisted winner a 3 it was an amazing shot but it was so far off of the challenge criteria that I just couldn't score it high but there's no way it deserved a 1 or a 2...

I agree removing the thumbs until 100% of voting is achieved is a pretty good idea - although having said that I do go through and mark images randomly occassionally but I always vote on 100% of a challenge even when doing this. I have in the past prefered not to vote on challenges I've entered (changed that this week and started to vote on entered challenges, felt a little weird because I voted quite low overall but then I felt a lot of the entries DNMC and voted accordingly, still felt I voted fairly though).

05/10/2012 11:16:42 AM · #46

Originally posted by Mark-A:

When I first started here I did vote on preference rather than thinking about technicals etc - which I think happens quite a lot - technically good images getting extremely low votes can surely only suggest that or tactical voting?

This is what I mean- we all have our own assumptions and logic that we vote by and assume everybody subscribes to.
I know of a number of folks who have openly stated that they vote technically good photos that lack feeling extremely low because they are empty photos.

Here's the thing though- their argument is just as valid as yours, yet your statement relegates them to trolls here.

05/10/2012 11:17:52 AM · #47

Originally posted by cosmicassassin:

Originally posted by mike_311:
everyone that clicks it sees their own profile...

[NOT_SARCARM_TAG] You're a jerk. [/NOT_SARCASM_TAG]

not even a chuckle?

05/10/2012 11:20:22 AM · #48

Originally posted by mike_311:

Originally posted by cosmicassassin:

Originally posted by mike_311:
everyone that clicks it sees their own profile...

[NOT_SARCARM_TAG] You're a jerk. [/NOT_SARCASM_TAG]

not even a chuckle?

Maybe a little, but only because I've been called a troll numerous times and keep coming back for more.

CS