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04/24/2012 02:13:28 AM · #226 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I always cheer for the person speaking from the middle. |
Always? Is this some sort of prevent defense you're now adopting? |
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04/24/2012 10:39:11 AM · #227 |
In my view, extremism on any level is kind of hard to swallow. The aggressive atheist isn't something I've seen much of......how, and why, do you have to support your position that you simply don't believe in a god, or in anyone's particular faith that helped them arrive at their faith & beliefs?
For the same reasons that you have faith, having none in a supreme being just is.....
There certainly is a lot more motivation for the believers of the world to convince others that what they have to offer is true......what's the motivation of someone who simply does not believe to try and sway someone else? Sure, in a discussion, an atheist will put forth that there is no proof, and no logical reason to believe, but there's no gain for him if he were to convince someone......it's not like with a believer who is involved in "Saving" someone.
So this whole premise is kind of flawed, because if someone is a true atheist, he simply is *not* in this category.
Proffered by Fred:"Instead, the atheist and those whom he convinces of his position slide into eternity with their fingers crossed and hope they do not find the unpleasant truth that eternity does indeed exist."
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04/24/2012 10:42:48 AM · #228 |
And thus the "no true Scotsman" fallacy surfaces as the "no true atheist" fallacy. Where's Shannon when we need him?
R.
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04/24/2012 10:44:09 AM · #229 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I always cheer for the person speaking from the middle. |
Always? Is this some sort of prevent defense you're now adopting? |
You haven't figured out that I am in the middle politically as well as philosophically? I tend to take the opposite side of you guys in these threads, but it is in order to balance the conversation. If you approach me with a much more circumspect view, I'm quite liable to reflect that back.
This doesn't mean I'm not squarely in the Christian camp, but I'm happy to understand the other side. |
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04/24/2012 10:49:56 AM · #230 |
From the Slate "conversation", this:
"Finally, just a quick word on your “if it feels good, don’t do it” distillation of my message. We can dig into this more as we go, but for now I’d just point out that at various times, Christianity—and particularly my own Catholicism, the faith of carousing Irishmen, hedonistic Italians, and “give me chastity, Lord, but Lord not yet” sinners in every time and place—has been scolded for being altogether too worldly, too pleasure-loving, too forgiving of the weaknesses of the flesh. If orthodoxy seems puritanical to you today, maybe it’s less because it’s inherently anti-fun and anti-feelgood than because we live in a society distinguished by such extraordinary excess—gluttonous, libidinous, avaricious—that what a different era might recognize as a healthy balance between asceticism and indulgence looks like hopeless prudishness instead."
That's a remarkably perceptive statement, to my way of thinking :-)
R.
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04/24/2012 11:04:02 AM · #231 |
| Just a quick rant to an off topic for a moment. My cousin, who was catholic with 8 kids, killed himself Sunday. Hung himself in his garage and was found by his sixteen year old daughter. Now, mind you, he wasn't sick. He was in a happy relationship (as far anyone knew), owned his owned business. So the why is definitely out there. But what is bothering me is the messages posted to his family. Quite a number of them mention him being in a better place, or being with the angels, or being an angel now. My understanding of the catholic religion is if you kill yourself you are going to hell. So, if these people posting these messages are catholic, why would they say he's in a better place? How could he be an angel? I'm sure they are just words meant to comfort but they make no sense from a religious perspective. |
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04/24/2012 11:10:10 AM · #232 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Just a quick rant to an off topic for a moment. My cousin, who was catholic with 8 kids, killed himself Sunday. Hung himself in his garage and was found by his sixteen year old daughter. Now, mind you, he wasn't sick. He was in a happy relationship (as far anyone knew), owned his owned business. So the why is definitely out there. But what is bothering me is the messages posted to his family. Quite a number of them mention him being in a better place, or being with the angels, or being an angel now. My understanding of the catholic religion is if you kill yourself you are going to hell. So, if these people posting these messages are catholic, why would they say he's in a better place? How could he be an angel? I'm sure they are just words meant to comfort but they make no sense from a religious perspective. |
Having been there with a member of my own family, I often wondered why someone in most need of God's love, compassion, and understanding would be burned in Hell.
Suicide is pretty much the most extreme cry for help.......and God would turn his back?
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04/24/2012 11:35:41 AM · #233 |
 Kelli I am sorry for your loss. It is always hard on the family when there is a suicide.
The Catholics believe that suicide will send you to hell because you are damaging god's creation...(your body) There are some catholics now that do believe that doctorine. My ex-wife was catholic and did not follow everything that the catholic church said.
Myself...being Methodist...I do not believe that suicide sends you to hell. I do think that it puts the family through hell.
The Catholics also believe in purgatory. Everyone spends time in purgatory working off their sins.
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04/24/2012 11:45:19 AM · #234 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
From the Slate "conversation", this:
"Finally, just a quick word on your “if it feels good, don’t do it” distillation of my message. We can dig into this more as we go, but for now I’d just point out that at various times, Christianity—and particularly my own Catholicism, the faith of carousing Irishmen, hedonistic Italians, and “give me chastity, Lord, but Lord not yet” sinners in every time and place—has been scolded for being altogether too worldly, too pleasure-loving, too forgiving of the weaknesses of the flesh. If orthodoxy seems puritanical to you today, maybe it’s less because it’s inherently anti-fun and anti-feelgood than because we live in a society distinguished by such extraordinary excess—gluttonous, libidinous, avaricious—that what a different era might recognize as a healthy balance between asceticism and indulgence looks like hopeless prudishness instead."
That's a remarkably perceptive statement, to my way of thinking :-)
R. |
Amen. This guy can write! |
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04/24/2012 03:00:08 PM · #235 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Just a quick rant to an off topic for a moment. My cousin, who was catholic with 8 kids, killed himself Sunday. Hung himself in his garage and was found by his sixteen year old daughter. Now, mind you, he wasn't sick. He was in a happy relationship (as far anyone knew), owned his owned business. So the why is definitely out there. But what is bothering me is the messages posted to his family. Quite a number of them mention him being in a better place, or being with the angels, or being an angel now. My understanding of the catholic religion is if you kill yourself you are going to hell. So, if these people posting these messages are catholic, why would they say he's in a better place? How could he be an angel? I'm sure they are just words meant to comfort but they make no sense from a religious perspective. |
Wow, that is truly sad.
What is being said is from a family ripped apart by such a tragedy. I'm sure they're trying to wrap their heads around this tragedy and find some goodness in it.
My understanding of the Catholic Faith is, if you die with a deadly sin, you remove yourself from God and from heaven. That being said, we don't know what was going on in his head and we don't know what happened. There are requirements for a "deadly sin" and one of them is you have to knowingly and willingly preform the sin. I don't think anyone who kills themselves is in there right mind.
Also, the Catholic Church doesn't proclaim when people are in hell.
That all being said, I will include him and his family in our prayers. This is truly tragic.
P.S.: As a father, I don't think you can be of sound mind and hang yourself in your garage so your loved one can find you. That's beyond human. As Jeb said, I don't think this is a rational mindset and should receive pity and confort.
Message edited by author 2012-04-24 15:10:10. |
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04/24/2012 07:18:15 PM · #236 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Just a quick rant to an off topic for a moment. My cousin, who was catholic with 8 kids, killed himself Sunday. Hung himself in his garage and was found by his sixteen year old daughter. Now, mind you, he wasn't sick. He was in a happy relationship (as far anyone knew), owned his owned business. So the why is definitely out there. But what is bothering me is the messages posted to his family. Quite a number of them mention him being in a better place, or being with the angels, or being an angel now. My understanding of the catholic religion is if you kill yourself you are going to hell. So, if these people posting these messages are catholic, why would they say he's in a better place? How could he be an angel? I'm sure they are just words meant to comfort but they make no sense from a religious perspective. |
Having been there with a member of my own family, I often wondered why someone in most need of God's love, compassion, and understanding would be burned in Hell.
Suicide is pretty much the most extreme cry for help.......and God would turn his back? |
I agree with you there. The thing is, for those who don't believe, the whole "in a better place" thing is a real slap in the face. I can't wrap my mind around how someone could be better off 6 feet under in a box.
And thank you for the condolences guys. |
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04/24/2012 07:38:36 PM · #237 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
This doesn't mean I'm not squarely in the Christian camp, but I'm happy to understand the other side. |
Seriously... I was of the opinion that in order to understand something one had to experience that which one was hoping to understand... or did I miss something. :O)
Ray |
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04/24/2012 07:47:42 PM · #238 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
From the Slate "conversation", this:
"Finally, just a quick word on your “if it feels good, don’t do it” distillation of my message. We can dig into this more as we go, but for now I’d just point out that at various times, Christianity—and particularly my own Catholicism, the faith of carousing Irishmen, hedonistic Italians, and “give me chastity, Lord, but Lord not yet” sinners in every time and place—has been scolded for being altogether too worldly, too pleasure-loving, too forgiving of the weaknesses of the flesh. If orthodoxy seems puritanical to you today, maybe it’s less because it’s inherently anti-fun and anti-feelgood than because we live in a society distinguished by such extraordinary excess—gluttonous, libidinous, avaricious—that what a different era might recognize as a healthy balance between asceticism and indulgence looks like hopeless prudishness instead."
That's a remarkably perceptive statement, to my way of thinking :-)
R. |
Amen. This guy can write! |
Indeed he can, but exactly which specific era was he alluding to... that which prevails today, or that of previous periods in history where debauchery, avarice, gluttony and other sins were the norm.
Just asking,
Ray |
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04/24/2012 10:59:47 PM · #239 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
... exactly which specific era was he alluding to... that which prevails today, or that of previous periods in history where debauchery, avarice, gluttony and other sins were the norm. |
Originally posted by Ambrose Bierce:
BACCHUS, n. A convenient deity invented by the ancients as an excuse for getting drunk. |
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04/25/2012 01:37:30 AM · #240 |
| I think you have the blinders on Ray if you don't see America as anything but a culture of excess. |
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04/25/2012 07:55:51 AM · #241 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think you have the blinders on Ray if you don't see America as anything but a culture of excess. |
The percentages of the people who are the ones that give us that image are lower than you'd imagine.
It's not a nation of hedonists as some would have you believe.......especially in the current economic state.
Yeah, "reality" TV, and the excesses of Hollywood aside, the rest of us out here do have to count our pennies and answer for our behaviors.
I do get so tired of being made to feel guilty just because I was born an American. I work hard, don't drive a Hummer, and have to save up to support my camera habit.
I don't have any friends that are independently wealthy gluttons, either.
Don't believe everything you see on TV.....reality TV.......isn't.
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04/25/2012 11:33:47 AM · #242 |
| Excess doesn't need to mean wealthy. Look at personal debt rates in America. Look at the motifs of our popular music. Look at the messages of our movies and television shows. Look at our obesity rates. After that, tell me we are a culture that values living within ones means. |
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04/25/2012 12:28:14 PM · #243 |
Guess who doesn't run a balance on his credit cards. :)
I highly recommend it. Your money is a lot more effective when it's not servicing debt. Living within one's means means your means mean more over time. Fortunately, I had excellent parenting that stressed the importance of frugality and personal responsibility. Plan for the best, prepare for the worst, etc. It's a lovely secular sentiment. And remember: frugal ain't cheap. It's smart. It's thoughtful and rational. Frugality is essentially an atheist sentiment. We must make the best of what we have, for there isn't anything else.
I feel that religious eschatology actively discourages this sort of thinking... when the world could end at any moment and this life is just a blip on the frontline of eternity, it's less important to plan sensibly for your corporeal future, and your focus shifts to preparing for the hereafter at the expense of the life you're living now. Witness the regular occurrences of people giving away everything they own to prepare for the end times flavor of the month. Witness the Dominionist arguments that climate change is irrelevant because God gave earth to man to use and when Jesus returns he will build a paradise on Earth, obviating any need to moderate today's excesses.
Some would suggest that my current comfortable situation proves I have curried God's favor. This has been a popular sentiment numerous times throughout history, but I don't buy into it. I think where I'm at is more a matter of consistently working 40 hours a week, and making sure I grow my skill set over time, not a supernatural handout. I do, however, enjoy the idea that my situation might tweak people who do believe in earthy rewards in exchange for piety. It might even make them reconsider what it means to be good.
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04/25/2012 01:05:29 PM · #244 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Excess doesn't need to mean wealthy. |
Where does it say that in the Bible? |
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04/25/2012 01:06:38 PM · #245 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Excess doesn't need to mean wealthy. |
Where does it say that in the Bible? |
Come again? |
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04/25/2012 01:16:25 PM · #246 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Excess doesn't need to mean wealthy. Look at personal debt rates in America. Look at the motifs of our popular music. Look at the messages of our movies and television shows. Look at our obesity rates. After that, tell me we are a culture that values living within ones means. |
The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
I'm just saying I look at things differently. I don't really care about the moanings and groanings of statistics, or the folks who want to condemn the whole population for the actions of a few.
Movies and TV aren't real life, heck, I don't even own a TV because I think it's crap. And just because something's popular doesn't make it all encompassing.....as far as "Today's Music", our parents all told us we were going to go to Hell in a handbasket because of the gawd-awful stuff we listened to....."Kids today are no damn good" has been the battle cry of parents and grandparents for time immemorial.
I base my worldview on just that.....what I see, where I live, day in, day out. I don't put on blinders, but by the same token, how often do you turn on the TV, and some talking heads starts going on about the random acts of kindness that happened all over the planet today?
I just took a break from this post to go get a part for one of our customers who is having a problem with his tractor. My job is to duly get someone a part, charge them, get their money, and move on with my day. But we're not sure it's going to fix his tractor, so I just gave it to him to see if it works. We'll settle up the details later.....we're more interested right now in getting his machine fixed.
That doesn't happen so much in this day and age, yet it's not totally uncommon here. This is a smaller city, and people actually care about each other, work together, and don't get caught up so much in what you're selling as mainstream. Maybe it is in the eye of the reporter, but how much commercial airtime are you going to sell talking about nice things? A good portion of life is what you make of it, and personal attitudes. Are YOU listening to this music, seeing these TV shows and movies, and saying "Yep......that's my life.". Do you actually know anybody like that? I sure don't......well, except Slippy.
Somewhere, the nice stuff got lost in favor of the horror fascination, but that doesn't make it the majority of what goes on. Generally, the most noise is made about the most odd, unusual, and tragic incidents.
Which is precisely why I don't have a freakin' TV.....
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04/25/2012 01:44:13 PM · #247 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Excess doesn't need to mean wealthy. |
Where does it say that in the Bible? |
Come again? |
I'm trying to understand what you mean by that. The examples you gave are confusing. Debt = Excess? Poor health = Excess? The one clear example of excess (i.e. monetary wealth) and the one that can be the most destructive to entire societies, you seem to ignore.
Message edited by author 2012-04-25 13:46:38. |
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04/25/2012 01:48:26 PM · #248 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
.....as far as "Today's Music", our parents all told us we were going to go to Hell in a handbasket because of the gawd-awful stuff we listened to....."Kids today are no damn good" has been the battle cry of parents and grandparents for time immemorial. |
Two old guys were lamenting over the state of today's youth.
"I don't know what's wrong with the kids these days -- all they're interested in is sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll."
"Yeah," replied the other, "what was wrong with the good old days, when all we had was wine, women, and song ..."
Note: I first heard this in the late 1960s ... FWIW my teenager's favorite group is Simon & Garfunkel ... |
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04/25/2012 02:07:01 PM · #249 |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Movies and TV aren't real life, heck, I don't even own a TV because I think it's crap. And just because something's popular doesn't make it all encompassing.....as far as "Today's Music", our parents all told us we were going to go to Hell in a handbasket because of the gawd-awful stuff we listened to....."Kids today are no damn good" has been the battle cry of parents and grandparents for time immemorial. |
The people who complain about this stuff ARE the problem. Censorship is far more dangerous than any Jersey Shore episode. What TV really needs is more freedom not less. We can start by showing all of the wars we're engaged in both militarily and commercially. |
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04/25/2012 02:09:39 PM · #250 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Movies and TV aren't real life, heck, I don't even own a TV because I think it's crap. And just because something's popular doesn't make it all encompassing.....as far as "Today's Music", our parents all told us we were going to go to Hell in a handbasket because of the gawd-awful stuff we listened to....."Kids today are no damn good" has been the battle cry of parents and grandparents for time immemorial. |
The people who complain about this stuff ARE the problem. Censorship is far more dangerous than any Jersey Shore episode. What TV really needs is more freedom not less. We can start by showing all of the wars we're engaged in both militarily and commercially. |
I'm sure there's a war channel somewhere. All war, all the time. ;D |
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