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Showing posts 26 - 34 of 34, (reverse)
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 08/08/2004 11:26:27 PM · #26
We should be reminded every day, there are many folks in this world who want us Americans and/or Christians/Jews dead. Shall we fight them here on other soil to keep our freedom. I say where ever we need to. Thanks David, I'm sending the web site to many others.
 08/09/2004 02:23:13 PM · #27
Originally posted by Flash:
We must be prepared for a LONG tenuious struggle. The enemy is implanted deep. Those that hate you because of your ethnicity, religion or country of origin have no intention of letting YOU go. It has nothing to do with Iraq. They have hated you for hundreds of years. You are an Infidel. Unworthy of salvation. Worse than dung. The only hope for you is death. At least then you will be out of your misery. The allies of al queda have become vast and varried. Partners that 20 years ago would have been enemies. But for a short time, they will stomach each other for a greater purpose. We too must stomach each other, for if we do not stand together, we will surely hang separately.


Flash,

From previous posts it's clear that you're a man that really does aim to understand, in order to provide some larger context to what you believe is true. With that in mind, and in case you've not come across it, I refer you to Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror. Bush & Co. have done us all a serious disservice by fomenting the notion that the "Evil'doers hate our freedom," as if this were the sole reason behind Islamic terrorism. One, this explanation is extremely simplistic and, two, it keeps us from holding our public servants (i.e., government) accountable for the policy failures that feed Islamic terrorism. The Amazon.com editors sum up the book thus:

The war on terror has created near unanimity on many points, at least within the American press and political leadership. One essential point of agreement: al Qaeda specifically and radical Islamism in general are stirred by a hatred of modernity. Or as President George W. Bush has articulated repeatedly, they hate freedom. Nonsense, responds the nameless author of this work and 2003's Through Our Enemies' Eyes (the senior U.S. intelligence official's identity became an open secret by publication date). Indeed, he grimly and methodically discards common wisdom throughout this scathing and compelling take on counterterrorism. Imperial Hubris is not a book that will cheer Americans, regardless of their perspectives on the post-9/11 environment. We are, the author notes, losing the war on terror. Hawks will squirm as the author heaps contempt on U.S. missions in Afghanistan (too little, too late) and Iraq ("a sham causing more instability than it prevents"), but opponents of Bush administration policies may blanch at Anonymous' suggestion that what's needed is for the West to "proceed with relentless, brutal, and, yes, blood-soaked offensive military actions until we have annihilated the Islamists who threaten us."

As illustrated above, a better understanding of what it is that Islamic terrorists really hate about us, does not necessarily lead to appeasement. However, to simply go on, as Mr. Bush encourages to, believing that the "Evil'doers hate our freedom," is to remain ignorant about the larger context of the "war on terror." And, as many of us have done (and as Mr. Bush hopes), continue to erroneously assume that Iraq, 9-11 and the "war on terror" are directly linked.
 08/09/2004 07:01:07 PM · #28
bdobe,

Much appreciate your time to read my views. Also appreciate your willingness to present yours. There are many things about this current administration that I do not care for. And I wish that a different option was available than the current opponent. Each of us has some core beliefs that are central to our daily philosophy. Unfortunately or perhaps fortunately, no one else thinks exactly like us. Therefore we capitulate on some in order to have others. As I age, I become increasingly aware that some offices are less about the person and more about the philosophy of the party. In this regard, I will stomach my vote, even if it is not the one I would have preferred. I do hold some cabinet members in high regard, even if they were used to convince a wary community, based on their personal integrity. In this quagmire we find ourselves, regardless of how we got there, I must in my concience, support the decision to press on.

Regarding the "War on Terror", this is a very complicated situation. One of which I have a mere ounce of understanding of the cause and effect relations throughtout the world. I know enough to know that Osama bin Laden's Al Queda and forms of Islamic Fundamentalism have been preparing for this for many many years.....way before we addressed Sadam Husein. In this regard, it is clear to me, that we may not win this war - no matter what we do. All we have done is decide that the time is now to take a stand. Whether this time is written in prophecy or strictly the result of man's ignorance towards man, I do not know. Whether this is all determined or totally dependent on choices of free will, wiser men than I can debate and argue. What I do feel is an obligation, is to face those that are bent on my/our destruction, and let the "Gods" have the final say.

Thanks for the link. I was familiar with excerpts. I do not believe it is enough to point out where sin was committed and wrong done. All have sinned. Every country, every government, every army, every faith, and most all citizens. We do need to continue to hold this and every administration accountable for its decisions. Likewise we need to realize that this enemy is not going away.

Thanks for your point of view.

Flash

08/09/2004 07:31:18 PM · #29
Oh I remember, even if I'm verry far across the ocean I withnessed it all on TV from the verry beginning. Probably one of the most horrible things I ever seen. My first thougts were and still are, my god if this can happen to the all mighty America, how safe am I. Is anyone anwhere safe anymore? No I don't think so. None of us is safe anymore. Those who did that, and who did it in other parts of the world a few times since and who I think will do it again can't be humans. Nothing can justify something like that.
I am sure they will strike again soon, and the creepiest question of all is "Who's next?". But we can't keep living with fear and terror in our spines, couse if we do they win. That's what they want to spread terror and they must not succed. That is all that us small people can do. The war on terror must be taken by the military and governments, the more and more united the better and let's pray to god that they will succeed. That's all we can do i think.
08/09/2004 11:16:03 PM · #30
It certainly is a moving tribute to the victims and heros of the 9/11 attacks. But for fairness sake I think we should also envision it in our mind’s eye the innocent victims in Iraq and Afghanistan who have succumbed to Coalition attack for no reason. I remember hearing about all the people killed in a bombing in Afghanistan during a wedding party and the countless children who have suffered and died from Desert Storm and the invasion of 2003. Children gone hungry and thirsty since Desert Storm because we destroyed their water supplies and ability to produce their own food. Or how so many children are born with deformities because of exposure to depleted uranium that we left there and continue to leave there. Yet, for some people who are having so much problem with the words care or concern, why are you not equally fastidious about the reasons the US gov’t gave for invasion of Iraq in 2003 and the games the US gov’t leaders play with words and phrases? Curious, I’d say.

We attack countries with no proof that they are actively involved with terrorism. If we keep doing this and killing innocent people then for every terrorist we kill another two or three will take their place and we will, as well, make enemies of our friends. As for the person on this thread that keeps using the word sin and talking about the people that hate us, you are making it sound more and more like a religious war. Christianity vs. Islam and that’s pretty barbaric to me. That will certainly not bode well for peace in our lifetime. Also, I highly doubt that a third world scattered people without a government backing them up will be able to take over a technologically advanced country like the US. I don’t think it could ever happen.
08/10/2004 07:07:57 AM · #31
I love that flash. It is very 1984-esque.
 08/10/2004 10:09:37 AM · #32
.

Message edited by author 2004-08-10 10:17:09.
 08/10/2004 10:16:19 AM · #33
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
Originally posted by Flash:

We must be prepared for a LONG tenuious struggle. The enemy is implanted deep. Those that hate you because of your ethnicity, religion or country of origin have no intention of letting YOU go. It has nothing to do with Iraq. They have hated you for hundreds of years.


Hi Flash

I am not sure I agree about the hundreds of years part. Terrorism as a technique is relatively fresh on the scene, and relations between the Muslim world and the western world have not been terrible until just recently.

Are there bad apples out there? Demonstrably, yes. But, imagine how we would all feel if the administration had not spent all its time trying to keep the populace terrified out of its gourd the last 3 years. Everybody would be feeling a lot calmer.

As they should be, because if you do a relative risk analysis, people here are going completely stark raving ballistic over very small personal risk. Imagine living in Israel. Life goes on there too. No, our government wants us terrified, so they keep us that way.

Terrorism is a problem caused by a relatively few zealots. At least it was until the bungled invasion of Iraq - al quedas perfect recruitment tool.

Nevertheless, while there may be millions of Muslims around the world currently pissed off - that is where they will stay. On the other side of the world and pissed off.

All we need to do is keep the bad guys OUT, and catch any who manage to find their way IN.

Too bad we just wasted 250 billion in Iraq which should have spent for this purpose. Too bad Bush has refused to give even a small fraction of the monies requested by his own departments for desperately needed homeland security updates.

Yes - it is as if he does not want to protect us! We still have no security at our ports, or at our airports, or at our borders. Our food chain is not protected, nor our chemical plants, nor our bridges or our tunnels - well, you get the picture.

This is one of the reasons I am happy to vote for Kerry, BTW. I think he actually will intend to protect us at home where it counts.

And I think he won't be so cushy-cushy with the Saudi Royal family either. Saudi Arabia is responsible for the inculcation of most of the anti-American hatred around the world through their madras schools. They also give huge sums of money to known terrorist organizations. They are not the good guys. Unless you are 30-year business partners with them, like the Bush family.

Anyway, all I am trying say after all the political soapbox thing is that contrary to the way the current adminstration likes to frame the argument, I think there is another outlook which is not nearly so dire and gloomy. I think we can lick these sob's pretty easy, if we play the game smart and not stupid. And then it won't be a scenario of us at "war" for untold eons at all.

Combined with a different approach overseas to correct the anti-Americanism, we need not be worrying about terrorism much at all in a very short time.
08/10/2004 06:05:07 PM · #34
gingerbaker,

Not sure if you remember, but I was one of the very first to welcome you here to dpc. We had a brief exchange regarding your namesake and my memories of hours and hours of drum beats while in an "enlightened" state (many years ago).

The reference to "hundreds of years" was an attempt to acknowledege the Crusades, when Christian Knights went on a "conversion spree". Since then, it is my contention that Muslim and Christian relations have been strained....in essence, hundreds of years. With new news unfolding each day, I am being left with the impression that more and more fundamentalits are surfacing. This teaching that you acknowledge is occuring at the madras, has been ongoing way before Gulf I let alone Gulf II. Decades and even centuries (I believe).

I share your concern about Saudi Arabia, but I have not been comfortable with our relationship for over 20 years. More than just this administration. They have abused countless individuals (kidnapped women for Sheiks "amusement") and we have done nothing to address the loss of our citizens, forced against their will and "detained" in another country. This is a whole other issue which I will leave alone for now.

What I am struggling with at the moment is the continued attacks against world targets that openly refused to help us in Iraq. It is my belief that Al Queda cells have a different agenda than many believe. If the main cause of retribution was association with our "occupation", then why attack sites like the one in Turkey or other EU locations? If a historical ally is all that is required, then no one is safe from from the arm of Al Queda or its minions. Which is precisely what I believe. I am of the opinion, that reagrdless of ones politics, the intent of Al Queda and Fundamentalist Islam, is to rid the world of all non-muslims, much along the vein of the Crusades.

Another point that was raised in a conversation today, that I am comtemplating, is the apparent dilemna for those on the left that are less than gung ho for the destruction of Islamic Fundamentalism. The reason for my bewilderment is the values that many, not all, but many on the left hold dear; like a womans right to choose, equal rights for gays and lesbians, advancement of women in the workplace, equal rights for all etc. are at direct odds with the tennets of Islamic Fundamentalism. If the Islamic Fundamentalists were to conquer the world, then the values that the left hold so close would be the very first to be abolished. I am not sure of the soundness of this argument as it was just presented to me today. But I am considering it on its face, to be worthy of further evaluation.

Regarding the borders, I believe that they are way too porous and our inevitibility of attack is certain. With tribal lands in both Arizona and New York (I think, maybe it is Washington) acting as couriers for the illegals, we are very susceptible to receiving some very bad people. As I have stated before, lots of wrong has been done. The solution lies in what we do now.

Flash
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