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08/07/2004 09:01:09 PM · #1 |
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08/07/2004 09:13:23 PM · #2 |
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08/07/2004 09:13:44 PM · #3 |
I have seen that one before, a few times, and still love it every time.
It is a damn good reminder for what is going on now. You don't get to see those images anywhere in the mainstream, because they are afraid to show them (political crap, ya know), and that it is hard for alot of people. It only refreshes my convictions and feelings of patriotism.
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08/07/2004 09:24:20 PM · #4 |
I remember
first time in my life i felt that i was not safe.
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08/07/2004 09:25:41 PM · #5 |
| Thanks for posting - a moving tribute to an event that should continue to remind us all what we lost, and to give thanks for each day we have. |
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08/07/2004 09:40:42 PM · #6 |
| Thank you, David, for posting this reminder. The grim and ugly fact is that there are those among us here who do not care about others sacrifice. They spew ugly slanderous hate at the leaders of the United States of America for taking proactive and reactive action against terrorists. Some hide behind their faceless nameless personna and, most shocking, they are excused for their "ART" and because "they are obviously trying to make a statement." Or, "they may be a member of a less socially stable group." |
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08/08/2004 03:34:33 AM · #7 |
"Do you think the wound has healed?"
No, no I don't. How could it? In order to heal a wound requires tender treatment and a chance to mend. Instead any scab that tries to form is quickly ripped off, opening the wound anew. Each time infecting it with further fear and hatred that serves no purpose but to to further unrelated agendas.
Continued violence, blood and a cultivated fear ripping through our culture is not a fitting rememberance of anyone who lived their life to the fullest -- even if it was only for the instant in which they decided it was worth the cost to sacrifice it in the service of another.
A wound does not have to remain open, oozing with gangrenous bile, for the events surrounding it to be remembered and dealt with.
David
/edit: can't spell
Message edited by author 2004-08-08 03:36:49.
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08/08/2004 10:50:27 AM · #8 |
The images in the film are very moving, and it is good to remember that day, and to be reminded of the personal nature of its consequences. For sure.
I have a couple of problems with the film, however.
The first is that the quotes from the great forefathers of our country are used completely out of context here, and, I feel, inappropriately.
All these quotes were about our liberty and our freedoms - but they were said at the time to remind us to beware of the propensity of governments to usurp individual rights.
They were not about an attack on our nation or its people by an outside force.
I could not help but to be reminded of the irony that the quotes which were used, were in fact appropriate when used to examine what many consider the over-reaching actions of the Patriot Act.
Any freedoms we have lost because of 9/11 have been lost to our own government - and I did not want to think about THAT topic while watching the video - it should have been about the victims, I think.
The other problem I had with the film was the propaganda aspect which seemed hell-bent on fomenting anger and a desire for infliction of righteous vengeance.
While this is all well and good if it is used against the correct villians, I think too much of this kind of stuff has already been employed against people innocent of any conection to 9/11.
And that is what ticked me off - Bin Laden and Al Queda did 9/11 and then they were forgotton - Bush said he no longer cared about him. Well, I still remember him. I think we would all remember him if Iraq had not been forced into the picture. |
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08/08/2004 11:22:47 AM · #9 |
Powerful and compelling.
There are many points in our history that should be remembered likewise. The anhialation of native americans. The treatment of Irish immigrants. The Civil war. The concentration camps during WWII. The "rights" struggles of "AMERICANS" of color. Those that we chose to leave behind in Viet Nam. All of these serve to illustrate the kind of country we will live in, under an occupying (extremeist muslim)government. Regardless of OUR past sins, we simply cannot loose this war against these attackers. If we do, then the above mentioned shortfalls of our honor, will pale by comparison to our treatment as infidels. The Christian martyrs of early Rome will have had it EASY compared to what lies ahead if we fail to root out this evil. A window into the future is in Sudan, right now today. Be mindful of this time in History. We (america) have made some terrible choices throughout our short 200 years, but this is our opportunity to litterally "save the world". I pray we have the stomach to face those who would bound us into hell. |
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08/08/2004 01:19:09 PM · #10 |
| Just to put things in perspective, Here is a similar style video of Israel. (graphic, not suitable for children) |
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08/08/2004 02:06:24 PM · #11 |
| i remember...school picture day, freshman year. i know exactly where i was standing when i heard, but no one knew how serious it was right then. i know who told me...i know what i was wearing i know what i did the rest of the day. such a horrible day...and it is equally horrible that some people try to reduce it back down to some political argument over the current war in iraq |
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08/08/2004 04:07:06 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by gingerbaker:
The other problem I had with the film was the propaganda aspect which seemed hell-bent on fomenting anger and a desire for infliction of righteous vengeance.
While this is all well and good if it is used against the correct villians, I think too much of this kind of stuff has already been employed against people innocent of any conection to 9/11.
And that is what ticked me off - Bin Laden and Al Queda did 9/11 and then they were forgotton - Bush said he no longer cared about him. Well, I still remember him. I think we would all remember him if Iraq had not been forced into the picture. |
While I respect your right to state your feelings and opinion, when you state, as though it were FACT, that "Bush said he no longer cared about him ( Bin Laden )" I must protest. If you can provide credible evidence that Bush really said that, please provide it. If you cannot, then I respectfully request that you do not make statements to that effect.
And, just for clarification, just what "picture" was Iraq forced into that detracts from your ability to remember Bin Laden? My general feeling is that you mean Bush's response to the attacks of 9/11 - but then I remember that neither he nor anyone in his adminstration ever stated that the attacks on 9/11 were reasons for the war in Iraq.
Ron
Message edited by author 2004-08-08 16:08:13. |
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08/08/2004 04:16:02 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by RonB:
While I respect your right to state your feelings and opinion, when you state, as though it were FACT, that "Bush said he no longer cared about him ( Bin Laden )" I must protest. If you can provide credible evidence that Bush really said that, please provide it. If you cannot, then I respectfully request that you do not make statements to that effect. |
"Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
-George W Bush in Press Conference March 13, 2002
//www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
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08/08/2004 04:30:10 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by Flash:
We (america) have made some terrible choices throughout our short 200 years, but this is our opportunity to litterally "save the world". |
And how, may I ask, is the USA going to "save the world"?
I'm not defending either side here, but your statement sounds a bit like "muslim bashing". If not, sorry for my misinterpretation.
Or, you may be expressing your opposition to religious fundamentalism per say, be it muslim, christian, jewish or other. If that is the case, then I agree with you that fundametalism, under whatever religious or political form, can be perceived as an evil that has been the root of atrocities in the past and continues to be so to this day.
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08/08/2004 04:43:38 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by RonB:
While I respect your right to state your feelings and opinion, when you state, as though it were FACT, that "Bush said he no longer cared about him ( Bin Laden )" I must protest. If you can provide credible evidence that Bush really said that, please provide it. If you cannot, then I respectfully request that you do not make statements to that effect.
And, just for clarification, just what "picture" was Iraq forced into that detracts from your ability to remember Bin Laden? My general feeling is that you mean Bush's response to the attacks of 9/11 - but then I remember that neither he nor anyone in his adminstration ever stated that the attacks on 9/11 were reasons for the war in Iraq.
Ron |
As stated, he did say that, and rightly so. The objectives were clearly lined out when the organization responsible was targeted. The mastermind behind the 9/11 attack, and many others, was quickly found and Bin Laden's powerbase destroyed. It would have been great to have a more completely closure of the subject by getting him directly, but quite frankly he is of little importance without his organization around him. He is in hiding (if still alive) and is not worth the effort it would take to found out exactly where he is and what he is doing.
In all likelihood he died soon after the destruction of the powerbase of his organization. Seriously, if you were an 'officer' (for lack of a better term) in a terrorist organization and your leader organized and led an attack that resulted in a backlash that destroyed the power of the organization -- how long would you made this leader the target of your next attack? And would you announce to the world that there is new leadership?
The Al Queda are quite likely still out there, somewhere, but they have severed all ties to anyone that can be tracked and gone into hiding while they rebuild their powerbase. it will take years for them to rebuild, probably even decades, and in the meantime 'W' is not wasting time on them. He is concentrating on removing the attitude in the world that 'nothing can be done about terrorism'. When they get their power built back up they will find the world a much, much less passive target. That is assuming they can find funding (the kind of funding that takes national involvement) in this new, prepared world.
Thinking on the scale of global solutions instead of revenge for a specific incident and Bin Laden becomes fairly insignificant.
David
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08/08/2004 04:44:12 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by RonB:
While I respect your right to state your feelings and opinion, when you state, as though it were FACT, that "Bush said he no longer cared about him ( Bin Laden )" I must protest. If you can provide credible evidence that Bush really said that, please provide it. If you cannot, then I respectfully request that you do not make statements to that effect. |
"Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
-George W Bush in Press Conference March 13, 2002
//www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html |
Perhaps it's my glasses, but I can't see the word "CARE" anywhere in that quote. Perhaps you can find a quote that does?
Ron |
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08/08/2004 04:50:35 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by RonB:
While I respect your right to state your feelings and opinion, when you state, as though it were FACT, that "Bush said he no longer cared about him ( Bin Laden )" I must protest. If you can provide credible evidence that Bush really said that, please provide it. If you cannot, then I respectfully request that you do not make statements to that effect. |
"Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
-George W Bush in Press Conference March 13, 2002
//www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html |
Perhaps it's my glasses, but I can't see the word "CARE" anywhere in that quote. Perhaps you can find a quote that does?
Ron |
The terms 'concerned about' and 'care' are quite similar, is there some particular semantical meaning you are holding as particularly important in this instance?
David
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08/08/2004 05:04:53 PM · #18 |
Here is my everyday reminder of September 11, 2001. She was born at 12:26pm... shortly after the attacks...
She reminds me that life is precious and you should love those close to you everyday like it could be the last. You'll never regret telling those close to you how much you love them, but you would regret it everyday of your life if you didn't and lost them.
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08/08/2004 05:14:15 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Britannica:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by RonB:
While I respect your right to state your feelings and opinion, when you state, as though it were FACT, that "Bush said he no longer cared about him ( Bin Laden )" I must protest. If you can provide credible evidence that Bush really said that, please provide it. If you cannot, then I respectfully request that you do not make statements to that effect. |
"Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
-George W Bush in Press Conference March 13, 2002
//www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html |
Perhaps it's my glasses, but I can't see the word "CARE" anywhere in that quote. Perhaps you can find a quote that does?
Ron |
The terms 'concerned about' and 'care' are quite similar, is there some particular semantical meaning you are holding as particularly important in this instance?
David |
Yes, of course. It's this - if someone says that "Bush said...", then that person owes it to Bush to quote him accurately, rather than choose "similar" words that have certain connotations different than the words that were actually used. While 'concern' and 'care' DO share SOME of the same meanings, the connotation of not being 'concerned' is one of not being overly or obsessively worried, while the connotation of not 'caring' is one of not giving thought to, or having thoughts about, something, one way or the other. It is my understanding that Bush DOES 'care' about Bin Laden and the influence he still exerts on his followers, but is not 'concerned' about him - that is, is not overly or obsessively worried about him. I believe that Bush explained the reasons why he is not 'concerned'.
Ron |
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08/08/2004 05:38:54 PM · #20 |
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by RonB:
While I respect your right to state your feelings and opinion, when you state, as though it were FACT, that "Bush said he no longer cared about him ( Bin Laden )" I must protest. If you can provide credible evidence that Bush really said that, please provide it. If you cannot, then I respectfully request that you do not make statements to that effect. |
"Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
-George W Bush in Press Conference March 13, 2002
//www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html |
Perhaps it's my glasses, but I can't see the word "CARE" anywhere in that quote. Perhaps you can find a quote that does?
Ron |
This is a beautiful example of Ron and his word mincing as I call it. You are arguing on semantics, the meaning was the same.
Here is thesaurus.com's meaning of "care":
Entry: care
Function: noun
Definition: concern
Synonyms: affliction, aggravation, alarm, anguish, annoyance, anxiety, apprehension, bother, burden, chagrin, charge, consternation, discomposure, dismay, disquiet, distress, disturbance, encumbrance, exasperation, fear, foreboding, fretfulness, handicap, hardship, hindrance, impediment, incubus, load, misgiving, nuisance, onus, oppression, perplexity, pressure, responsibility, solicitude, sorrow, stew, strain, stress, sweat, tribulation, trouble, uneasiness, unhappiness, vexation, woe, worry
Source: Roget's New Millenniumâ„¢ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
As you can see Ron, you are arguing the wrong point. |
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08/08/2004 06:45:25 PM · #21 |
No word mincing. This is a perfect example of all the Bush bashers infering meaning into a quote which isn't there.
If my daughter is out with friends at night, in a location that I know is safe, I might say I'm not concerned about her safety. Does that mean I don't care about her? Of course not. How stupid a leap of logic that would be.
Likewise, the context of Bush's quote is that Bin Laden's command influence has been weakened, and he's not concerned with him on a daily basis. There's no connection with whether he care's that Bin Laden is captured or pays for what he's done.
It's so disheartening to have to quible over such stupid, intentional misinterpretations of quotes as this. There will never be a useful dialog in this country with this kind of assinine behavior. |
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08/08/2004 06:46:03 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Originally posted by RonB:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by RonB:
While I respect your right to state your feelings and opinion, when you state, as though it were FACT, that "Bush said he no longer cared about him ( Bin Laden )" I must protest. If you can provide credible evidence that Bush really said that, please provide it. If you cannot, then I respectfully request that you do not make statements to that effect. |
"Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
-George W Bush in Press Conference March 13, 2002
//www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html |
Perhaps it's my glasses, but I can't see the word "CARE" anywhere in that quote. Perhaps you can find a quote that does?
Ron |
This is a beautiful example of Ron and his word mincing as I call it. You are arguing on semantics, the meaning was the same.
Here is thesaurus.com's meaning of "care":
Entry: care
Function: noun
Definition: concern
Synonyms: affliction, aggravation, alarm, anguish, annoyance, anxiety, apprehension, bother, burden, chagrin, charge, consternation, discomposure, dismay, disquiet, distress, disturbance, encumbrance, exasperation, fear, foreboding, fretfulness, handicap, hardship, hindrance, impediment, incubus, load, misgiving, nuisance, onus, oppression, perplexity, pressure, responsibility, solicitude, sorrow, stew, strain, stress, sweat, tribulation, trouble, uneasiness, unhappiness, vexation, woe, worry
Source: Roget's New Millenniumâ„¢ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.
As you can see Ron, you are arguing the wrong point. |
While I applaud your wish to become involved in a discussion that you were not previously involved in, I feel that I must point out that your reply relies on a thesaurus entry for the NOUN 'care' and not the VERB 'care'. Neither the word 'concerned' in President Bush's remark, nor the word 'care' in Gingerbaker's (mis)quote of Bush were of the NOUN variety.
Concern to try again? ( or should that be CARE to try again? - I'm so confused now ).
Ron
Message edited by author 2004-08-08 19:00:38. |
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08/08/2004 07:24:48 PM · #23 |
Can someone remind me what the link was in the first post? I've FORGOTTEN.
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08/08/2004 07:59:28 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
Originally posted by Flash:
We (america) have made some terrible choices throughout our short 200 years, but this is our opportunity to litterally "save the world". |
And how, may I ask, is the USA going to "save the world"?
I'm not defending either side here, but your statement sounds a bit like "muslim bashing". If not, sorry for my misinterpretation.
Or, you may be expressing your opposition to religious fundamentalism per say, be it muslim, christian, jewish or other. If that is the case, then I agree with you that fundametalism, under whatever religious or political form, can be perceived as an evil that has been the root of atrocities in the past and continues to be so to this day. |
Beagleboy,
I was concerned at the time of posting on how the term "save the world" would come accross. I thought that with the prefaced reference to Sudan and the follow up sentence of the address of avoiding bondage in hell, that it may have been clear. However I will take this opportunity to attempt to make it clearer.
This thread was originally begun with regard to remembering 9/11. I feel that the author of the video produced a compelling piece. I also believe that there are other extremely sad times in our history where we were not specifically the victim but the aggressor, and I list many examples; native americans, immigrants, asian encampments in WWII, and so on. I continue with the truism that we have indeed sinned ourselves, HOWEVER, that prior sin does not excuse us from our present opportunity to address an international evil (muslim extremeism). They have been gearing up for decades while the world dismissed them as bothersome but not worth a confrontation. Certainly not worth the political price to be paid by spending billions of dollars and countless lives to stop the "possible" threat. 9/11 changed that for america. But many places (like Sudan) are being victimized by the Jangeweed. Raping girls (women too) but 10, 11, and 12 year old girls in the public square, as villigers watch in horror. Girls with limbs amputated so that they cannot run, then raped, repeatedly. 30,000 killed and close to a million expected to be killed by years end. This is happening right now. Today, tonight, tomorrow. The international community is AGAIN, wanting more time. Tell that to the little girl. Or the next thousand little girls. We can't help you because we needed to pass another resolution. We can't help you because it would appear as an act of pre-emption. We can't help you because at this time, you are not important enough-politically. So instead, we will watch while you get slaughtered. But we will speak out on how horrible it is that you have been mutilated and raped.
At least give them the means to defend themselves.
Sorry got a bit off there. The "save the world" statement was intended to address the lack of action on the part of much of the world community. "Lead the world" would have been a better choice of words in hindsight. I believe that the US must lead as we did in Kuwait, Afganistan, Iraq, Phillipines, Korea, and will probably do in Iran. It is not muslim bashing as I have no quarrel with any faith. Just those of "An Extreme" faith that will fly planes into a pair of towers, or send suicide bombers to blow up civilians, or forever scar young girls.
We must be prepared for a LONG tenuious struggle. The enemy is implanted deep. Those that hate you because of your ethnicity, religion or country of origin have no intention of letting YOU go. It has nothing to do with Iraq. They have hated you for hundreds of years. You are an Infidel. Unworthy of salvation. Worse than dung. The only hope for you is death. At least then you will be out of your misery. The allies of al queda have become vast and varried. Partners that 20 years ago would have been enemies. But for a short time, they will stomach each other for a greater purpose. We too must stomach each other, for if we do not stand together, we will surely hang separately.
It is this cause that I hope the link will inspire. To always remember the sins of our past so that we may be forgiven and do the present work at hand. Identify and eliminate those bent on destroying us.
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08/08/2004 10:06:17 PM · #25 |
Flash, I wish everyone had as good an understanding as you have presented here. After viewing the origional link and the one posted by MadMordegon how can anyone not understand that there are those who will die to destroy everyone who is not of their belief.
Message edited by author 2004-08-08 22:07:48. |
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