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02/09/2012 12:19:37 AM · #1 |
What if when we changed the way we vote.
So for example if you give a vote under 5, the only way to leave the vote there is to comment on why you think the photo is worth 4 or under.
Also everyone's votes will show up on the photo when the challenge is over, this will totally eliminate trolls and will make the whole competition fare.
I mean who wants to see themselves look bad with the un-fair votes they hand out.
I don't know how it will be implemented, but I guess  Langdon can work that out.
So what do you think? I've been discouraged sometimes by what I feel is a good photo, and then just receiving an average 5 score, I mean who wants average. This plan if implemented will lift the average score on here to maybe 6.1 to 6.3 instead of boring 5.40.
Whose for it?? |
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02/09/2012 12:26:38 AM · #2 |
It's not a good idea at all IMO. We have enough troubles as it is, without encouraging people to gang up on anyone who votes outside the herd. And you may be certain that is what would happen.
R.
ETA: Plus, on reflection, I've decided I'm going to agitate in favor of a proposal that anyone who gives a score of 8 or higher on an image be required to comment explaining why s/he thinks the picture's all that... Because, I swear, I totally can't understand how so many relatively mediocre images get high scores across the board (some of my own included) while truly wonderful, thought-provoking images get hammered.
I say, if you like something enough to vote it to the top, you should be prepared to justify your enthusiasm!
Message edited by author 2012-02-09 00:30:03.
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02/09/2012 12:34:03 AM · #3 |
In fact there was a time when we were reminded, at giving a 3 or less, that a comment was recommended.
The thing is no one wants to discourage voting or commenting by restrictions.
But I know what you mean about the fives. I was very discouraged by all the 5's I got recently, and nary a 1! The gold is in the 3's and 4's. The thing is, ALL numbers are good if you know how to calculate. |
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02/09/2012 12:36:25 AM · #4 |
I did a poll a few months back asking people how they voted. Out of 88 replies over 40% said they voted a scale of 1 to 5. And of the 40%, 77% said they only voted on 20% to 50% of the entries. If this is true, I find it discouraging! If a person is going to vote on a 1-5 scale, so be it, but vote on 100% of the entries to make it fair.
So a 4 to one of the 1-5 scale voters would be equivalent to an 8 in there judgement.
I for one vote the 1-10 scale that way if I don't vote on 100% of the entries it's still fair.
I know this may not be the reply you were looking for but I thought I would through it out. It kind of explains why some votes come in lower than a 5.
These are not troll voters but voters that have a style of there own; good or bad.
Message edited by author 2012-02-09 00:58:48.
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02/09/2012 12:38:05 AM · #5 |
I'd be less inclined to vote honestly if I knew that, come the end of the challenge, everyone knows what I voted. I'd be a lot nicer, sometimes to an undeserving shot. So yes, the average score would increase, but that would just mean that then you'd strive for a 7.5 instead of a 6.5, because 6.5 might be "average".
I try to comment on photos that I give lower scores to, to tell them why, and I tend to express my excitement about an above average photo that I've voted in my top 10 or so. I should focus on commenting on the "average" photos as well, perhaps saying what it is that makes them average in my eyes or what would've pushed them over the edge. I wouldnt be totally against HAVING to comment on lower scored photos, but I think that will encourage one of two things - pointless comments (which would "out" a user as a low voter being forced to comment) or people voting at the minimum so they don't have to comment. |
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02/09/2012 12:39:12 AM · #6 |
Out of 88 replies over 40% said they voted a scale of 1 to 5.
That's astonishing, honestly, who are these people, I'd love to know.
Message edited by author 2012-02-09 00:40:21. |
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02/09/2012 12:41:09 AM · #7 |
Originally posted by SDW:
I did a poll a few months back asking people how they voted. Out of 88 replies over 40% said they voted a scale of 1 to 5. And of the 40%, 77% said they only voted on 20% to 50% of the entries. If this is true, I find it discouraging! If a person is going to vote on a 1-5 scale, so be it, but vote on 100% of the entries to make it fair.
So a 4 to one of the 1-5 scale voters would be equivalent to an 8 in there judgement. |
Why would anyone vote on a scale of 1-5 when the scale given is 1-10?? How hard is it to vote on a scale of 1-10? That's just stupid... if they find a truly outstanding photo that they can't fault, they're gonna give it an essential "meh" vote, which would be equal to one of my lowest votes...
I always vote on 100% of the challenge, figured it's only fair to do so lol |
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02/09/2012 12:47:33 AM · #8 |
Originally posted by Neat:
Out of 88 replies over 40% said they voted a scale of 1 to 5.
That's astonishing, honestly, who are these people, I'd love to know. |
I do not know who they are. I did an anonymous poll. No names or user_IDs were recorded.
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02/09/2012 12:51:41 AM · #9 |
2/09/2012 12:47:33 AM · #8
Originally posted by Neat:
Out of 88 replies over 40% said they voted a scale of 1 to 5.
That's astonishing, honestly, who are these people, I'd love to know.
I do not know who they are. I did an anonymous poll. No names or user_IDs were recorded.
It was actually a rhetorical question.....lol
Such dishonesty, makes me sick. |
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02/09/2012 01:05:40 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by SDW:
I did a poll a few months back asking people how they voted. Out of 88 replies over 40% said they voted a scale of 1 to 5. And of the 40%, 77% said they only voted on 20% to 50% of the entries. If this is true, I find it discouraging! If a person is going to vote on a 1-5 scale, so be it, but vote on 100% of the entries to make it fair.
So a 4 to one of the 1-5 scale voters would be equivalent to an 8 in there judgement.
I for one vote the 1-10 scale that way if I don't vote on 100% of the entries it's still fair.
I know this may not be the reply you were looking for but I thought I would through it out. It kind of explains why some votes come in lower than a 5.
These are not troll voters but voters that have a style of there own; good or bad. |
The key to my stats taken from the poll is highlighted above in bold. This is not scientifically accurate at the very least since one person could have entered the poll more than once and could have put in false information. Personally I don't think that many voters use the 1-5 scale and the ones that do, more than likely, vote 100% to make it fair.
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02/09/2012 01:41:40 AM · #11 |
I'm totally with Robert on this one. Everybody complains about low votes because they believe the voter "doesn't get it" or that the photographer is a glorious artiste that has not been realized yet. This is all poppycock when nobody gives the slightest question to high votes.
We have enough witchhunts for low voters now, I can only imagine what it'd be like if we had what is essentially a DPC Blacklist released after every challenge.
So what if I don't like your photo?
Also, I have a feeling that people would be MORE apt to post negative critiques if they weren't greeted with the witchhunts and negative private messages that result from opening their mouth because of an entitled entrant failing to accept that maybe their photo just isn't as wonderful as they thought. |
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02/09/2012 02:09:10 AM · #12 |
I don't think making anyone comment because of their vote would make a positive difference. And I don't think we could achieve a fairer voting system than what we have now. Is it perfect, NO. But it is what it is.
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02/09/2012 02:28:11 AM · #13 |
Originally posted by Neat:
Out of 88 replies over 40% said they voted a scale of 1 to 5.
That's astonishing, honestly, who are these people, I'd love to know. |
I always vote on a scale of 1-5
I vote 1 if I think it should come in first place, 2 for second, 3 for third, etc down to 10 for the really bad ones & I never leave comments.
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02/09/2012 02:38:02 AM · #14 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
ETA: Plus, on reflection, I've decided I'm going to agitate in favor of a proposal that anyone who gives a score of 8 or higher on an image be required to comment explaining why s/he thinks the picture's all that... Because, I swear, I totally can't understand how so many relatively mediocre images get high scores across the board (some of my own included) while truly wonderful, thought-provoking images get hammered.
I say, if you like something enough to vote it to the top, you should be prepared to justify your enthusiasm! |
Couldn't agree more!! |
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02/09/2012 03:31:26 AM · #15 |
this is on a similar vain to school removing winners and loosers to not offend children everyones a winner for taking part, bollocks to that.
you submit your photo for voting and it gets voted on, changing the scale etc or affecting the vote in anyway is pointless, whats the point in teh average being 6.5 when the winner is getting 9's
if you look back through older photos they scored a lot higher than images nowadays and that lower scoring in my case anyway inspired me to take better photos to progress my scores higher
yeah good photos finish low and sh1t photos win but thats life, thats the voting scheme and its a popularity contest more than a photo contest, which photo do people like the best.
as for 88% of respondents using the 1-5 scale i like the Guinness advert quote about 88.6234% of statistics are made up on the spot.... thats not a jibe at sdw but i find that result incredulous and the only way would be if the site used to have a 1-5scale then migrated to 1-10 and ppl felt stuck in their ways. theres no way a new users would choose to use a 1-5 scale when the 1-10 scale is on the photo. i think a proper per user anoymous poll would be better, i vote on teh 1-10 scale and i think ive given 6 or so 10 in 6 months i reserve them for the crem de le crem.
i dont get all these abstracts or photos the posthumous pose persistently fawn over
i think recent threads criticising comments as being uniformed have been unhelpful and resulted in less comments.
yeah its frustrating to have a good image come low down in the voting and you look through and think how did that finish higher than mine etc but just take it as motivation to keep trying
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02/09/2012 03:35:18 AM · #16 |
My recommendations:
- Stop voting altogether
- Viewing an entry requires a comment, enforced by freezing up the viewer's PC until they leave one
- All comments (good or bad) must be justified by a second, explanatory comment
- Everyone gets a "Participation" award. ...even if you didn't enter
- We all have to drink 4 shots at rollover ...except if you are under 13 or are actively in rehab
eta:
Alternatively, my suggestion would be to live, let live, enter, vote and comment as each of us sees fit and be content with the outcomes.
Message edited by author 2012-02-09 03:37:36. |
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02/09/2012 03:52:16 AM · #17 |
| Probably enforcing comments below 5 and above 8 would squeeze most people into the 5-7 range where they feel safe and anonymous, and not have to make more of an effort. I like the concept of promoting comments, thanks Anita & Robert for your commitment to a solution. Perhaps if on our personal profile page there was a progressive bar chart breakdown of how we are scoring, just like the breakdown of score on your individual challenge entries. At the moment we have individual vote cast as a single sum, I'm suggesting a progressive bar chart 0-10, 0 being a non voter. |
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02/09/2012 04:02:01 AM · #18 |
a much better idea would be the top 5 have to but a bit of info in their about box, annoys me when its just n/a
people like christoph put excellent explanations of why, how etc the image came about others just have n/a disappointing to say the least |
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02/09/2012 04:03:10 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by daisydavid:
Probably enforcing comments below 5 and above 8 would squeeze most people into the 5-7 range where they feel safe and anonymous, and not have to make more of an effort. I like the concept of promoting comments, thanks Anita & Robert for your commitment to a solution. Perhaps if on our personal profile page there was a progressive bar chart breakdown of how we are scoring, just like the breakdown of score on your individual challenge entries. At the moment we have individual vote cast as a single sum, I'm suggesting a progressive bar chart 0-10, 0 being a non voter. |
There is a stat shown when you vote on each challenge: "You have voted on X entries with an average score of X.XX" - those two numbers being on a user's profile for each challenge voted on would be beneficial and might curb those who vote down other entries in challenges they enter.
Message edited by author 2012-02-09 04:03:31. |
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02/09/2012 06:24:28 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Alternatively, my suggestion would be to live, let live, enter, vote and comment as each of us sees fit and be content with the outcomes. |
+1 :)
Perhaps this will sound silly, but I have a feeling that any successful attempt at having a large part of voters raising their votes will not change the results at all, just the average vote cast. |
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02/09/2012 07:13:15 AM · #21 |
| Do you really want 50 comments that says your photo is blurry or dnmc or is boring? If I don't like my scores, I try to take better photos. |
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02/09/2012 07:24:03 AM · #22 |
My prediction is that the number of fives handed out would soar. Fives are a problem already. I've been working for years to get my average below a five. And I'm almost there.
Thumbs down to this idea.
Message edited by author 2012-02-09 07:24:19. |
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02/09/2012 07:25:33 AM · #23 |
Originally posted by cloudsme:
Do you really want 50 comments that says your photo is blurry or dnmc or is boring? If I don't like my scores, I try to take better photos. |
and thats why I often don't comment on all the ones I score low... I get sick of saying I just dont find the photo interesting lol. And thats not necessarily something the photographer has done wrong, thats just my personality and things that appeal to me may not appeal to other people... it's not a very helpful comment lol |
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02/09/2012 07:26:45 AM · #24 |
I say we get rid of all 4-6 votes :)
For me a 1-3 shows that I either missed the mark completely, entered a dnmc or, more likely, entered a shot that caused a reaction and they hated it which is better then a 4,5 or 6 vote. As far as 8-10 that shows it was either appreciated on a technical or emotional level. The middle votes are the ones I feel the image fails at, imho. But I agree with what most of the others are saying. We don't want to turn people away from voting, it is already down quite a bit as it is. If anything I would rather see an increase in the 20% minimum to either 75-80% or even 90% required but then again that may turn voters away but it may even out things as well. |
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02/09/2012 07:45:20 AM · #25 |
I don't get some points about this conversation, what I like someone else could hate, so the scoring system isn't about anyone's subjective opinion about a photo. So saying terrible photos wins and great photos lose - well, what you are really saying is photos you liked lose, and photos you disliked win. It is not the same thing.
In reference to the voting scale, I think the 1 to 10 scale is a time-tested and globally familiar, and shouldn't be changed at all just because some people can't follow instructions. What is so hard about 10=you liked it 1= you hated it. Maybe there needs to be more clear, prominent instructions, because writing "BAD" next to 1, and "GOOD" next to 10 (I dislike that wording, because it implies the persons subjective opinion is what makes something good or bad, I'd prefer "LIKE" or "DISLIKE") isn't enough clear enough for some people.
I'd suggest rather than changing the voting system, consider changing the way you interpret it. The vast majority of people seem to vote on a 3-8 scale, with a few outliers in the 1-2 and 9-10 range. Winning entries typically get 7 to 8 - so if that is what you get, be very happy. If you get a six, be happy. You can't please (or displease) everyone all the time, so stop trying. Just please yourself and hope it pleases others, too.
Maybe a solution to the 'not enough comments' issue is to have a check-box that says "request comments" and then in the voting stage, it will show that the submitter requested comments. Presumably this would encourage people to give comments, good or bad, because the submitter asked for them explicitly.
A relevant aside: Some points I learned trying to get published in short fiction:
-Critical comments make us better, but only if they resonate with you or if they have a critical mass. If one person says something is wrong, it is an opinion. If ten people say you did something wrong, it is a fact.
-A rhino-hide skin makes you better because the sting of criticism bounces off, leaving you to see the constructive part of constructive criticism.
- Literary criticism makes the harshest photographic criticism feel like a walk through the park on a sunny day, for me at least.
Message edited by author 2012-02-09 07:53:53. |
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