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12/28/2011 02:17:06 PM · #1 |
Hi
I haven't been here for long, but would like to get more involved and would like to start "critizising" photographs (voting on the challenges). More to give *myself* a chance to learn about what makes a good picture and what doesn't. I have been doing some searches across the forum and have been reading some very interesting, heated discussions about voting criterias and "scores" given :).
I am a qualified judge in sporting and "semi-sporting" disciplines and we always work to a very clear set of criteria. If I understand everything I have read here correctly, this is not the case for voting/scoring the challenges. Am I right? So everyone has their own set of criteria, which they hopefully apply across the board? There is nothing to say that technical is equal to/higher/lower in importance to artistic? In fact there is nothing saying that both artistic and technical have to be taken into consideration? There is nothing to say how much if anything postediting scores? I gather that not being on topic may or may not influence the score, depending on who you ask?
Are there ANY guidelines anywhere on how photographs are scored? How are photographs evaluated/scored in "official Salons"? Is there the same lack of criteria?
I don't want to start an argument - not at all. I am trying to understand this rather ... loose? ... way of evaluating items in a single "class" (Challenge) which can be so dramatically different from each other. For a new person this makes voting on a challenge extremely daunting ... just dish out numbers as you see fit??? That seems very unfair towards the photographer. Without criteria personal favorite scenes/compositions/techniques will then always score higher, simply because "I can" :-). Alternatively themes that I don't find particularly interesting will "automatically" score lower? Surely judging such a difficult medium as photography requires some type of guidelines or score sheets to try and make it as fair as possible?
I am genuinely puzzled ...
Think I may stick to *taking* pictures rather than scoring them :-)
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12/28/2011 02:26:57 PM · #2 |
The bulk of members seem to vote along a somewhat loose set of guidelines, but there really is no fixed criteria against which to judge. The only real generalizations that can be made are in regards to what I call "the collective". Technicals seem to count for the most, but there are exceptions. Many people (myself included) give extra weight to the capture of a moment that resonates with them. I tend to vote on the generous side, and my vote for the average shot is a 6. Others who feel a given shot is equally good may call that a 5. Then there's a few folks who just toss a 3 at anything that fails to get their attention within 3 seconds.
You'll just have to figure out your own system, but using a 5 or 6 for the average shot (Not great, but now bad either) is a good place to start. Commenting on others entries is probably the best way to improve your own photography, as well as becoming familiar with other members here. By making yourself analyze why you do or do not like a photo, you will learn things you can apply to your own photography. Just be diplomatic in your critiques.
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12/28/2011 02:48:55 PM · #3 |
Originally posted by kasaba:
So everyone has their own set of criteria, which they hopefully apply across the board? |
This is correct -- as long as you apply the same criteria to every photo the results will be a fair representation of the collective evaluation.
The other thing which will help make the voting fair is to vote on the pictures in the order they are presented if you cannot vote on all of the entries, rather than picking and choosing specific pictures from the thumbnails page ("cherry-picking"). Each voter gets their own random distribution of pictures, so that they all end up getting the same number of total votes, even if some people only vote on some of the images -- note that you must vote on a minimum of 20% of the pictures or your votes will be discarded.
If you want to improve your own photography, I second  Yo_Spiff's suggestion that you comment on as many pictures as possible, particularly ones you sort-of like but feel are missing "something" ... the act of analyzing and articulating those issues will later be incorporated into (and hopefully improve) your own work.
Remember to offer your comments as your opinion -- people almost universally dislike being told they did something "wrong" when what you don't like may have been their main point in making/posting the picture. "I would prefer this if it was a bit lighter" will go over better than "too dark" or "you should have increased the exposure time for this" ...
There are some tutorials on commenting/feedback under the Learn menu.
There are also plenty of threads regarding commenting available for your entertainment (if not enlightenment) ... ;-) |
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12/28/2011 02:49:32 PM · #4 |
Oops, the General and I were typing at the same time, and he beat me to the punch.
I second third the practice of putting comments on the photos you are voting on. I think it causes a voter to put a bit more thought into their vote, and spend a bit more than 2 seconds evaluating the image. I learn by commenting, and hopefully the photographer will too. Sometimes a comment will help the photographer understand what is causing a low or high score, even if it doesn't teach him/her something.
At one time there was a pop-up message suggesting you comment when you give a score of <4. This was to encourage voters to state ways the photo could be improved. That didn't seem to help, because it was just ignored. The idea is still good though. It's not very nice to slam a low score on someone without an explanation.
Message edited by author 2011-12-28 14:56:38. |
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12/28/2011 03:02:51 PM · #5 |
| You can find plenty of guidelines in the forums regarding how to vote. However, most conflict with each other. So, you will have to find your own set of guidelines that you are comfortable with. Some use a more rigid checklist, others vote with their heart, and I suspect most are somewhere in between. The fact that everyone does not use the same rubric to vote may not seem fair, but that̢۪s life when it comes to creative pursuits like photography. Your votes certainly do not need to align with the general consensus. |
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12/28/2011 03:03:28 PM · #6 |
| Best thing I ever did was something pretty simple... do one challenge (or more if you have the time) and comment on 100% of the images. Here is the catch... say something that you don't like about the image. For example say I like this... but I would like to have seen this. See what I mean? Hope that helps. :) |
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12/28/2011 03:23:25 PM · #7 |
excellent advice by all...
the only thing i would add is to also keep an eye on the challenge-specific threads, particularly the "pre-submission" threads, as this will give an idea of how the "collective" may be understanding the challenge description, and help you to decide what is going to be DNMC (Does Not Meet Criteria) for you.
while i would agree that the "technical" aspects of a shot seem to be given more weight in general, there are a lot of photographers and voters who like the "catch the moment" entries, too (which may lack some in composition, focus, "set-up"-ness).
for my own voting, i see i generally agree with the collective on the Top 10 maybe only 20-30% of the time.
-mefnj |
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12/28/2011 04:01:12 PM · #8 |
There are no rules in scoring a photograph. It will always be a subjective system, different for each individual. You need to develop one that suits your own likes/dislikes.
I googled "how to critique a photo" and the top find is the best I came across:
//www.pixiq.com/article/doing-a-photo-critique
I like this statement:
"remember that there̢۪s no right or wrong in photography. Gross technical errors (vast exposure problems, for example) can be universally wrong, but artistic considerations are not universal."
PS I personally do not use the DPC "weapon" called DNMC but that's a personal preference.
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12/28/2011 04:20:00 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by mefnj:
excellent advice by all...
the only thing i would add is to also keep an eye on the challenge-specific threads, particularly the "pre-submission" threads, as this will give an idea of how the "collective" may be understanding the challenge description, and help you to decide what is going to be DNMC (Does Not Meet Criteria) for you.
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This I disagree with. Who cares what everybody else really thinks? That's what their vote is for. My vote is my vote. Your vote is your vote. A vote is the method we have to give salutations to that which we enjoy, where we want the aesthetic of DPC to be directed. Vote how you wish and do it proudly, critics be damned.
All voting does is give a numerical value to a reaction we will automatically and inherently have. To deny this is and cede it to another is to deny the validity of your own reaction and interpretation.
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12/29/2011 03:11:03 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by MargaretN:
I googled "how to critique a photo" and the top find is the best I came across:
//www.pixiq.com/article/doing-a-photo-critique
PS I personally do not use the DPC "weapon" called DNMC but that's a personal preference. |
Thank you for this link, very useful, especially the links within it to other aspects of photo critique.
From that blog the following statement, and that is perhaps the point I was trying to make:
>Personally, I have a strong affinity for tightly cropped black and white photos. I >have a friend who loves to do landscapes in colour, and I find it really difficult >to give him useful critiques, because it’s not my style of photographyâ€Â¦
So, assume I follow the "guideline" given by the author, point 1 in his criteria, just "looking" at a portrait normally makes me fall asleep already ;-) - no fault of the photo, I just find people photography extremely boring. Can I "force myself" to look at it and look at the technical aspect of it? Well sure I can. And I can say that one portrait, IMO, is better than another one. But at the end of the day, without "set criteria" and only going on "my" feeling, a macro shot with mediocre technique will always "win" over a fairly good portrait. Thats NOT FAIR. Not fair to the photorapher(s), who get scored by a bunch of people on their own "likes" (not to mention new ones like me who don't even know what I am doing to start off with!). Do "numbers" really even out those discrepancies? I.e if enough people vote on a challenge, will the portrait fans and the macro fans "level out" the playing field?
Hmmm .. this is an interesting field I have set foot in :-)
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12/29/2011 05:17:33 AM · #11 |
Thank you to everyone for replying and giving your advise. I wouldn't have thought that "writing a comment" would be that useful, but I can see now that this is really a good way to put my own thoughts about photography into order (oh dear, is it photography, or photographs? ;-)).
Apologies to everyone who's photos I will be critiquing to start with - I know its *me* learning, not *your* pictures that will be at fault :-(.
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12/29/2011 06:10:49 AM · #12 |
It's bad advice. This analytical approach is leaden, dull and formulaic and it will shrink your horizons at the very moment when you should be stretching them: your photographic adolescence.
Far more useful, for you and for the authors of works you'll be commenting on, is a non-analytical approach.
And there is a brilliant little insight into non-analytical (or more accurately nonjudgemental) appreciation of photographs right here at DPC.
The only thing wrong with it is the inclusion of the term 'beginners' in the title; it's good advice for 'experts' too. Maybe especially so. |
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12/29/2011 06:42:00 AM · #13 |
| for me i look through and its a moment thing if it wows me and makes me pause, elicits an emotion or more detailed studying then it scores well, if not its meh! 5 or sometimes if a photo offends me it gets scored lower but i try to comment why i didnt like it, and i comment on photos i like as well. worst thing you can get is a 5.3-5.5 no comment photo no one loved it no one hated it...... |
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12/29/2011 07:02:53 AM · #14 |
II just scanned this, instead of reading it carefully, but it's 5 am, so I'm too sleepy.
It looks like you are getting some wonderful advice, but one thing really jumped out: I think you're being far too dismissive of the styles you don't like.
If you're trying to learn, simply dismissing a portrait because you don't like portraits is wasting a wonderful opportunity. Start looking more closely. You'll probably find that therre are a few portraits that you might like. They may be few and far between, at first. But why did those few catch your eye? What do they have that the others are missing?
I use voting as an opportunity to expand my tastes and my horizons. If you simply vote down genres that don't appeal to you, you wont learn much.
When I first started, my nemesis was abstracts. I had no interest in them. I thought they were extremely unappealing, and they looked like they were taken |
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12/29/2011 07:06:37 AM · #15 |
Bah!
I'm typing this on a phone, and it's doing weird things, so I can't finish my thoughts. |
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12/29/2011 11:49:07 AM · #16 |
i find commenting helps my photography more than voting does.
instead of just brushing off an image with a score it forces me to figure out and describe what i like or dislike about an image. it helps me to not make the same mistakes they did or keeps in my head a way to try something in the future.
i try to comment at least 10 percent on challenges i vote on as a personal goal.
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12/29/2011 12:30:04 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
i try to comment at least 10 percent on challenges i vote on as a personal goal. |
I share this personal goal and urge others to do the same. I also take it one step further and after the challenge is over, I review all of the entries I made comments on to see what others saw. That has probably been the biggest source of my photography improvement. |
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12/29/2011 01:24:54 PM · #18 |
Kasaba:
You left simply the best comment I ever got on a current entry, i cant imagine you doing that in every challenge. It was more of a critique of my image and than a comment. You pointed out a major oversight that i missed.
Thank you.
If you are looking for advice on how to vote, you dont need any. |
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12/29/2011 01:34:43 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by kasaba:
Not fair to the photorapher(s), who get scored by a bunch of people on their own "likes" (not to mention new ones like me who don't even know what I am doing to start off with!). Do "numbers" really even out those discrepancies? I.e if enough people vote on a challenge, will the portrait fans and the macro fans "level out" the playing field? |
This is why you have to evaluate the success of your entry on more than the numeric average the collective gives you. Look at things such as the comments, WHO commented, what the commenter's average is. Did the shot exceed your expectations for it? As an example, my recent entry in the metal challenge was a total success for me, despite being a mid pack score. This was a quick and lazy shot while I was out riding my bike, and it also pulled in some positive comments from people whose opinions I respect. If I'd really tried, and went shooting specifically for this challenge, I could have certainly done much better.
Message edited by author 2011-12-29 13:35:10.
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12/29/2011 01:49:32 PM · #20 |
agree, i rate an image i have on the number of comments it gets, more than its score.
If someone takes the time to comment on an image it usually resonates with them somehow. |
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12/29/2011 03:20:25 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by ubique:
It's bad advice. This analytical approach is leaden, dull and formulaic and it will shrink your horizons at the very moment when you should be stretching them: your photographic adolescence. |
Not everyone has artistic ability. A lot of DPC members have technical background (myself included). I like some consistency and rationale in my thinking, especially if I have to quantify and qualify my non-analytical reaction (score the image and comment on it). |
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