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11/22/2011 09:41:56 AM · #76 |
Originally posted by JH:
I had this debate again last night with an 'anti-protestor' - It left me feeling that we're being carefully led into an 'us versus them' mindset. Us, the law-abiding citizens, being inconvenienced by these tent-dwelling hippies blocking our roads and monuments.
Anyway, the suggestion was put to me; 'why can't the protestors go and protest somewhere where they won't affect anyone?' - Yeah, I'm sure we can bus them out to the nearest national park or nature reserve where they can set up their tents and protest to their heart's content. |
Only in this case, the protesters were students protesting higher tuition on campus. |
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11/22/2011 09:44:51 AM · #77 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by JH:
I had this debate again last night with an 'anti-protestor' - It left me feeling that we're being carefully led into an 'us versus them' mindset. Us, the law-abiding citizens, being inconvenienced by these tent-dwelling hippies blocking our roads and monuments.
Anyway, the suggestion was put to me; 'why can't the protestors go and protest somewhere where they won't affect anyone?' - Yeah, I'm sure we can bus them out to the nearest national park or nature reserve where they can set up their tents and protest to their heart's content. |
Only in this case, the protesters were students protesting higher tuition on campus. |
Exactly - And it was that group of protestors we were talking about. But whether it's the OWS or the student protestors, they've been painted the same way; as an inconvenience. And they've been dealt with the same way; They didn't follow orders, so had to be moved. |
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11/22/2011 09:55:09 AM · #78 |
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by sfalice:
I am so very sorry to see this happen. I wish I knew what to do to make sure it never happens again.
Ideas? |
Hmmm, it's a longshot, but I think if they had moved when the police ordered them to....... |
bingo. be careful ken, you're speaking common sense. |
Okay, gentlemen. You have given your first response.
Remember, they've already said "please" for some ten years now.
Got any other ideas how these kids can get their point across?
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11/22/2011 09:58:52 AM · #79 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by sfalice:
I am so very sorry to see this happen. I wish I knew what to do to make sure it never happens again.
Ideas? |
Hmmm, it's a longshot, but I think if they had moved when the police ordered them to....... |
bingo. be careful ken, you're speaking common sense. |
Okay, gentlemen. You have given your first response.
Remember, they've already said "please" for some ten years now.
Got any other ideas how these kids can get their point across? |
I actually have a great idea, the thing is you can't get people to do what you want. LOL! If all 1st & 2nd year students withdrew from 4 year colleges and went to a community college, it would wreck havoc on those "fine" institutions. Sure, you're still forced to go to one for 3rd & 4th year, but they'd be losing tuition from millions of students for those two years. This might just force some price changes. |
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11/22/2011 11:35:22 AM · #80 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by sfalice:
I am so very sorry to see this happen. I wish I knew what to do to make sure it never happens again.
Ideas? |
Hmmm, it's a longshot, but I think if they had moved when the police ordered them to....... |
bingo. be careful ken, you're speaking common sense. |
Okay, gentlemen. You have given your first response.
Remember, they've already said "please" for some ten years now.
Got any other ideas how these kids can get their point across? |
I actually have a great idea, the thing is you can't get people to do what you want. LOL! If all 1st & 2nd year students withdrew from 4 year colleges and went to a community college, it would wreck havoc on those "fine" institutions. Sure, you're still forced to go to one for 3rd & 4th year, but they'd be losing tuition from millions of students for those two years. This might just force some price changes. |
The problem isn't necessarily with the universities, it's with the government choosing to fund other things like wars and bank bailouts instead of higher education. |
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11/22/2011 11:47:26 AM · #81 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by sfalice:
I am so very sorry to see this happen. I wish I knew what to do to make sure it never happens again.
Ideas? |
Hmmm, it's a longshot, but I think if they had moved when the police ordered them to....... |
bingo. be careful ken, you're speaking common sense. |
Okay, gentlemen. You have given your first response.
Remember, they've already said "please" for some ten years now.
Got any other ideas how these kids can get their point across? |
Disclaimer: When I lived in California, my wife worked for the UC system. Therefore I am subjec to some bias.
The problem is, like many problems, a complex problem that defies simple 25 words or less solutions.
For three years running, she received a zero pay raise. Why? It was to try to keep the budget down, to minimize the increase in tuition. My wife was not a 100K a year employee, she was a $10 an hour employee; who was asked to accept a zero raise to save students money. I also understand the position of the students. Nobody likes price increases, especially massive increases in a short period of time. At the same time, should the budget really be balanced on the backs of the lowest earners? So where should the money come from? The State doesn't have the money. There are plenty of other progams that need funding. Are the students a special class that should be at the head of the line? With the current economy, do we raise taxes on the masses, so that a student can have a cheaper education?
I'm not trying to paint the students as villans either. They do have a right to protest. They have a right to question. The answer may be that there is no other way to pay for their education. Sometime the answer is no. But I don't think the answer to a peaceful protest should be a can of mace in the face. |
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11/22/2011 11:47:31 AM · #82 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by sfalice:
I am so very sorry to see this happen. I wish I knew what to do to make sure it never happens again.
Ideas? |
Hmmm, it's a longshot, but I think if they had moved when the police ordered them to....... |
bingo. be careful ken, you're speaking common sense. |
Okay, gentlemen. You have given your first response.
Remember, they've already said "please" for some ten years now.
Got any other ideas how these kids can get their point across? |
I actually have a great idea, the thing is you can't get people to do what you want. LOL! If all 1st & 2nd year students withdrew from 4 year colleges and went to a community college, it would wreck havoc on those "fine" institutions. Sure, you're still forced to go to one for 3rd & 4th year, but they'd be losing tuition from millions of students for those two years. This might just force some price changes. |
The problem isn't necessarily with the universities, it's with the government choosing to fund other things like wars and bank bailouts instead of higher education. |
Really? //www.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/education/02college.html
eta: that one above is a bit outdated... //chronicle.com/article/College-Presidents-Salaries/63874
Gordon Winston, emeritus professor of economics and political economy at Williams College:
I have little doubt that some university presidents are caught up in the same salary-as-self-respect lust as the bankers we̢۪re hearing so much about these days. Sure, they run complicated and demanding organizations and most of them could have made more money in the for-profit sector, but that̢۪s not where they are. They̢۪re part of a community whose mission and dedication and satisfactions have to do with something more than, and different from, profits. And whatever their impact in the world at large, outsized presidential salaries have corrosive effects within their communities. There once was an idea that a college̢۪s president should make about twice what its average full professors did (as professors, not as clinical practitioners or football coaches or consultants). That seems to me a reasonable and community-based target for boards to aim at. More than that suggests presidential values inconsistent with their jobs.
Message edited by author 2011-11-22 11:52:25. |
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11/22/2011 12:03:20 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by sfalice:
I am so very sorry to see this happen. I wish I knew what to do to make sure it never happens again.
Ideas? |
Hmmm, it's a longshot, but I think if they had moved when the police ordered them to....... |
bingo. be careful ken, you're speaking common sense. |
Okay, gentlemen. You have given your first response.
Remember, they've already said "please" for some ten years now.
Got any other ideas how these kids can get their point across? |
I actually have a great idea, the thing is you can't get people to do what you want. LOL! If all 1st & 2nd year students withdrew from 4 year colleges and went to a community college, it would wreck havoc on those "fine" institutions. Sure, you're still forced to go to one for 3rd & 4th year, but they'd be losing tuition from millions of students for those two years. This might just force some price changes. |
The problem isn't necessarily with the universities, it's with the government choosing to fund other things like wars and bank bailouts instead of higher education. |
Really? //www.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/education/02college.html
eta: that one above is a bit outdated... //chronicle.com/article/College-Presidents-Salaries/63874
Gordon Winston, emeritus professor of economics and political economy at Williams College:
I have little doubt that some university presidents are caught up in the same salary-as-self-respect lust as the bankers we̢۪re hearing so much about these days. Sure, they run complicated and demanding organizations and most of them could have made more money in the for-profit sector, but that̢۪s not where they are. They̢۪re part of a community whose mission and dedication and satisfactions have to do with something more than, and different from, profits. And whatever their impact in the world at large, outsized presidential salaries have corrosive effects within their communities. There once was an idea that a college̢۪s president should make about twice what its average full professors did (as professors, not as clinical practitioners or football coaches or consultants). That seems to me a reasonable and community-based target for boards to aim at. More than that suggests presidential values inconsistent with their jobs. |
I don't disagree, but cuts to funding for education certainly play a large role. |
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11/22/2011 02:11:50 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by JH:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by JH:
I had this debate again last night with an 'anti-protestor' - It left me feeling that we're being carefully led into an 'us versus them' mindset. Us, the law-abiding citizens, being inconvenienced by these tent-dwelling hippies blocking our roads and monuments.
Anyway, the suggestion was put to me; 'why can't the protestors go and protest somewhere where they won't affect anyone?' - Yeah, I'm sure we can bus them out to the nearest national park or nature reserve where they can set up their tents and protest to their heart's content. |
Only in this case, the protesters were students protesting higher tuition on campus. |
Exactly - And it was that group of protestors we were talking about. But whether it's the OWS or the student protestors, they've been painted the same way; as an inconvenience. And they've been dealt with the same way; They didn't follow orders, so had to be moved. |
None of this should come as any surprise. We've been devaluing people for a long long time. Expressing biogtry and hatred over some hippies at home is just a drop in the bucket compared to the countless lives we've destroyed overseas with our version of the crusades. The fact that there isn't a continuous thread on our wars just goes to prove how much we really care (left and right) about our fellow man. |
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11/22/2011 02:17:19 PM · #85 |
| I do love how these clean cut, well dressed students become "hippies" and shiftless leaches on society the moment they sit down to protest. |
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11/22/2011 03:35:08 PM · #86 |
If you don't agree with me, you're a dirty, lazy, moocher, who is less than human and deserves to be beaten, gassed, and arrested.
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
I do love how these clean cut, well dressed students become "hippies" and shiftless leaches on society the moment they sit down to protest. |
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11/22/2011 04:32:21 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by yanko:
None of this should come as any surprise. We've been devaluing people for a long long time. Expressing biogtry and hatred over some hippies at home is just a drop in the bucket compared to the countless lives we've destroyed overseas with our version of the crusades. The fact that there isn't a continuous thread on our wars just goes to prove how much we really care (left and right) about our fellow man. |
yes, but/and every drop in the bucket hurts. history has always been a game, employing a chilling algebra.
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11/22/2011 05:35:21 PM · #88 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
The problem isn't necessarily with the universities, it's with the government choosing to fund other things like wars and bank bailouts instead of higher education. |
Ah yes, but wars are good for the economy.
Ray |
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11/22/2011 05:37:06 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
The problem isn't necessarily with the universities, it's with the government choosing to fund other things like wars and bank bailouts instead of higher education. |
Ah yes, but wars are good for the economy.
Ray |
So far, not true. Unless you're Halliburton. |
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11/22/2011 05:49:29 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
The problem isn't necessarily with the universities, it's with the government choosing to fund other things like wars and bank bailouts instead of higher education. |
Ah yes, but wars are good for the economy.
Ray |
So far, not true. Unless you're Halliburton. |
Trust me, wars and the toys needed to engage in them, the logistics associated with the moving of personnel and equipment and the rest of a myriad of other factors are directly responsible for a host of contracts.
The economics related to the defence industry stagger the mind.
Ray |
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11/22/2011 05:56:22 PM · #91 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Spork99:
The problem isn't necessarily with the universities, it's with the government choosing to fund other things like wars and bank bailouts instead of higher education. |
Ah yes, but wars are good for the economy.
Ray |
So far, not true. Unless you're Halliburton. |
Trust me, wars and the toys needed to engage in them, the logistics associated with the moving of personnel and equipment and the rest of a myriad of other factors are directly responsible for a host of contracts.
The economics related to the defence industry stagger the mind.
Ray |
Well, it hasn't done shit for the economy here. We have: record unemployment, bank bailouts, the poor getting poorer, etc. |
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11/22/2011 06:02:47 PM · #92 |
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by Spork99:
Originally posted by Kelli:
Originally posted by sfalice:
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by sfalice:
I am so very sorry to see this happen. I wish I knew what to do to make sure it never happens again.
Ideas? |
Hmmm, it's a longshot, but I think if they had moved when the police ordered them to....... |
bingo. be careful ken, you're speaking common sense. |
Okay, gentlemen. You have given your first response.
Remember, they've already said "please" for some ten years now.
Got any other ideas how these kids can get their point across? |
I actually have a great idea, the thing is you can't get people to do what you want. LOL! If all 1st & 2nd year students withdrew from 4 year colleges and went to a community college, it would wreck havoc on those "fine" institutions. Sure, you're still forced to go to one for 3rd & 4th year, but they'd be losing tuition from millions of students for those two years. This might just force some price changes. |
The problem isn't necessarily with the universities, it's with the government choosing to fund other things like wars and bank bailouts instead of higher education. |
Really? //www.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/education/02college.html
eta: that one above is a bit outdated... //chronicle.com/article/College-Presidents-Salaries/63874
Gordon Winston, emeritus professor of economics and political economy at Williams College:
I have little doubt that some university presidents are caught up in the same salary-as-self-respect lust as the bankers we̢۪re hearing so much about these days. Sure, they run complicated and demanding organizations and most of them could have made more money in the for-profit sector, but that̢۪s not where they are. They̢۪re part of a community whose mission and dedication and satisfactions have to do with something more than, and different from, profits. And whatever their impact in the world at large, outsized presidential salaries have corrosive effects within their communities. There once was an idea that a college̢۪s president should make about twice what its average full professors did (as professors, not as clinical practitioners or football coaches or consultants). That seems to me a reasonable and community-based target for boards to aim at. More than that suggests presidential values inconsistent with their jobs. |
Speaking of wars and education, the Naval Academy's football head coach makes $1.1 million a year or $92k per game. They must play Al-Qaeda each week. |
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11/22/2011 08:00:11 PM · #93 |
| wars are NOT good for the economy. they are good for the coffers of the FEW. the Bush family coffers have benefited for generations. the trickle down effect participates fully in the meanness of it all. |
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11/22/2011 10:59:46 PM · #94 |
I wish someone could/would propose a solution so that kids could get an education
at a good state university or college without mortgaging their futures.
Presently they cannot and after years of asking the folks in charge to please fix the problem,
they demonstrate, peaceably, but still, demonstrate. Making a disturbance.
Upsetting the status quo. And some get severely punished with painful sprays along with some
folks saying, in essence, that they deserved it and should go home.
Is there a magic elixir? Is there a rational solution to this serious problem?
We have certainly defined it thoroughly in this thread. What is the next step? Is there one? |
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11/22/2011 11:44:40 PM · #95 |
Mr. Gingrich had a simple answer. Go take a bath and get a job.
Sadly as the recent failure of the "Super Committee" has shown, there is such a gulf between the viewpoints that we will just drift along the path we are on without the help of government.
The UC system is a great example of the issues that result in that schism. From it's founding in 1860's through the 1960's the system was largely paid for by the state, allowing the best applicants to get a great education without concern of their ability to pay. This was seen as a public good, and that educating the most able students would make the state wealthier, rather than only educating the children of the wealthy. Since 1980 when fees cost a student under $648 a year to last year when tuition was $7,473 and this year it is $9,811. Tuition is now greater than state support, and given the $500,000,000 cut to the UC system from the state, there is no probability that the trend will change. Public support for public education will continue to be gutted as long as we hold the private enterprise system as the exemplar. If we continue to cut taxes (prop 13 kicked this cycle off) then we are a car with brakes, but no ignition, and the UC system, and the state as a whole will just drift to the side of the road, and the world will pass us by. |
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11/23/2011 09:43:15 PM · #96 |
Today, I heard of a sign posted about the UC Davis debacle.
"Riot gear is for Riots. Not for camping without a permit."
 BrennanOB's summation of the situation is probably the only viable response to the question
of how to solve this problem.
If the "Please may we ..." and the "peaceable nonviolent demonstrations" are not effective,
then what?
Truly, What next? |
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