| Author | Thread |
|
|
09/15/2011 08:53:58 AM · #1 |
I just read this article about a disappearing test they do in England, the 11-plus
//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7773974.stm
Take the test that families still waste $2000+ to prepare their children for! Fail this idiotic exam and so much for your future.
This is one bizarre test to choose who you educate or do not! I really can not see much use as a indicator of ability, intelligence or a test on any useful life skills.
It always amazes me what cultures and societies will grab onto as if it is the golden ring that will guarantee success, and weed out the failures.
Sadly when you use a illogical and foolish ruler to measure, or worse, educate your students, you end up with generations of unprepared people.
The measure of a fisherman should not be how colorful his hat is, it should be how many fish he catches, the hat has nothing to do with anything - i.e. it is a foolish test.
Message edited by author 2011-09-15 08:55:20. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 09:10:41 AM · #2 |
never mind.
Message edited by author 2011-09-15 09:14:19. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 09:21:30 AM · #3 |
I don't have a problem with tests, they are a measure if ones ability to retain knowledge. Are they the best way, maybe not, but its the best we have and most encompassing. The bigger problem is not in the tests but in the propose of these tests. More increasingly people are seen as unsuccessful in life if they are uneducated at a higher level. Higher education isn't for everyone and skill trades aren't for everyone. To consider a person unsuccessful because they chose one over ther other or have the ability to do one over is not right and is what needs to change.
The result if this pushing people to higher education over physical labors has created a society where we now have an overabundance one one and not enough of another, compounding our unemployment problem. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 09:34:56 AM · #4 |
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
I just read this article about a disappearing test they do in England, the 11-plus |
Not a good start, you've quoted an article that's 3 years old, about a system that mostly died out over 30 years ago.
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
Fail this idiotic exam and so much for your future. |
Much like exams today.
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
This is one bizarre test to choose who you educate or do not! I really can not see much use as a indicator of ability, intelligence or a test on any useful life skills... - i.e. it is a foolish test. |
So rather than complaining about a system that mostly doesn't exist any more, what is your solution to the problem?
ps. I scored 14 out of 15, so maybe I would have gone to gammar school, had there been any around when I was 11 back in 1974 |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 10:05:00 AM · #5 |
| Um... the article even states the 11 plus isn't relevant any more. God forbid you read an article on Victorian workhouses next =). |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 10:07:42 AM · #6 |
Sorry if it was an old article, the web like to put old stuff up as if it is new news. That popped up on the BBC.com today.
I am all for knowledge, love education and science, but this seems a test to find code breakers as if WWII was still on going IMHO.
It seems to me that it would be as if baseball knowledge was the measure tested to get into medical university.
I never studied in a society with a strict pass fail wall. The tests I have done for school are both the SAT's and GRE's, both are on a scale, not pass fail.
I know some european countries and many asian ones do it pass fail, but its foreign and foolish to me. I test well, so I'll pass.
For a solution that would be better I would test basics of science, understanding of the physical laws of physics, biology and mathematics.
The world is much more interesting and less frightening and magical when you understand the concepts and the math behind our everyday lives.
From seeing the parabola of a suspension bridge to understanding the system of refrigeration that keeps us cool and our food fresh or the reason a plane can fly.
That would be my focus for education. A solid base that a person can go on to discover new ground from. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 10:09:04 AM · #7 |
| you guys make me feel just a bit like Fred... |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 10:12:28 AM · #8 |
| The questions are very similar to those you find on iq test, the purpose of the 11 plus I believe is/was more for testing aptitude than knowledge - which in many ways I think would be a lot fairer at this age. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 12:02:43 PM · #9 |
This test is still VERY much a current thing. My son has his on November 12th.
The difference in educational opportunity that cascades from his success/failure is astounding. If he passes he'll get into the 7th best co-educational non-fee paying school in the country. A full 7% of their output go to Oxford or Cambridge.
If he fails he'll go to an OK (for the area) school that, across the board, will see 37% lower achievement in grades over the school described above.
That's before we talk about the different facilities, environment and peer group.
Non-selective schools CAN do a really great job with smart kids, but these selective schools DO do a really great job with smart kids.
Of course, this is all contestable when we consider what success is; but the facilities are also much. much better... |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 01:20:51 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
From seeing the parabola of a suspension bridge ... |
The curve of a suspension cable is a catenary, not a parabola. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 01:24:15 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
This test is still VERY much a current thing. My son has his on November 12th.
The difference in educational opportunity that cascades from his success/failure is astounding. If he passes he'll get into the 7th best co-educational non-fee paying school in the country. A full 7% of their output go to Oxford or Cambridge.
If he fails he'll go to an OK (for the area) school that, across the board, will see 37% lower achievement in grades over the school described above.
That's before we talk about the different facilities, environment and peer group.
Non-selective schools CAN do a really great job with smart kids, but these selective schools DO do a really great job with smart kids.
Of course, this is all contestable when we consider what success is; but the facilities are also much. much better... |
Correlation does not imply causation.
Is it possible that the kids who score better are brighter and thus more inclined to be "successful" while those that aren't are bound for lower "success"?
Just becuase a student gets into a better school doesn't necessarily make them bound for great things and likewise not getting in doesn't doom one to failure.
if a school only accepts students of higher aptitude it may well be that the teaching methods materials are stricter and do not allow much time for struggles. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 01:27:09 PM · #12 |
| Absolutely that's the case. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 01:28:00 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
From seeing the parabola of a suspension bridge ... |
The curve of a suspension cable is a catenary, not a parabola. |
actually the shape of a suspension cable on a bridge is a parabola.
edited for semantics.
Message edited by author 2011-09-15 13:32:05. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 01:35:06 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by amsterdamman:
From seeing the parabola of a suspension bridge ... |
The curve of a suspension cable is a catenary, not a parabola. |
actually the shape of a suspension cable on a bridge is a parabola.
edited for semantics. |
See definition #1:
Catenary: n.
1. Mathematics . the curve assumed approximately by a heavy uniform cord or chain hanging freely from two points not in the same vertical line. Equation: y  = k cos h ( x / k ).
2. (in electric railroads) the cable, running above the track, from which the trolley wire is suspended.
The catenary and parabola are quite similar in shape, but not the same. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 01:38:06 PM · #15 |
if the suspension cables weren't supporting the bridge deck it would be a catenary shape.
a suspension cable hanging under its own weight and one one supporting a distributed load have different geometries. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 01:43:53 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
if the suspension cables weren't supporting the bridge deck it would be a catenary shape.
a suspension cable hanging under its own weight and one one supporting a distributed load have different geometries. |
OH SNAP!
|
|
|
|
09/15/2011 02:42:48 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
if the suspension cables weren't supporting the bridge deck it would be a catenary shape.
a suspension cable hanging under its own weight and one one supporting a distributed load have different geometries. |
I guess my prize-winning* haiku is garbage then ... :-( 
*Fourth-Place ribbon in the Poetry/Haiku division at the Marin County Fair |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 03:10:22 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
I guess my prize-winning* haiku is garbage then ... :-(
*Fourth-Place ribbon in the Poetry/Haiku division at the Marin County Fair |
If it makes you feel better, Galileo supposedly thought that free hanging cables were parabolic. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 04:19:08 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by mike_311:
if the suspension cables weren't supporting the bridge deck it would be a catenary shape.
a suspension cable hanging under its own weight and one one supporting a distributed load have different geometries. |
I guess my prize-winning* haiku is garbage then ... :-(
*Fourth-Place ribbon in the Poetry/Haiku division at the Marin County Fair |
Caternary just hangs free
Parabolic holds
The geometry changes
|
|
|
|
09/15/2011 04:42:24 PM · #20 |
Approximations of parabolae are also found in the shape of the main cables on a simple suspension bridge. The curve of the chains of a suspension bridge is always an intermediate curve between an parabola and a catenary, but in practice the curve is generally nearer to a parabola, and in calculations the second degree parabola is used.[8][9] Under the influence of a uniform load (such as a horizontal suspended deck), the otherwise hyperbolic cable is deformed toward a parabola. Unlike an inelastic chain, a freely-hanging spring of zero unstressed length takes the shape of a parabola.
So kinda both right. And neither.
Just like with the OP's issue with test. Wrong test used as an example, but his point is correct, just as valid as the silly tests my daughter is preping for which will decide what colleges she will get into. |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 05:03:03 PM · #21 |
Originally posted by BrennanOB:
Approximations of parabolae are also found in the shape of the main cables on a simple suspension bridge. The curve of the chains of a suspension bridge is always an intermediate curve between an parabola and a catenary, but in practice the curve is generally nearer to a parabola, and in calculations the second degree parabola is used.[8][9] Under the influence of a uniform load (such as a horizontal suspended deck), the otherwise hyperbolic cable is deformed toward a parabola. Unlike an inelastic chain, a freely-hanging spring of zero unstressed length takes the shape of a parabola.
So kinda both right. And neither.
Just like with the OP's issue with test. Wrong test used as an example, but his point is correct, just as valid as the silly tests my daughter is preping for which will decide what colleges she will get into. |
we keeping making remarks to silly tests, but how else are the schools supposed to know if you will be able to handle the work load? just becuase you get good grades does not mean you have retained the knowledge? |
|
|
|
09/15/2011 05:10:11 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
we keeping making remarks to silly tests, but how else are the schools supposed to know if you will be able to handle the work load? just becuase you get good grades does not mean you have retained the knowledge? |
The reason we keep using them, despite the random knowledge the tests measure, is that they are a pretty good indicator who will do well on the random tests in college. I hear parents say "My kid is smart, they just don't test well" and I think to myself, good luck in college then. Testing well may not indicate who will do well in life, but it is pretty important through college. |
|
Home -
Challenges -
Community -
League -
Photos -
Cameras -
Lenses -
Learn -
Help -
Terms of Use -
Privacy -
Top ^
DPChallenge, and website content and design, Copyright © 2001-2025 Challenging Technologies, LLC.
All digital photo copyrights belong to the photographers and may not be used without permission.
Current Server Time: 08/20/2025 01:28:37 AM EDT.
