Software qualification - legal or not

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

06/15/2011 11:11:45 PM · #26

Originally posted by Judi:

Originally posted by yanko:
I think the SC are doing us a favor. It's allowing us the opportunity to get off the bullet train to tackyville.

Yup...I agree with you there. We all go through the tacky stage one time or another but while they may look good for your own wall...they usually don't sit well in photo challenges. I would prefer to see plain standard borders or no borders at all. Very few images suit a border.

If they decided to implement a rule that allowed no borders, I would be happy to comply - although Ben is right, thst is not the point of this discussion. In fact, I don't use borders on most of my images anyway. But this preset happened to work for this image and it came with the border. And I did not adjust it's size I just accepted the default.
Unless SC had another reason for the DQ., and nobody has gotten back to me yet but i know I didn't add anything else to the image, this has to be reviewed since there is clearly anothr entry that passed validation using the same preset. I don't get it.

But just as important as my own review, going forward something needs to change with the rules so that this doesn't happen to someone else. Because it will.

Judi

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

06/15/2011 11:31:01 PM · #27

So sorry for sidetracking the thread!

06/15/2011 11:32:32 PM · #28

Originally posted by Judi:

So sorry for sidetracking the thread!

it's okay. I just want to stick to the issue because it's important for everyone, IMO.

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

06/16/2011 08:54:05 AM · #29

I'm bumping this thread for the morning crew in case anyone else wants to chime in with suggestions regarding the rules on plug in use (specifically NIK but I suppose it could be anything) and how we know what's legal and what's not before we submit.
Thanks.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

06/16/2011 09:07:03 AM · #30

I'm careful when using presets because some of the could include things that are challenge illegal, such as vignetting for a basic editing challenge. As long as I stay away from that, fancy borders and selective editing tools, plugins are just fine for basic.

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

06/16/2011 09:32:40 AM · #31

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:

Two things....you mentioned for basic editing. How about for advanced?
And are you comfortable with "I'm careful" or do you think you should know for sure before entering whether or not what your doing is legal? My contention is that somehow the rules should be clear.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

06/16/2011 09:44:33 AM · #32

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Two things....you mentioned for basic editing. How about for advanced?

For advanced, almost anything these plugins can do is ok, as long as I am not creating new image elements.

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

And are you comfortable with "I'm careful" or do you think you should know for sure before entering whether or not what your doing is legal? My contention is that somehow the rules should be clear.

I'm pretty comfortable with my understanding of what is and is not legal. I've had a few entries validated at this point and only once got a DQ. It was pretty early on and was not for violating an editing rule.

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

06/16/2011 09:45:19 AM · #33

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

Originally posted by Yo_Spiff:
I'm careful when using presets because some of the could include things that are challenge illegal, such as vignetting for a basic editing challenge. As long as I stay away from that, fancy borders and selective editing tools, plugins are just fine for basic.

Two things....you mentioned for basic editing. How about for advanced?
And are you comfortable with "I'm careful" or do you think you should know for sure before entering whether or not what your doing is legal? My contention is that somehow the rules should be clear.

While I agree that there is less clarity than is possible in the current rules (lots of room for improvement), the rules can never be so cut-and-dried that there is no room for interpretation. Asking to "know for sure" implies that there is no room for interpretation, for questions.

Yo_Spiff implies that we must actually read and understand the rules, and ask ourselves if the tool we are using performs a function that is outside the rules for the challenge we are intending to submit to. I don't think that's too much to ask.

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

06/16/2011 09:50:39 AM · #34

Basically, from what I've found, if the preset includes a border, do not include the border in your submission. Some software lets you unclick "the frame" (such as time machine in psp), others have sizing (such as filter forge, where you can turn it to zero). I don't have Nik so I couldn't say what your options are there. If it doesn't let you exclude the frame, then crop it out before you do your final resizing. That way you can still get the look, without the part that's going to get you dq'd. I do agree though that there needs to be some kind of consistency. I've seen plenty of borders that were irregular pass validation while others get called out and dq'd.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

06/16/2011 09:59:34 AM · #35

My DQ was in advanced editing. I have not received clarification yet but got the "adding clip art" message. The only thing I added was a Nik silver preset. Yellowed I.
Yes NIK would have let me remove the border but since I have seen and heard others mention that they were validated with the borders in advanced, I didn't think it was a problem.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

06/16/2011 10:56:29 AM · #36

You can turn the border off in Nik, sure. It has an on/off switch and several customizable adjustments as well.

BUT THAT ISN'T THE ISSUE!

The issue here is that the very same preset/border combo was previously validated. And I, myself, have entered a bunch of images in challenges that use Nik borders, because early on I sent one in for review and was told it would "probably pass", then I saw that Wendy's image with the Nik border has passed validation. None of mine have even been called up for validation.

People, I *LIKE* these borders. Some may think they are "tacky", but so be it; they closely resemble borders I used to create in the film days. I feel seriously restricted, sometimes, by the need to delimit my images with a precise, rectilinear edge treatment; a lot of the time I like soft/torn/blurry edges, that soften the transition between image and surround. So it's important to me, and to some others, that we know whether or not this stuff is gonna be deemed legal.

This thread exists because the DQ is an apparent contradiction; and that's the ONLY reason it exists. We need to be told whether or not Nik border effects are legal. It makes no sense to sometimes validate them and soemtimes not.

Of course, maybe we're all wet; maybe the DQ was for some other reason altogether; but if so, how come nobody in authority has TOLD us that?

I long for the day when a DQ message will include something specific appended to the canned response, along the lines of "In this case, your border was deemed to have crossed the line into clip art." Or whatever...

R.

Message edited by author 2011-06-16 10:57:36.

vawendy

Sony Alpha 1

Sony FE 200-600mm f/5.6-6.3 G OSS

06/16/2011 11:46:47 AM · #37

I assume this dq is on the current challenge?

I'd PM

Scalvert or

GeneralE to see if they can clear it up. If it is for the border, it shouldn't be a DQ if previous ones were validated.

I'm a little concerned at the lack of response -- perhaps it was lost?

yanko

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

06/16/2011 12:05:37 PM · #38

Originally posted by vawendy:

I assume this dq is on the current challenge?

I'd PM Scalvert or GeneralE to see if they can clear it up. If it is for the border, it shouldn't be a DQ if previous ones were validated.

I'm a little concerned at the lack of response -- perhaps it was lost?

Curious, when it was validated earlier was the SC told exactly how the border was created? Maybe they didn't see it as clip art because the editing steps were vague or they simply didn't know enough about the plugin being used at the time? Either way the SC should clarify the ruling.

Message edited by author 2011-06-16 12:06:33.

Tamron AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II for Canon

06/16/2011 01:13:07 PM · #39

In my editing steps I stated exactly which preset I used.
I have sent two emails asking for clarification and/or re-evaluation but I have not had a response yet.
Hopefully I will.

jamesgoss

Canon EOS-400D Rebel XTi

06/16/2011 04:38:15 PM · #40

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

In my editing steps I stated exactly which preset I used.
I have sent two emails asking for clarification and/or re-evaluation but I have not had a response yet.
Hopefully I will.

I think they're busy, I sent a clarification question two days ago and haven't gotten back to yet. They're usually semi-prompt.

06/16/2011 06:02:11 PM · #41

Originally posted by jamesgoss:

Originally posted by PennyStreet:
In my editing steps I stated exactly which preset I used.
I have sent two emails asking for clarification and/or re-evaluation but I have not had a response yet.
Hopefully I will.

I think they're busy, I sent a clarification question two days ago and haven't gotten back to yet. They're usually semi-prompt.

Still nothing. It's happened to me before that I've written and never got a response back at alll so I'm not holding my breath.

sfalice

Canon PowerShot SX60 HS

06/16/2011 07:28:27 PM · #42

I wonder if the SC members are doing a re-review.
That could explain why the delay.
I see only one SC is on line right now.

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

06/16/2011 07:41:17 PM · #43

that would be nice.

You know ... I've not been home. I was out late at a company function last night and I worked all day today so I didn't get a chance to re-look at my original, try it again with the processing and compare it to the other image that passed. But I am now ONE HUNDRED PERCENT (100%) POSITIVE that I used the same preset as Wendy - hers was a high key picture and mine is low key in comparison but it's the same button. And that's IT. That's all I did.

If that's the reason for my DQ (and it has to be because that's virtually all I did except the normal basic stuff), it's totally wrong that they validated one and not the other.

Judi

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

06/16/2011 07:55:15 PM · #44

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

It depends on which SC are voting on the image. Each SC member is an individual with different opinons. Therefore they can make differing decisions. But I agree that there should be an across the board rule.

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

06/16/2011 08:28:12 PM · #45

I think there should be a standard list that they all share so that whoever picks up the validation request knows what has been okay'd before and what hasn't.
And if there were a list, it could be shared with us (hence the reason for this thread in the first place)!

edited to add: hint hint... is there a suggestion box someplace??
could someone like me help with an excel spreadsheet fot something like this?

Message edited by author 2011-06-16 20:36:23.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

06/16/2011 11:27:42 PM · #46

Originally posted by PennyStreet:

edited to add: hint hint... is there a suggestion box someplace??
could someone like me help with an excel spreadsheet fot something like this?

It's been "suggested" a gazillion times before. Sometimes at considerable length and in great detail. It hasn't happened yet, though :-(

R.