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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> Fate or Butterfly Effect?
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 05/20/2011 11:42:40 PM · #1
Ok...do you believe in Fate or the Butterfly Effect.

Example:

A boy fails the 9th and 11th grade. He's two years behind. In his senior year, he meets a freshman and they begin to date. They marry 10 years later and have a child. One day, the child is walking to high school. One of his friends is driving past and looks out the window waving and yelling. He takes his eyes off the road and hits ANOTHER kid - killing him.


If this person would NOT have failed those years in high school, would the car have NOT hit the kid - killing him? (Butterfly Effect)

OR

Would the kid have been killed by the car regardless of if the person passed or failed school? (FATE)
 05/20/2011 11:46:41 PM · #2
(Ecclesiastes 9:11) 11 I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all. . .
 05/20/2011 11:53:44 PM · #3
Stuff happens... Of all the years and intervening decisions that were made, to pick one as the cause is nonsensical.
 05/20/2011 11:57:28 PM · #4
So would this kid have been killed?

Originally posted by ambaker:
Stuff happens... Of all the years and intervening decisions that were made, to pick one as the cause is nonsensical.
05/21/2011 12:08:02 AM · #5
There is no way to tell, except to unravel time and replay the event. In your illustration things played out the way they did. If something in the chain changed, the further back in time, the harder it would be to hazard a guess. If everything were pure cause and effect, then it should be predictable as to who will get hit by a car in another 26 years. But it isn't. So there is no way to say if one thing changes in such a long series of events, will an outcome be different.

When we toss a coin, whether the next toss comes up heads or tails is the same odds no matter how many times it may have come up heads or tails in a row previously. The coin has no memory of the last toss and doesn't know how it "should" come up.

The parents could have met in another way, there could have been a different driver, or a different friend. Or not. No way to tell.
 05/21/2011 12:20:40 AM · #6
Just the thought of fate is so depressing, I would vote for any other option.
 05/21/2011 12:22:04 AM · #7
You can thank me later for keeping you at the computer for a few minutes. You may have gotten up and broke your leg otherwise !

Originally posted by ambaker:
There is no way to tell, except to unravel time and replay the event. In your illustration things played out the way they did. If something in the chain changed, the further back in time, the harder it would be to hazard a guess. If everything were pure cause and effect, then it should be predictable as to who will get hit by a car in another 26 years. But it isn't. So there is no way to say if one thing changes in such a long series of events, will an outcome be different.

When we toss a coin, whether the next toss comes up heads or tails is the same odds no matter how many times it may have come up heads or tails in a row previously. The coin has no memory of the last toss and doesn't know how it "should" come up.

The parents could have met in another way, there could have been a different driver, or a different friend. Or not. No way to tell.
05/21/2011 12:22:38 AM · #8
I like your take on it !

Originally posted by robs:
Just the thought of fate is so depressing, I would vote for any other option.
05/21/2011 12:24:13 AM · #9
Originally posted by robs:
Just the thought of fate is so depressing, I would vote for any other option.


Why?
 05/21/2011 12:26:25 AM · #10
Originally posted by ambaker:
Stuff happens... Of all the years and intervening decisions that were made, to pick one as the cause is nonsensical.


It's easy to find a pattern after the fact. It doesn't mean that there is one.

Edit: I meant to reply to kenskid.

Message edited by author 2011-05-21 00:27:47.
 05/21/2011 12:29:55 AM · #11
Yes but really not going for that take on it. Simply put....was that kid meant to die at that point in his life REGARDLESS of what happened in my life (FATE)

Originally posted by alohadave:
Originally posted by ambaker:
Stuff happens... Of all the years and intervening decisions that were made, to pick one as the cause is nonsensical.


It's easy to find a pattern after the fact. It doesn't mean that there is one.

Edit: I meant to reply to kenskid.
05/21/2011 12:31:39 AM · #12
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Originally posted by robs:
Just the thought of fate is so depressing, I would vote for any other option.


Why?

Because it would mean there is no free will.... everything is pre-determined so what's the point of life other then to run around and wait for what is already set by some mythical creature to occur. Sounds pretty depressing to me.....
 05/21/2011 12:36:39 AM · #13
Originally posted by robs:
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Originally posted by robs:
Just the thought of fate is so depressing, I would vote for any other option.


Why?

Because it would mean there is no free will.... everything is pre-determined so what's the point of life other then to run around and wait for what is already set by some mythical creature to occur. Sounds pretty depressing to me.....


Ahh, my misunderstanding. I agree with you as I believe that there is free will and we make determinations that affect our life, however, we do not control the other guy so you can still walk out into the street and get hit by that preverbial truck. i.e. stuff happens.
 05/21/2011 12:40:07 AM · #14
A young man travels back in time and accidentally puts his parents relationship at risk, which threatens his very existence. Fortunately Marty gets them together at the "Enchantment Under the Sea" dance. Was this Fate or a DeLorean?
 05/21/2011 12:41:35 AM · #15
Originally posted by kenskid:
Yes but really not going for that take on it. Simply put....was that kid meant to die at that point in his life REGARDLESS of what happened in my life (FATE)



Really two seperate things. Was the kid meant to die at that point in his life... the answer is no ... regardless of what happened in my life (fate) ... your life has nothing to do with it so it not regardless it is just that your life is not a factor. People tend to always want to put themselves into the equation during lifes events that have nothing whatsoever to do with them.
 05/21/2011 12:41:52 AM · #16
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
A young man travels back in time and accidentally puts his parents relationship at risk, which threatens his very existence. Fortunately Marty gets them together at the "Enchantment Under the Sea" dance. Was this Fate or a DeLorean?


Brilliant Ken! this begs another question: if your mom was hot in high school would you go back in time to make out with her?
 05/21/2011 12:43:38 AM · #17
Originally posted by smardaz:
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
A young man travels back in time and accidentally puts his parents relationship at risk, which threatens his very existence. Fortunately Marty gets them together at the "Enchantment Under the Sea" dance. Was this Fate or a DeLorean?


Brilliant Ken! this begs another question: if your mom was hot in high school would you go back in time to make out with her?


Erasing that picture from my mind!
 05/21/2011 12:43:47 AM · #18
Originally posted by kenskid:
Yes but really not going for that take on it. Simply put....was that kid meant to die at that point in his life REGARDLESS of what happened in my life (FATE)

Originally posted by alohadave:
Originally posted by ambaker:
Stuff happens... Of all the years and intervening decisions that were made, to pick one as the cause is nonsensical.


It's easy to find a pattern after the fact. It doesn't mean that there is one.

Edit: I meant to reply to kenskid.


If you believe fate exists, then it doesn't matter. It may as well, for all the practical effect you can have on the outcome of events (There is no way to know what impact any event will have on the future). If it makes you feel better, then believe in it, none of us can tell you how or what to believe.
 05/21/2011 12:46:59 AM · #19
Originally posted by kenskid:
Yes but really not going for that take on it. Simply put....was that kid meant to die at that point in his life REGARDLESS of what happened in my life (FATE)

Originally posted by alohadave:
Originally posted by ambaker:
Stuff happens... Of all the years and intervening decisions that were made, to pick one as the cause is nonsensical.


It's easy to find a pattern after the fact. It doesn't mean that there is one.

Edit: I meant to reply to kenskid.


The way you worded it right there, it doesn't sound like Butterfly Effect vs Fate. It sounds more like "does my fate affect the fate of others?"

If you believe in fate, then yes, fates are all said to be interwoven at some point.

I don't believe in fate. I also don't believe in such completely exaggerated "examples" of the butterfly effect.

I also don't believe that it has to be Butterfly Effect vs Fate. I prefer "Scheisse Happens" and "you create and affect the events in your life by your decisions."

Also, what ambaker said : )
 05/21/2011 03:16:30 AM · #20
butterfly. but of course, I see the entire universe as being somewhat that way.. The whole "you can't step into the same steam twice" thing..

Message edited by author 2011-05-21 03:17:42.
 05/21/2011 03:32:08 AM · #21
Originally posted by Cory:
"you can't step into the same steam twice" thing..


sounds painful
 05/21/2011 08:14:48 AM · #22
The answer is incredibly obvious. If the first kid hadn't failed, the second kid wouldn't have died.

If the kid hadn't failed, he wouldn't have met the freshman and thus the second kid would have never been born. If you were never born, you can't die.

05/21/2011 08:59:09 AM · #23
I think you read it different... the kid that what born out of the school failure dad was not the one who died. See the original post again and you'll get a better look.

Originally posted by vawendy:
The answer is incredibly obvious. If the first kid hadn't failed, the second kid wouldn't have died.

If the kid hadn't failed, he wouldn't have met the freshman and thus the second kid would have never been born. If you were never born, you can't die.
05/21/2011 09:37:23 AM · #24
Originally posted by kenskid:
I think you read it different... the kid that what born out of the school failure dad was not the one who died. See the original post again and you'll get a better look.

Originally posted by vawendy:
The answer is incredibly obvious. If the first kid hadn't failed, the second kid wouldn't have died.

If the kid hadn't failed, he wouldn't have met the freshman and thus the second kid would have never been born. If you were never born, you can't die.


Ooops. I'm sleepy -- we had 7 boys at a sleepover last night. Somehow I didn't get much sleep. :)

05/21/2011 09:49:31 AM · #25
Originally posted by kenskid:
I think you read it different... the kid that what born out of the school failure dad was not the one who died. See the original post again and you'll get a better look.

Originally posted by vawendy:
The answer is incredibly obvious. If the first kid hadn't failed, the second kid wouldn't have died.

If the kid hadn't failed, he wouldn't have met the freshman and thus the second kid would have never been born. If you were never born, you can't die.


But if the second kid was never born he couldn't have caused the other kid to die.

I'm inclined to think that if you change anything you change everything, but it is all a cause and effect chain, not an already fixed fate. So, yeah, butterfly effect, I guess.
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