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05/17/2011 05:33:11 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dmadden:
The fact that prostitution is illegal slows the spread of HIV? |
The Dominican has a thriving legal sex industry. HIV prevalence in the country's estimated 100,000 female sex workers ranges from 2.5% to 12.4%, depending on the locale... coincidence?
Also, child prostitution has been problematic to the Dominican government. |
Africa has an alarming rate of HIV. Does Africa have this thriving legal sex industry? Does Amsterdam have a high rate of HIV? |
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05/17/2011 05:34:26 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dmadden:
The fact that prostitution is illegal slows the spread of HIV? |
The Dominican has a thriving legal sex industry. HIV prevalence in the country's estimated 100,000 female sex workers ranges from 2.5% to 12.4%, depending on the locale... coincidence?
Also, child prostitution has been problematic to the Dominican government. |
I would be interested in obtaining the statistics regarding this matter from countries where prostitution is legal, controlled, taxed and where the prostitutes have to undergo physical tests on a regular basis... perhaps then we would get a true image of the spread of diseases in this environment versus one where there are no controls whatsoever.
Ray |
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05/17/2011 05:41:56 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dmadden:
The fact that prostitution is illegal slows the spread of HIV? |
The Dominican has a thriving legal sex industry. HIV prevalence in the country's estimated 100,000 female sex workers ranges from 2.5% to 12.4%, depending on the locale... coincidence?
Also, child prostitution has been problematic to the Dominican government. |
I would be interested in obtaining the statistics regarding this matter from countries where prostitution is legal, controlled, taxed and where the prostitutes have to undergo physical tests on a regular basis... perhaps then we would get a true image of the spread of diseases in this environment versus one where there are no controls whatsoever.
Ray |
Seems like it might be an interesting read: A Journal article that talks about the issues with emphasis on New Zealand which decriminalized prostituion in 2003. |
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05/17/2011 05:42:54 PM · #29 |
Actually NO...You can believe whatever you want, but you CAN NOT undertake any form of action that discriminates against any particular group. The laws on this are abundantly clear.
Ray |
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05/17/2011 05:45:31 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Actually NO...You can believe whatever you want, but you CAN NOT undertake any form of action that discriminates against any particular group. The laws on this are abundantly clear.
Ray |
Aren't we talking about 'inaction' here? |
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05/17/2011 05:54:10 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Actually NO...You can believe whatever you want, but you CAN NOT undertake any form of action that discriminates against any particular group. The laws on this are abundantly clear.
Ray |
Aren't we talking about 'inaction' here? |
No... in both instances alluded to here, someone refused a service to a specific group contrary to the laws which address discrimination.
Ray |
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05/17/2011 06:02:38 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GuGi:
Being gay is not a choice you make, it is who you are. The other examples you mention with are choices. |
Isn't it more important to just determine the societal tolerances or harms for whatever activity rather than whether it is a choice or not? |
Being gay is not an activity, it is an identity. |
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05/17/2011 06:15:18 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by GuGi:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GuGi:
Being gay is not a choice you make, it is who you are. The other examples you mention with are choices. |
Isn't it more important to just determine the societal tolerances or harms for whatever activity rather than whether it is a choice or not? |
Being gay is not an activity, it is an identity. |
Maybe you should just explain the context of your statement then. How does it fit into the conversation? |
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05/17/2011 06:37:13 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Seems like you'll be impacted if you don't agree. |
Right... and I completely disagree with that as well... If a photg does not feel comfortable shooting anything they should NOT be forced into doing it or be sued for them declining (assuming they didn't accept money and just not turn up or whatever just to be a PITA)... civil union / skydiving / whatever.
The only real exceptions I see - similar to the law of robots funny enough - the inaction causing death/permanent disability type stuff, like a doctor refusing to treat a HIV positive patient in an ER setting e.t.c. For non life threatening elective surgery type stuff - I have no issues because there is time to make other arrangements. I have no doubt there are cases far closer to the line that have far harder issues (not mentioning them else this will go to rant) and they would have to be discussed to find a sensible alternative but emotional issues tend to just ratchet up the screaming on both sides and we get nowhere. |
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05/17/2011 06:52:05 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GuGi:
Being gay is not a choice you make, it is who you are. The other examples you mention with are choices. |
Isn't it more important to just determine the societal tolerances or harms for whatever activity rather than whether it is a choice or not? |
What are the societal harms associated with being gay?
Message edited by author 2011-05-17 18:52:13.
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05/17/2011 07:25:16 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
I would be interested in obtaining the statistics regarding this matter from countries where prostitution is legal, controlled, taxed and where the prostitutes have to undergo physical tests on a regular basis... perhaps then we would get a true image of the spread of diseases in this environment versus one where there are no controls whatsoever.
Ray |
This is from that cited article:
In the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal, 60% of prostituted women suffered physical assaults; 70% experienced verbal threats of physical assault; 40% experienced sexual violence; and 40% had been forced into prostitution or sexual abuse by acquaintances(Vanwesenbeeck, 1994).
There's a large section on HIV, but I don't think it provides the exact statistics you are looking for. |
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05/17/2011 07:26:45 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GuGi:
Being gay is not a choice you make, it is who you are. The other examples you mention with are choices. |
Isn't it more important to just determine the societal tolerances or harms for whatever activity rather than whether it is a choice or not? |
What are the societal harms associated with being gay? |
Irrelevant to the question being asked. |
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05/17/2011 08:08:25 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by Socom:
Originally posted by dmadden:
And legalize prostitution with consenting adults as well :) |
It is.. well in Nevada.. they have heavily regulated brothels. |
i find it disturbing that the root word of brothel is "broth"....i dunno why, just seems unsavory. like some kind of human soup |
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05/17/2011 08:18:22 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GuGi:
Being gay is not a choice you make, it is who you are. The other examples you mention with are choices. |
Isn't it more important to just determine the societal tolerances or harms for whatever activity rather than whether it is a choice or not? |
What are the societal harms associated with being gay? |
Irrelevant to the question being asked. |
GuGi said being gay is a choice and your response was to ask about the importance of societal tolerances and harms as if being gay caused harm to others. You're right it is irrelvant because there is no harm associated with being gay.
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05/17/2011 08:23:58 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by GuGi:
Being gay is not a choice you make, it is who you are. The other examples you mention with are choices. |
Isn't it more important to just determine the societal tolerances or harms for whatever activity rather than whether it is a choice or not? |
What are the societal harms associated with being gay? |
Irrelevant to the question being asked. |
GuGi said being gay is a choice and your response was to ask about the importance of societal tolerances and harms as if being gay caused harm to others. You're right it is irrelvant because there is no harm associated with being gay. |
So my point is if that's the real heart of the matter why even mention the choice bit? It seems like a red herring to me. If the real issues are whether there are harms or whether society is willing to tolerate it, the choice bit doesn't matter.
It actually seems the very original post isn't interested in gay marriage anyway. That is taken as the given and the question is why don't we also allow these other things (polygamy, prostitution). I think it's pretty easy, for example, to show that prostitution presents enough harm to individuals and society that it should be discouraged and not encouraged. |
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05/17/2011 08:28:49 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by dmadden:
Does Amsterdam have a high rate of HIV? |
Although Sex workers in the Netherlands are regulated, an estimated 6% of Amsterdam sex workers are infected. Conclusions: HIV prevalence rates among sex workers are high in Amsterdam, especially compared to the 0.2% infection rate of the general population of the Netherlands.
Also, since ya asked about Amsterdam, the Netherlands is listed as the number one destination for human trafficking... sex slavery. There were 809 registered victims of human trafficking in 2008, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry, including girls as young as age 12. Most police investigations on human trafficking concern legal sex businesses.
"We̢۪ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities", said Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam.
At the end of 2008, Amsterdam's Mayor Cohen announced plans to close half of the city̢۪s 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity.
What harm could legalized prostitution do, right?
Message edited by author 2011-05-17 20:46:07.
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05/17/2011 08:59:13 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Nullix:
Originally posted by mike_311:
i think society is ready for gay marriage, polygamy would wreck havoc with the legal system of divorce, custody and wills.
prostitution, well if they were standing on the streets soliciting it might have been legalized already. |
If you think society is ready for gay marriage, why not polygamy? If you're going to change thousands of years of the understanding of marriage, why not?
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i didnt say society isn't ready for it, just that I think it would have legal ramifications and adjustments to the system compared to just two men or women saying i do.
on a personal note I'm against polygamy. its bad enough us guys get married to one crazy chick, anyone that wants to take or two or more is nuts. this coming from someone who's happily married :)
but really though why do we try to stop people from being happy? Let them do what they want.
Message edited by author 2011-05-17 21:04:43. |
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05/17/2011 09:04:32 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think it's pretty easy, for example, to show that prostitution presents enough harm to individuals and society that it should be discouraged and not encouraged. |
the same can be said for tobacco and alcohol.
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05/17/2011 09:13:11 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think it's pretty easy, for example, to show that prostitution presents enough harm to individuals and society that it should be discouraged and not encouraged. |
the same can be said for tobacco and alcohol. |
This is a pretty weak argument.
Not wearing a seatbelt also falls in this category. What should I take away from that? |
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05/17/2011 09:15:07 PM · #45 |
| Perhaps that alcohol, tobacco use, and not wearing seatbelts should be discouraged and not encouraged? I would also offer that they are choices of consenting adults and with the exception of not wearing seatbelts, generate revenue. As does prostitution. So maybe they ARE good examples... |
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05/17/2011 09:21:50 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
I would also offer that they are choices of consenting adults and with the exception of not wearing seatbelts, generate revenue. |
that was my point they are allowed because they can be taxed, however detrimental to society they may be. what is so wrong with two consenting adults engaging in payment for sex? |
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05/17/2011 10:09:51 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by mike_311:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think it's pretty easy, for example, to show that prostitution presents enough harm to individuals and society that it should be discouraged and not encouraged. |
the same can be said for tobacco and alcohol. |
This is a pretty weak argument.
Not wearing a seatbelt also falls in this category. What should I take away from that? |
It's exactly the right argument.
The real question is: Do people have the right to consensually engage in activities which are potentially detrimental to their own health?
Anyway, how is an agreement between two people to have sex in exchange for money harmful? Who is the victim? It's the criminal elements and activities around it that causes the harm, not the agreement or the act itself. The exact same reasons that made prohibition such a failure.
Message edited by author 2011-05-17 22:24:11. |
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05/17/2011 10:39:14 PM · #48 |
I'm with ya brother....thanks for digging this up!
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dmadden:
Does Amsterdam have a high rate of HIV? |
Although Sex workers in the Netherlands are regulated, an estimated 6% of Amsterdam sex workers are infected. Conclusions: HIV prevalence rates among sex workers are high in Amsterdam, especially compared to the 0.2% infection rate of the general population of the Netherlands.
Also, since ya asked about Amsterdam, the Netherlands is listed as the number one destination for human trafficking... sex slavery. There were 809 registered victims of human trafficking in 2008, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry, including girls as young as age 12. Most police investigations on human trafficking concern legal sex businesses.
"We̢۪ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities", said Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam.
At the end of 2008, Amsterdam's Mayor Cohen announced plans to close half of the city̢۪s 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity.
What harm could legalized prostitution do, right? |
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05/17/2011 11:07:03 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by dmadden:
Does Amsterdam have a high rate of HIV? |
Although Sex workers in the Netherlands are regulated, an estimated 6% of Amsterdam sex workers are infected. Conclusions: HIV prevalence rates among sex workers are high in Amsterdam, especially compared to the 0.2% infection rate of the general population of the Netherlands.
Also, since ya asked about Amsterdam, the Netherlands is listed as the number one destination for human trafficking... sex slavery. There were 809 registered victims of human trafficking in 2008, 763 were women and at least 60 percent of them were forced to work in the sex industry, including girls as young as age 12. Most police investigations on human trafficking concern legal sex businesses.
"We̢۪ve realized this is no longer about small-scale entrepreneurs, but that big crime organizations are involved here in trafficking women, drugs, killings and other criminal activities", said Job Cohen, the former mayor of Amsterdam.
At the end of 2008, Amsterdam's Mayor Cohen announced plans to close half of the city̢۪s 400 prostitution windows because of suspected criminal gang activity.
What harm could legalized prostitution do, right? |
Comparing legal to illegal prostitution. Cases of abuse and cases of HIV infection are easily documented in the areas of legal prostitution. This info is easily accessed for study, yes? The underworld does not volunteer such info for study.I dont see how activities in the underworld could be properly benchmarked. Lot of assumptions at best. Also! There are very few areas in the world that have legal prostitution. If prostitution was legal everywhere, would there be all this trafficking? I think there would only be more travelling. Its only natural that every pimp will show up in these niche markets. Gambling used to be this way, look at gambling now? It's everywhere, without the bad stigma and crime attached to it.
I'm yet to see a good argument against polygamy. As for  mike_311 If u don't like crazy chics, dont marry them :) |
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05/17/2011 11:14:42 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by dmadden:
I'm yet to see a good argument against polygamy. |
For most men, the thought of having more than one wife nagging at him is a good enough argument in itself. :)
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