America, get out today and VOTE!

11/02/2010 12:26:23 PM · #26

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

That's a very fatalistic look at democracy. Voting, and indeed, participating in the system, does not imply naivete. One can be perfectly aware of the futility of one's efforts and yet still pursue them. I seem to remember a little something about Socrates and this... ;)
And further, any and all relationships between people rely upon a trust that they will follow through with their words. If you find fault with this, then you might want to question why you have a wife, since that, too, is all just a promise. One would like to think that spouses are more bound by their word than others but it's a false assumption. The determination to lie or deceive is still readily available to all. Also, that a politician doesn't accomplish what they purported they would does not imply lies, or even deceit necessarily, simply failure to achieve what they aimed to. I'm sure we're all guilty of that in our lives, I know I am, and I don't have an army of people trying to disagree with me as their job. Have we objective measures to value our friends? Our family? Weren't you just railing about putting people in boxes and now you're decrying the lack of an objective measure?
Pissing in everybody's Wheaties can be fun, but what sort of a platform is that? Myself? If the human condition is shit, I'd rather show how it doesn't have to be that way than wallow in decrepitude.

Now that is a good counterargument..

Just so we're on the same page here, I don't have a wife, I have a perpetual Fiancee, as I don't see what difference a piece of paper makes (until it comes to legal stuff anyway..), and my freinds and my family I know, as I do my fiancee, I've had many conversations, deep and personal with each one.. Very few voters can claim to have even shaken hands with the candidates, and I doubt that anyone really knows all of the candidates on a deep and personal level.

And I am usually against "boxing in" kids and average citizens, but I'm all for boxing in politicians, as that's what they do already, albeit in a non-objective, non-useful manner..

Politics play (and prey) upon emotions, and I think that's a piss poor way to do anything.

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

11/02/2010 12:34:47 PM · #27

Originally posted by farfel53:

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by farfel53:
Please just stay home and wring your hands, then, OK? The rest of us "naive" puppets will watch out for your rights, to the best of our ability. You just read your Socrates and think it all through.

Impressive counterargument.

OK...counterargument: do you really think national policy is set by local government functionaries? I don't much care about who the property valuation administrator is, as long as he's honest and basically clean. The county clerk is opposite party, but has done good work, doesn't rip us off on our tax collections or license plate fees. Does he have an effect on the bailouts from Washington, or the health care debate? Not likely, I think. It's not of national importance if we don't know all the names.

Yes, I know, democracy will eventually vote itself out of existence...but I have kids and grandkids that I would dearly love to have some freedom and opportunity, and am not quite ready to lay it all down for the sake of some conspiracy of corporations. Not yet, anyway.

I know you big thinkers love it when plain folk engage you, because you can really look waaayyyyy down your noses at us, but I fail to see the benefit of fear and defeatism. So, as I said, you can have all the Socrates you want...I'm going to vote, and you can stay home.

There...the argument is fleshed out a little, and finished as far as I'm concerned.

I think your heart is in the right place, and it makes me very sad that our system is so broken, people like you really do deserve better.

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

11/02/2010 12:46:00 PM · #28

coryboehne is trying to fake everyone out, so he's the only one voting, and he can vote himself in as Mayor!

spiritualspatula

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

11/02/2010 12:51:00 PM · #29

Oh I agree about politics being, all in all, asinine. But it really comes down to individual choice at the end, in all of these arguments. Can the citizen accept outright lies as truth without question? Yes. Can the politician craft them? Yes. Can our family, our friends, anybody, deceive us and leave us for dead in the gutter despite our previous good relations? Yes.
But must they? Or, indeed, will they? It all comes down to a faith in other people. It's what ALL of society is based upon. In my eyes, you either have to accept that or decline it, but you can't do it piecemeal. When you cross an intersection you have faith that the person to your left won't suddenly decide it's better for them to run a red light. Pedestrians assume they won't be squashed. We go to doctors assuming they won't kill us. We let others prepare our food, but they could poison us.
I'm not saying trust everybody, but I am saying there is no obligation for anybody to actually do the right thing other than their own will. We're all down in the same pit struggling together, and we're all human (barring lawyers...harhar). Sometimes you get shit on, sometimes you do the shitting, but does shitting on a shitpile do anything but show that we can build our own Tower of Babel and hear our own voice?

As for objectifying politicians... I'm very against that. It's another word for polarization, which we already have plenty of.
Although, I heard an interesting explanation of why British races can be so short- because parties are so strong. You're not voting for an individual, you're voting for a party, and you know what that candidate will do (just summing up another's words... I've little knowledge of British politics). In the US, everything is individualized. Who knows what anybody will do? Which is better? I think that argument could go on forever.

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

11/02/2010 12:53:36 PM · #30

Policy, local or national, is dictated by the powers that buy the politicians. Always has been, and probably always will be, sadly. Sometimes the purchasing is more obvious than at other times (see "Tammany Hall" and "the Daley Machine" for especially egregious examples), but it's always the deciding factor, despite that there have always been elected (or appointed) individuals that fight the entrenched power structure.

Anybody who doesn't think the current Federal government of the US is controlled by Big Business is being willfully blind. Republican, Democrat, it doesn't matter. Corporate interests dictate policy, and they are getting better and better at it. They will be the death of us.

I am pretty sure this is basically what Cory's alluding to when he says none of the options appeal to him. I could be wrong. But I share his frustration that, as I go to the polls today, I really don't see any options that come close to matching what I would ideally LIKE to vote for; I am voting, instead, for the lesser-of-evils, fully aware that it probably makes no difference which candidate I choose.

R.

lynnesite

Canon EOS-1D X

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM II

11/02/2010 12:56:07 PM · #31

How to argue, with Monty Python as the lesson plan: //factchecked.org/2007/lesson-plans/monty-python-and-the-quest-for-the-perfect-fallacy/

I'm going to exercise my privilege to vote. Damn the lobbying special interests, full speed ahead! California has a long way back up, and partisan politics has hobbled it greatly.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

11/02/2010 12:56:17 PM · #32

Don't vote angry! :P

Apple iPhone 5

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 ED

11/02/2010 01:18:02 PM · #33

Here in Ireland, land of economic woe, we'll be due a General Election in a few months. Once the current Government collapses following their budget announcement.

Everyone I've spoken to are extremely frustrated, for one main reason: They see no way out of the current eceonomic mess, and have no real choices for change. The main parties are all so close to centre they're indistinguishable from one another.

Before the last general election, I phoned or emailed all the candidates with my questions, and made sure I grilled any who turned up at the door. In the past few months, I've spoken to councilors (local) and TD (national gov. level) ministers, mainly in my capacity of chairman of the local residents committee.

This results in disillusionment and disappointment for me in most cases.

I'm reaching the opinion that the only person I'd like to vote for is myself. I have about 2,000 votes available from the residents, enough to get me a seat on the local council. Add in the 'don't knows' from other areas, and I'm pretty sure I'd reach my quota.

Haven't decided what I'll call my party yet.

11/02/2010 01:23:48 PM · #34

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

You and I have very different outlooks on life and people.

You trust them I don't. I never drive without obsessively looking around, everywhere, to see if some idiot is speeding towards me, I never assume anyone will stop at a red light, I expect the doctor to make grave mistakes with horrible ramifications, I never cross the street assuming no-one will hit me, rather I expect someone to try, and therefore proceed with all due caution.

In the end though, as per the political part of your statement - I do not wish to see further polarization, instead, what I desire is a system that gives us objective facts, rather than the emotional crap we currently get fed.

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

11/02/2010 01:24:49 PM · #35

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

You're spot on, and while that's not everything I'm railing against, it's a very large part of it.

spiritualspatula

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

11/02/2010 01:44:04 PM · #36

Originally posted by coryboehne:

But see, you must trust them or you're just suicidal. Which is it? If you believe they're going to keep going, or even start up once you're in front of them, why would you cross? You wouldn't. Exercising prudence is different from actually not trusting they won't run you over.

And really, I do agree with what you're saying about corporations and whatnot. I just think that it's better to promote than to dissuade. The average person has enough jerks peeing in their wheaties without me joining in. It's hard to keep your chin up about this stuff though. For instance, I'm alternately interested in reading this book and think it would be the most horribly depressing thing ever. Matt Taibbi's "Griftopia" excerpt

mgsmith53

Pentax K-R

Pentax DA L 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL

11/02/2010 01:44:41 PM · #37

Thankfully, this time, lots of us feel there ARE real differences. I don't think anyone can say "Look at Rand Paul and Jack Conway, they're two of a kind." And I think Nevadans might feel the same, Floridians, Alaskans, Wisconsin...(ians?) LOL. Anyhow, we feel this time there IS real choice, and there IS something at stake. And I don't see how that can all be relegated to "spoon-fed information" or pandering to emotion. Yes, there is emeotion involved...it's called anger, and it's been stirred by elected officials who don't give a crap about what we think. Hopefully by the end of THIS day, they will.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

11/02/2010 01:48:37 PM · #38

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by coryboehne:

You and I have very different outlooks on life and people.

You trust them I don't. I never drive without obsessively looking around, everywhere, to see if some idiot is speeding towards me, I never assume anyone will stop at a red light, I expect the doctor to make grave mistakes with horrible ramifications, I never cross the street assuming no-one will hit me, rather I expect someone to try, and therefore proceed with all due caution.

In the end though, as per the political part of your statement - I do not wish to see further polarization, instead, what I desire is a system that gives us objective facts, rather than the emotional crap we currently get fed.

But see, you must trust them or you're just suicidal. Which is it? If you believe they're going to keep going, or even start up once you're in front of them, why would you cross? You wouldn't. Exercising prudence is different from actually not trusting they won't run you over.

And really, I do agree with what you're saying about corporations and whatnot. I just think that it's better to promote than to dissuade. The average person has enough jerks peeing in their wheaties without me joining in. It's hard to keep your chin up about this stuff though. For instance, I'm alternately interested in reading this book and think it would be the most horribly depressing thing ever. Matt Taibbi's "Griftopia" excerpt

I believe I can spot them in time to duck out of the way... And for what it's worth, I hope one day to see a major change, but as long as people think they actually have say, and that it's not just a futile waste of time and effort, we will never see the change we so sorely need... I feel it's my responsibility to "piss in the Wheaties" of the blind so that they might taste the foulness that surrounds us...

njsabs

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

11/02/2010 01:49:46 PM · #39

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Unfortunately this statement is so true. I don't think that should be a reason to stop voting, though. I vote to make my own statement, however small and ignored it shall be. I feel I owe it to those that fought for the freedoms of women to vote long ago.

mgsmith53

Pentax K-R

Pentax DA L 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL

11/02/2010 02:04:46 PM · #40

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by coryboehne:

You and I have very different outlooks on life and people.

You trust them I don't. I never drive without obsessively looking around, everywhere, to see if some idiot is speeding towards me, I never assume anyone will stop at a red light, I expect the doctor to make grave mistakes with horrible ramifications, I never cross the street assuming no-one will hit me, rather I expect someone to try, and therefore proceed with all due caution.

In the end though, as per the political part of your statement - I do not wish to see further polarization, instead, what I desire is a system that gives us objective facts, rather than the emotional crap we currently get fed.

But see, you must trust them or you're just suicidal. Which is it? If you believe they're going to keep going, or even start up once you're in front of them, why would you cross? You wouldn't. Exercising prudence is different from actually not trusting they won't run you over.

And really, I do agree with what you're saying about corporations and whatnot. I just think that it's better to promote than to dissuade. The average person has enough jerks peeing in their wheaties without me joining in. It's hard to keep your chin up about this stuff though. For instance, I'm alternately interested in reading this book and think it would be the most horribly depressing thing ever. Matt Taibbi's "Griftopia" excerpt

I believe I can spot them in time to duck out of the way... And for what it's worth, I hope one day to see a major change, but as long as people think they actually have say, and that it's not just a futile waste of time and effort, we will never see the change we so sorely need... I feel it's my responsibility to "piss in the Wheaties" of the blind so that they might taste the foulness that surrounds us...

So you're advocating we toss all this voting malarky, and change to to where nobody has any say, but must listen and obey to some wise benevolent dictator or council of woohoos, who are going to fix all the booboos? I'm confused...
Dude, if YOU don't take what little responsibility you have and deal with it standing up, you'll have to take a lot worse, eventually, kneeling down.

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

11/02/2010 02:11:48 PM · #41

Regardless of the quality (or qualities) of candidates, in California we have reason to vote because we are often, through the initiative process, actually making law. Not always good law, but it is law made directly by "the people" and seems to me a worthwhile opportunity to exercise the franchise. I don't see how boycotting an election is going to bring about any positive change in the political system or anything else.

spiritualspatula

Panasonic LUMIX DMC-LX100

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

11/02/2010 02:18:58 PM · #42

Originally posted by coryboehne:

Okay, so we've heard you say that the faucet is leaking and the bathroom is flooding, and we never denied that fact, in actuality it's why we're trying to wrench on it. Will you keep telling us the house is going to flood just so you can say "HA! I told you so" at the end when everything's underwater? I don't think anybody has really denied that the system has major faults, but we've all noted that we are attempting to solve things in the limited capacity we're afforded. Now, perhaps you just haven't mentioned your solution, but all you've noted is how you're waiting, no, encouraging, the collapse. You've refused the avenue we have, are you idly standing, or have you someplace for us to go?

franktheyank

Canon EOS-5D Mark IV

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

11/02/2010 02:27:34 PM · #43

To all you young folks out there that are disheartened at politics and think that not voting is a rational response, well...
Someday you will want to retire, there is a group of politicians out there that want to destroy Social Security for you unless you say no.
Someday you will get sick and need health care, the same group wants you to be at the mercy of greedy lying insurance companies, unless you say no.
I can go on and on. There are stark choices in this election. If you don't vote then don't complain about what comes your way.

mgsmith53

Pentax K-R

Pentax DA L 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AL

11/02/2010 02:32:03 PM · #44

Originally posted by franktheyank:

Thank you, Yes, there ARE stark choices. And THAT is why we vote. And we are, so far in this country, civilised enough to bow to the representative majority and to not start shooting. God Bless the USA.

11/02/2010 02:58:34 PM · #45

Originally posted by spiritualspatula:

Originally posted by coryboehne:

I believe I can spot them in time to duck out of the way... And for what it's worth, I hope one day to see a major change, but as long as people think they actually have say, and that it's not just a futile waste of time and effort, we will never see the change we so sorely need... I feel it's my responsibility to "piss in the Wheaties" of the blind so that they might taste the foulness that surrounds us...

Okay, so we've heard you say that the faucet is leaking and the bathroom is flooding, and we never denied that fact, in actuality it's why we're trying to wrench on it. Will you keep telling us the house is going to flood just so you can say "HA! I told you so" at the end when everything's underwater? I don't think anybody has really denied that the system has major faults, but we've all noted that we are attempting to solve things in the limited capacity we're afforded. Now, perhaps you just haven't mentioned your solution, but all you've noted is how you're waiting, no, encouraging, the collapse. You've refused the avenue we have, are you idly standing, or have you someplace for us to go?

The problem, as I see it, is that you are wrenching on the faucet when you should be replacing pipes.

As per my solution? We need revolution, preferably bloodless, and at this point I'd be all for a English Parlament type system, at least a king doesn't spend all of his time bickering with other people.

You see, that's another problem, all of our solutions are solutions by committee, and that (nearly) always results in a useless compromise that usually does no good and works backwards from the original problem.

We need a clear vision, and a government that can achieve it, a government that truly desires to work for the populace.

I'll never live to see the day, I'm quite convinced of that..

Oh, and I do think most people are astonishingly stupid, so until there is some requirement to prove that you actually should be allowed to make choices that affect others, before being allowed to vote, I think I'll just continue to strongly believe that we're fucked and nothing I can do will help.

As a matter of a fact, I think until the majority of people feel as I do, then we'll continue to play this circular game. So I hope to make a difference by encouraging others to recognize that the system does not, in any way, work..

----

One reason I would encourage you to vote is to vote on bond issues, and other similar types of ballot issues, those are the singular influence you really do have - but be sure not to fill out any of the boxes for candidates, as they're all non-choices and by not voting you at least can demonstrate that you understand that they are non-choices.

Message edited by author 2010-11-02 15:11:16.

Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS

11/02/2010 03:03:19 PM · #46

Originally posted by franktheyank:

Oh right, so if I don't play their game, then I'm to blame for what they would do anyway? You're nuts.

And the group of politicians who want to destroy social security have been in power for years, and have fairly well succeeded at this point.

Healthcare?? Let me tell you about healthcare.. I pay $500 per month for insurance, I went to the doctor a few months ago for a stomachache, left with a stomachache, no answers (but I did get some pills that make me unable to walk), and a $1,000 bill.. Yep, sounds like I'm getting a great deal on healthcare doesn't it...

Message edited by author 2010-11-02 15:04:00.

Strikeslip

Canon EOS-5D

11/02/2010 03:07:32 PM · #47

Cory, you sound a bit miffed.