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10/19/2010 12:43:13 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... If you ask people why they work, they answer to make money to go on vacation or buy things. They do not work to contribute to society or help others, etc. Their motivation has changed. ... |
What year was it that people answered this quesiton, "To contribute to society or help others, etc."? |
Ever hear of the Peace Corps? Or people who work for non-profits, often for free?
Or artists?
I've chosen to work at health clinics which serve the disadvantaged rather than at some fancy health spa, at considerable financial disadvantage to myself, precisely because I want what I do to have some meaning to others, including the larger society.
Message edited by author 2010-10-19 12:49:57. |
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10/19/2010 12:49:04 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
I'd much rather have kids outside pointing sticks at each other and screaming BANG BANG, making rubber-band guns, throwing rocks all day, and killing wildlife, yep. |
At least they'd be using their imaginations and their bodies, and see the real bloody consequences of their actions rather than being able to just hit the RESET button.
There is recent scientific evidence which shows that someone watching TV can actually exhibit a lower metabolic activity level than when just lying around doing nothing. |
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10/19/2010 12:54:24 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Actually, photography is completely different from playing video games or watching TV. When you take pictures you have to think creatively, and you are actually producing something... art! When you play video games you create nothing, at least nothing that exists outside of your gamer profile. |
I can provide you with so many obvious counter examples that disprove you on precisely this point so easily that it's hardly worth my time. Are you willing to retract this statement?
It's shockingly uninformed, I'm afraid.
I can't believe anyone would even SAY this!!! |
Well if it's not worth your time to tell me why I'm wrong then I guess it's not worth my time to type a retraction statement.
Give me one or two examples of how something tangible is created by playing video games, and then I'll reconsider. |
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10/19/2010 12:58:30 PM · #104 |
Games like Sim City (and probably the now wildly-popular Farmville) require people to use all kinds of problem-solving, analytical, planning, math, and social skills. Not every game out there is based on amassing the highest body count ...
Message edited by author 2010-10-19 12:59:08. |
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10/19/2010 01:10:55 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... If you ask people why they work, they answer to make money to go on vacation or buy things. They do not work to contribute to society or help others, etc. Their motivation has changed. ... |
What year was it that people answered this quesiton, "To contribute to society or help others, etc."? |
Ever hear of the Peace Corps? Or people who work for non-profits, often for free?
Or artists?
... |
So you're saying the Peace Corps, non-profits, and artists no longer exist? I'm not asking you & the Dr to toot your charitable horns. I play violent video games and also do charitable work, but don't feel the need to spout off about it. I keep my responses short in order to encourage you to read the entire thing. Look up and read, I've bolded and underlined it. |
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10/19/2010 01:19:43 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... If you ask people why they work, they answer to make money to go on vacation or buy things. They do not work to contribute to society or help others, etc. Their motivation has changed. ... |
What year was it that people answered this quesiton, "To contribute to society or help others, etc."? |
Ever hear of the Peace Corps? Or people who work for non-profits, often for free?
Or artists?
... |
So you're saying the Peace Corps, non-profits, and artists no longer exist? I'm not asking you & the Dr to toot your charitable horns. I play violent video games and also do charitable work, but don't feel the need to spout off about it. I keep my responses short in order to encourage you to read the entire thing. Look up and read, I've bolded and underlined it. |
I took your question to ask "when did people ever work ..." for those reasons, and I was pointing out that people have been doing so for some time, and naming one of the most prominent examples of a case where making money "to buy things and go on vacation" was not the primary motivation in making their choice of occupation. I cited myself as only one example I know of personally -- rather than "tooting any horn" I am presenting you with an example of which I have personal knowledge, not some vague, amorphous "people do ..." kind of unsupported statement so common in these discussions. But I guess people here are only interested in opinions, not facts ... :-( |
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10/19/2010 01:23:51 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
Actually, photography is completely different from playing video games or watching TV. When you take pictures you have to think creatively, and you are actually producing something... art! When you play video games you create nothing, at least nothing that exists outside of your gamer profile. |
I can provide you with so many obvious counter examples that disprove you on precisely this point so easily that it's hardly worth my time. Are you willing to retract this statement?
It's shockingly uninformed, I'm afraid.
I can't believe anyone would even SAY this!!! |
Well if it's not worth your time to tell me why I'm wrong then I guess it's not worth my time to type a retraction statement.
Give me one or two examples of how something tangible is created by playing video games, and then I'll reconsider. |
Wait? Did you say tangible? Do you mean 'tangible' like the photos you show online? Or do you have to actually print out them for them to become 'real' creativity?
Okay, let's kind of ignore that you've moved the goalposts, despite the very specific "nothing that exists outside of your gamer profile", and prove you wrong the labor intensive way.
- Any text-based computer game like a MUD/MU* (Multi User [Dungeon]) that allows users to create new content. I've read near novels in those, written by the players.
- Any game like Second Life that allows users to create their own 3-D environments for other players to experience, often massive worlds built almost entirely by the players.
- Any game with creative tools, like Spore, where people design and populate worlds with creatures of their own making
- Any process that takes in-game resources and makes them into 3-D real world objects using fab-at-home object printing techniques or commercial rapid prototyping gear... quite popular for creating toys of *your* online game characters that you've created to represent you. Some people paint them.
- Using game engines to make movies and animations... it even has it's own genre: Machinima
- Any game that provides a sandbox mode for free experimentation
- Any game that has level building tools Like Little Big Planet or Alien Swarm, even better when it's paired with tools for easy online sharing
- Any game where you build teams and rely on social skills, practice, and teamwork to accomplish goals... this can be a hyper-violent WoW/Modern Warfare or a completely non-violent Farmville.
Did you know that someone built a fully functional (virtual) physical computer that can perform basic operations by sliding objects around much like Babbage's calculating machines... in a game called MineCraft? You can run around on it while it's working. Very illustrative.
I banged all that out in two minutes without even looking anything up.
NOW are you willing to retract your statement?
You're wrong because you're WRONG. Notice how heavily I was able to lean on any game that does X.
Why you haven't seen these entirely common and ongoing video gaming outlets as creative endeavors is the real question.
Message edited by author 2010-10-19 14:55:30. |
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10/19/2010 01:25:03 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... If you ask people why they work, they answer to make money to go on vacation or buy things. They do not work to contribute to society or help others, etc. Their motivation has changed. ... |
What year was it that people answered this quesiton, "To contribute to society or help others, etc."? |
Ever hear of the Peace Corps? Or people who work for non-profits, often for free?
Or artists?
... |
So you're saying the Peace Corps, non-profits, and artists no longer exist? I'm not asking you & the Dr to toot your charitable horns. I play violent video games and also do charitable work, but don't feel the need to spout off about it. I keep my responses short in order to encourage you to read the entire thing. Look up and read, I've bolded and underlined it. |
I took your question to ask "when did people ever work ..." for those reasons, and I was pointing out that people have been doing so for some time, and naming one of the most prominent examples of a case where making money "to buy things and go on vacation" was not the primary motivation in making their choice of occupation. I cited myself as only one example I know of personally -- rather than "tooting any horn" I am presenting you with an example of which I have personal knowledge, not some vague, amorphous "people do ..." kind of unsupported statement so common in these discussions. But I guess people here are only interested in opinions, not facts ... :-( |
Sorry I made you make a sad face. It's not your fault you're always so far out in left field. ;-D |
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10/19/2010 01:27:15 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
But I guess people here are only interested in opinions, not facts ... :-( |
Hey, I'm all about facts.
*points up*
Speak for yourself!
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10/19/2010 01:29:13 PM · #110 |
of course, the common response to that sort of factual list is a clam that what I've presented is "not really playing video games"...
That's an argument I don't buy, so don't bother. :)
Message edited by author 2010-10-19 13:31:31. |
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10/19/2010 01:30:08 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
... Little Big Planet... |
That sound track makes me want to slit my throat. ;-P
Message edited by author 2010-10-19 13:30:30. |
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10/19/2010 01:31:34 PM · #112 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Wheee! |
Your verbal violence is killing me! |
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10/19/2010 01:33:46 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Sorry I made you make a sad face. It's not your fault you're always so far out in left field. ;-D |
I usually played an infield position, though I did have one memorable game where I threw out three different base-runners from right field ... :-) |
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10/19/2010 01:36:38 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... Little Big Planet... |
That sound track makes me want to slit my throat. ;-P |
People won't be people when they hear this sound
That's been glowing in the dark at the edge of town
People won't be people, no
The people won't be people when they hear this sound
Won't you show me what begins at the edge of town
TAKE THAT STRIKESLIP!!!
Message edited by author 2010-10-19 13:38:44. |
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10/19/2010 01:41:18 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Sorry I made you make a sad face. It's not your fault you're always so far out in left field. ;-D |
I usually played an infield position, though I did have one memorable game where I threw out three different base-runners from right field ... :-) |
Hopefully kids don't miss out on real sports because of video games. But I still think Doc's hedonism arguments are silly. |
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10/19/2010 01:42:52 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... Little Big Planet... |
That sound track makes me want to slit my throat. ;-P |
People won't be people when they hear this sound
That's been glowing in the dark at the edge of town
People won't be people, no
The people won't be people when they hear this sound
Won't you show me what begins at the edge of town
TAKE THAT STRIKESLIP!!! |
Gah! I'll cover you with peacock feather stamps for that! |
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10/19/2010 01:47:16 PM · #117 |
| I do look forward to my old age. I'll be incontinent and senile, sitting in my own filth at my gaming rig, trash-talking all the young people in my favourite online first-person shooters. |
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10/19/2010 01:50:18 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by Tycho:
Originally posted by Dr. Belly-dancer:
Very few people "go postal" after playing video games or watching the latest slasher movie. But even if they become more aggressive in the short term and cut someone off in traffic, fight with their girlfriend, or spit on a stranger, society suffers. If you compare the trends in television, movies, games (ie. video games) for violence from the last sixty years you will see a glaring and obvious increase in what is considered "the norm". Leaving all the studies aside, and just thinking as a rational being, how can this not affect society in some way? And how can the effect be anything but negative? |
Well Doc, you're not the only one who can dance. I'll remind you of a study that I mentioned in one of my earlier posts: Brad Bushman (Uni. of Michigan), one of your guys, says in his 2007 study that there's a link between violent Biblical passages and violent behavior. He point-blank states that a guy can go out and do something violent just because he's read those passages a few times and got excited. Now I'm sure that very few people "go postal" after reading their Bible. But even if they become more aggressive in the short term and cut someone off in traffic, fight with their girlfriend, or spit on a stranger, society suffers. Leaving all the studies aside, and just thinking as a rational being, how can this not affect society in some way? And how can the effect be anything but negative?...Now what? |
I say it gets ignored for $1000. Final answer.
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10/19/2010 01:50:21 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Mousie:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by Mousie:
... Little Big Planet... |
That sound track makes me want to slit my throat. ;-P |
People won't be people when they hear this sound
That's been glowing in the dark at the edge of town
People won't be people, no
The people won't be people when they hear this sound
Won't you show me what begins at the edge of town
TAKE THAT STRIKESLIP!!! |
Gah! I'll cover you with peacock feather stamps for that! |
No you won't, that would require creative tools that don't exist! |
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10/19/2010 01:54:33 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
... If you ask people why they work, they answer to make money to go on vacation or buy things. They do not work to contribute to society or help others, etc. Their motivation has changed. ... |
What year was it that people answered this quesiton, "To contribute to society or help others, etc."? |
Ever hear of the Peace Corps? Or people who work for non-profits, often for free?
Or artists?
... |
So you're saying the Peace Corps, non-profits, and artists no longer exist? I'm not asking you & the Dr to toot your charitable horns. I play violent video games and also do charitable work, but don't feel the need to spout off about it. I keep my responses short in order to encourage you to read the entire thing. Look up and read, I've bolded and underlined it. |
To your bolded question, I believe it was the fictional people in M. Night Shyamalan's The Village. :P
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10/19/2010 01:56:46 PM · #121 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
I do look forward to my old age. I'll be incontinent and senile, sitting in my own filth at my gaming rig, trash-talking all the young people in my favourite online first-person shooters. |
I thought that was you I saw in Bad Company II the other day. Thank god there is no electronic smell simulation.
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10/19/2010 02:16:40 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by tycho:
one of your guys, says in his 2007 study that there's a link between violent Biblical passages and violent behavior. He point-blank states that a guy can go out and do something violent just because he's read those passages a few times and got excited. |
Can I see the study? |
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10/19/2010 02:18:54 PM · #123 |
I thought of the Peace Corps like Paul as an example where contributing to society would be important. It would be interesting to know if participation in the Pace Corps has risen or fallen over the last 40 years. That could be evidence to show one way or the other.
For those who have been around long enough, ask yourself if the concept of "duty" means anything different now than it did one or two generations ago. Do we even have such a concept? Isn't the more appropriate question, "what's in it for me?" |
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10/19/2010 02:40:33 PM · #124 |
from Peace Corps Fast Facts:
History
Peace Corps officially established: March 1, 1961
Total number of Volunteers and trainees to date: Nearly 200,000
Total number of countries served: 139
Volunteers
Current number of Volunteers and Trainees: 7,671
Gender: 60% female, 40% male
Marital Status: 93% single, 7% married
Minorities: 16% of Peace Corps Volunteers
Average Age: 28
Volunteers over age 50: 7%
Education: 89% have at least an undergraduate degree
The Peace Corps basically came about when President Kennedy challenged the population to "ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what you can do for your country."
Hmmm ... maybe that culture of American hedonism has been around longer than we think ... |
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10/19/2010 02:51:58 PM · #125 |
The US government totally screwed up society's faith in duty during the Vietnam War, IMO. All you old farts running wall street and doing mountains of cocaine in the 80's didn't exactly help either.
We've been dealing with the recoil ever since.
Doc, you're exhibiting a really pessimistic appraisal of your fellow citizens here. You're directly questioning the very existence of altruism these days. Do you seriously think that nobody joins the Peace Corps or decides to become a teacher anymore? Are you basing this on gut feelings or employment statistics?
Of course this attitude is not exactly surprising, given the general cane-wavy nature of the original post. |
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