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10/17/2010 07:37:08 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Personally I don't think the video games and porn are the disease, they are symptoms of the disease. The disease is the culture of hedonism. That, unfortunately, is not a ship that is going to turn around quickly if you suddenly banned video games or online porn. Somehow we need to teach culture that there are higher goods than the pursuit of pleasure. |
I must be missing something......weren't we talking about whether or not it's the games themselves, that are the problem, as opposed to the addictive personalities, and bad parenting?
I would think you as a doctor would understand the difference between an addictive personality and a philosophy.
I'm personally NOT a subscreiber of the theory that America's goung to Hell in a handbasket because we're a selfish, hedonistic society.
I think that's a convenient label not really describing the unwillingness of some people to do the hard work necessary to become valuable members of society.
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10/17/2010 11:24:41 PM · #52 |
| Well, I was putting in my 0.02. I think the games are harmful, but the real problem is the every increasing need for pleasure (and the ever diminishing returns provided by the activities). The ever-increasing violence in games (or the ever-increasing hardcoreness of porn) is, like I said, the symptom, not the root cause. |
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10/18/2010 12:09:37 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, I was putting in my 0.02. I think the games are harmful, but the real problem is the every increasing need for pleasure (and the ever diminishing returns provided by the activities). The ever-increasing violence in games (or the ever-increasing hardcoreness of porn) is, like I said, the symptom, not the root cause. |
And compared to the heydey of GreeceRome, with the vomitoriums, the Gladiators as entertainment, some very serious hedonism and politics gone haywire... I'd say what we have today is pretty tame by comparison. :-)
Message edited by author 2010-10-18 00:28:45. |
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10/18/2010 12:14:49 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
And compared to the heydey of Greece, with the vomitoriums, the Gladiators as entertainment, some very serious hedonism and politics gone haywire... I'd say what we have today is pretty tame by comparison. :-) |
That was the Roman Empire at its nadir, Deb... Not the Greeks.
R. |
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10/18/2010 12:28:14 AM · #55 |
It's all Greek to me....
Message edited by author 2010-10-18 00:46:34. |
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10/18/2010 12:39:10 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, I was putting in my 0.02. I think the games are harmful, but the real problem is the every increasing need for pleasure (and the ever diminishing returns provided by the activities). The ever-increasing violence in games (or the ever-increasing hardcoreness of porn) is, like I said, the symptom, not the root cause. |
What would be your solution?
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10/18/2010 01:52:37 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, I was putting in my 0.02. I think the games are harmful, but the real problem is the every increasing need for pleasure (and the ever diminishing returns provided by the activities). The ever-increasing violence in games (or the ever-increasing hardcoreness of porn) is, like I said, the symptom, not the root cause. |
And compared to the heydey of GreeceRome, with the vomitoriums, the Gladiators as entertainment, some very serious hedonism and politics gone haywire... I'd say what we have today is pretty tame by comparison. :-) |
We'll get there...we'll get there... |
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10/18/2010 05:01:24 AM · #58 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Well, I was putting in my 0.02. I think the games are harmful, but the real problem is the every increasing need for pleasure (and the ever diminishing returns provided by the activities). The ever-increasing violence in games (or the ever-increasing hardcoreness of porn) is, like I said, the symptom, not the root cause. |
And compared to the heydey of GreeceRome, with the vomitoriums, the Gladiators as entertainment, some very serious hedonism and politics gone haywire... I'd say what we have today is pretty tame by comparison. :-) |
We'll get there...we'll get there... |
You sound almost keen. You're not one one those Christians that are almost orgasmic over the End Times are you Doc? ;) Frantically pushing that awful book, Left Behind into peoples hands. There are a lot of them about at the moment. There seems to be a lot of self fulfilling prophesy type nonsense going on in some quarters.
Joking aside, i do kind of agree with you to a certain extent. But i wouldn't put hedonism as the root problem rather a superficiality that has been caused through late capitalism and pseudo democracy. Consumerism perhaps but that is different from hedonism. I kind of like hedonism. But i do like a day off from it now and then
Message edited by author 2010-10-18 06:27:32. |
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10/18/2010 06:19:59 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think the games are harmful |
Way too broad a statement, so I'll throw in a broad counter-argument too. I am of the [informed] opinion that they are not. Some people have gone to incredible (not to mention illegal and unethical) lengths to prove otherwise but failed spectacularly to do so. E.g. the infamous disbarred lawyer Jack Thompson. Moreover, almost all of the supposedly scientific studies which conclude that videogame violence leads to real life aggression have been slammed and ripped to shreds in peer reviews.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...but the real problem is the every increasing need for pleasure (and the ever diminishing returns provided by the activities). |
Mumbo jumbo
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The ever-increasing violence in games... |
I'm sure you've already guessed that I have a problem with the logic of that statement as well. But...whatever...I'll just point out that while the videogames (including but not limited to the so-called violent ones) have been becoming more and more popular not only among children and teenagers but especially among the adults (Recent surveys show that the average age of videogaming public is 35 -yep, thirtyfive-, and 40% of players are female), the violent crime rates -youth crimes in particular- have been steadily going down in the USA (The largest videogame market), Canada and the UK.
By the way, would you kindly let me take a jab at religion? According to Brad Bushman (A researcher from the University of Michigan, who not only contributed to a 2008 study that claimed to have found a correlation between videogame violence and agression but also was one of the expert witnesses in one of Thompson's tragicomical lawsuits) and a 2007 study he contributed to, there is a clear correlation between violent Biblical passages and agression. Maybe the ever increasing "need for spirituality and godliness" should be curbed as well?
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...(or the ever-increasing hardcoreness of porn)... |
Oi!! I'm trying hard to resist the temptation to take a cheap shot at you, Doc. You know...something like...No, I won't do that!..Anyway, this is another silly conjecture.
But speaking of porn; it is art! It has form, it has content, it imitates life and it sure as hell evokes not only emotional but also physical responses (Both positive and negative depending on the viewer). The problem is that it's been mostly bad art, even when made by big and revered names, such as Bob Carlos Clarke. But I'm still hopeful that one day we'll have truly great fine art porn that deserve to be framed and hung on living room walls.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...is, like I said, the symptom, not the root cause. |
Sorry and with all due respect (I say that sincerely), I still have no idea what problem you're talking about. Yes, you've been throwing words like "hedonism", "pleasure", "harm" and whatnot around, but I've yet to see a coherent and logically consistent argument here. |
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10/18/2010 08:34:51 AM · #60 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I think the games are harmful |
Originally posted by Tycho:
Way too broad a statement, so I'll throw in a broad counter-argument too. I am of the [informed] opinion that they are not. Some people have gone to incredible (not to mention illegal and unethical) lengths to prove otherwise but failed spectacularly to do so. E.g. the infamous disbarred lawyer Jack Thompson. Moreover, almost all of the supposedly scientific studies which conclude that videogame violence leads to real life aggression have been slammed and ripped to shreds in peer reviews. |
I've watched the progression of the types of games my fifteen year old daughter has played over the last six or seven years. It amazes me how her reflexes and analytical strategy skills have improved. She hasn't been as interested in pursuing them since her life has gotten busier with school, sports, and a boyfriend.
She was really good at them, and unusual in the fact that she excelled in the types of games that were usually associated with young males, like World of Warcraft. I saw nothing but a broadening of her exposure to things she might not have experienced otherwise, and there's no thoughts by her mother or I that she cannot separate the fantasy of the games for the reality of life.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...but the real problem is the every increasing need for pleasure (and the ever diminishing returns provided by the activities). |
Originally posted by Tycho:
Mumbo jumbo. |
Yeah.....what the heck does this mean? What diminishing returns? What need for pleasure? It's an amusement to occupy time. IMO, it beats watching television.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The ever-increasing violence in games... |
Originally posted by Tycho:
I'm sure you've already guessed that I have a problem with the logic of that statement as well. But...whatever...I'll just point out that while the videogames (including but not limited to the so-called violent ones) have been becoming more and more popular not only among children and teenagers but especially among the adults (Recent surveys show that the average age of videogaming public is 35 -yep, thirtyfive-, and 40% of players are female), the violent crime rates -youth crimes in particular- have been steadily going down in the USA (The largest videogame market), Canada and the UK.
By the way, would you kindly let me take a jab at religion? According to Brad Bushman (A researcher from the University of Michigan, who not only contributed to a 2008 study that claimed to have found a correlation between videogame violence and agression but also was one of the expert witnesses in one of Thompson's tragicomical lawsuits) and a 2007 study he contributed to, there is a clear correlation between violent Biblical passages and agression. Maybe the ever increasing "need for spirituality and godliness" should be curbed as well? |
What does the violence in the games have to do with it, anyway? Movies, cartoons, and television all carry examples of unreal situations that are no less filled with sex and violence than these games.
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...(or the ever-increasing hardcoreness of porn)... |
Originally posted by Tycho:
Oi!! I'm trying hard to resist the temptation to take a cheap shot at you, Doc. You know...something like...No, I won't do that!..Anyway, this is another silly conjecture
But speaking of porn; it is art! It has form, it has content, it imitates life and it sure as hell evokes not only emotional but also physical responses (Both positive and negative depending on the viewer). The problem is that it's been mostly bad art, even when made by big and revered names, such as Bob Carlos Clarke. But I'm still hopeful that one day we'll have truly great fine art porn that deserve to be framed and hung on living room walls. |
Oh......I'll take the shot!
Doc.....is this statement from years of intensive research, or personal experience?
I know you're too smart a guy to make an unsubstantiated claim!......8~)
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...is, like I said, the symptom, not the root cause. |
Originally posted by Tycho:
Sorry and with all due respect (I say that sincerely), I still have no idea what problem you're talking about. Yes, you've been throwing words like "hedonism", "pleasure", "harm" and whatnot around, but I've yet to see a coherent and logically consistent argument here. |
Ditto.....
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10/18/2010 09:01:31 AM · #61 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
And compared to the heydey of GreeceRome, with the vomitoriums, the Gladiators as entertainment, some very serious hedonism and politics gone haywire... I'd say what we have today is pretty tame by comparison. :-) |
Actually, vomitoria proved to be a very effective of moving large crowds in and out of arenas. So some aspects of that still exist today... :-p |
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10/18/2010 10:59:06 AM · #62 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
...but the real problem is the every increasing need for pleasure (and the ever diminishing returns provided by the activities). |
Originally posted by Tycho:
Mumbo jumbo. |
Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Yeah.....what the heck does this mean? What diminishing returns? What need for pleasure? It's an amusement to occupy time. IMO, it beats watching television. |
In my opinion it's the idea of "occupying time" or "passing time" that's so wrong. Our society excels at making our lives comfortable by the blood, sweat, and tears of the lower classes. We get our home theaters, Play Stations, big screen TVs, and plenty of time to watch them. God forbid we work more than 40 or 50 hours in a week! We need to have time to warm the couch cushions, watch our favorite TV shows, and get to the next level on the latest game. And what affords us the time and the money to indulge ourselves? The working lower classes that work a second job at McDonald's to make and ends meet. They ensure that we can get our food as fast as possible so we can get home to our TV sets faster. Or the office assistant that can hardly put food on the table for his/her kids, but at least he/she makes sure that the paper work gets done so we can leave work early. I just hate to think about all the hours that are wasted watching TV or playing video games. On average, parents spend more time watching TV than having quality time with their children. Think of the impact for good that Americans could make if each person gave up one hour of media time per week to volunteer in their community.
That's my rant. I guess that's just how things are. Hedonism, capitalism... all of it contributes. It's our American way of life. It's all about more. More money for less work. More tasty foods with less nutritional value. More TV time but less meaningful family time. More praise but less effort. More possessions but less happiness. More social networking but less actual socializing. More being served but less serving others. More choices but fewer good choices. More years of life but fewer meaningful years. More marriage and divorce but less love. More production but fewer jobs. The list goes on...
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10/18/2010 11:13:14 AM · #63 |
Originally posted by johnnyphoto:
That's my rant |
It's a good rant and and i don't disagree really although i think there are very good reasons not to work over 50 hours or so. Safety being one of them. But yea, less time spent of consuming. I'd say more time on artistic endeavours myself. Create not consume. I'm as guilty as anyone i guess. I don't have a tv though but i probably spend too much time online browsing away. Saying that though, i think most of my spare time is spent on art or reading with the internet coming third. I don't do sport as it's evil. Your volunteering idea is a good one as well. |
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10/18/2010 12:47:12 PM · #64 |
| I spent the entire weekend camping the shrubs at the front door of my neighbor's house with a squirt gun, spawn fragging them with headshots. I was trying to gain experience points for a badly needed weapons upgrade. |
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10/18/2010 12:49:10 PM · #65 |
| Sometimes, when I drive to work, I cycle between in-car, thrid-person, and license-plate views. You know, just for a change. |
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10/18/2010 12:51:32 PM · #66 |
| When I wake up in the morning, the first thing I ask myself is, "Should I be a Sniper, or Special-Ops today?" Screw the Rifleman, that sucks. |
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10/18/2010 12:53:23 PM · #67 |
| Life is a trade-off. The Rocket-Launcher has nice spread, but the Rail-Gun takes more hit points. Best to bind the weapons to easily accessible keys. |
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10/18/2010 12:54:02 PM · #68 |
| When I want to get there fast, I strafe-jump. |
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10/18/2010 12:57:49 PM · #69 |
| When I receive in-game awards, I typically duplicate them onto paper printouts and laminate them, so I can wear them to work the next day. Everyone really admires that. |
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10/18/2010 12:59:26 PM · #70 |
If you knife me in the back while I'm camping as a sniper, you can bet I'll come back as Special-Ops looking for you.
Sorry, that's not very funny. :-(
Message edited by author 2010-10-18 12:59:54. |
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10/18/2010 12:59:44 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by Strikeslip:
When I receive in-game awards, I typically duplicate them onto paper printouts and laminate them, so I can wear them to work the next day. Everyone really admires that. |
me and the misses...roflofao
edit to add..actually, just wiped a tear from my eye, lol
Message edited by author 2010-10-18 13:00:10.
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10/18/2010 01:03:04 PM · #72 |
Tycho, did you read the whole thread already? I posted a few of many studies you can find that link violent video games to aggressive behavior. You assert they have a been "ripped to shreds" so now it is incumbent upon you to show the evidence of their eviceration. You also decide to counter known medical fact (the diminishing returns of pleasurable acts) with the phrase "mumbo jumbo". That's top shelf intellectually... :P
If you want to search yourself for the literature do a google scholar search for "violence and video games".
I hate when these conversations are redundant and I suddenly have to explain myself all over again because someone just joins and decides not to read what's almost there.
Clive, your comment is annoying because it's completely wrong and you do nothing but stereotype me. Thank you very much. Enjoy the downfall of our society? I don't think so. I said my comment with fatalistic regret.
Message edited by author 2010-10-18 13:06:45. |
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10/18/2010 01:10:19 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Clive, your comment is annoying because it's completely wrong and you do nothing but stereotype me. Thank you very much. Enjoy the downfall of our society? I don't think so. I said my comment with fatalistic regret. |
Sorry Jason, i probably should have posted a smiley or something to signal my bad joke. I did get your point and totally do not think you are like that. Sorry about that. I must remember that humour often doesn't translate well on the interwebs, particularly my not particularly funny brand of it. Apologies again. |
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10/18/2010 01:14:50 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by clive_patric_nolan:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Clive, your comment is annoying because it's completely wrong and you do nothing but stereotype me. Thank you very much. Enjoy the downfall of our society? I don't think so. I said my comment with fatalistic regret. |
Sorry Jason, i probably should have posted a smiley or something to signal my bad joke. I did get your point and totally do not think you are like that. Sorry about that. I must remember that humour often doesn't translate well on the interwebs, particularly my not particularly funny brand of it. Apologies again. |
Ah, if it was a joke then I'm sorry for not getting it. :) My faith gets trashed a fair amount around here and I'm probably conditioned to view things that way. No worries.
Message edited by author 2010-10-18 13:15:00. |
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10/18/2010 01:40:55 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
....studies you can find that link violent video games to aggressive behavior... |
Is it the other way around? I've always been aggressive, but have only recently started playing violent video games.
My wife is not aggressive at all, and she sucks at these games. |
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