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 09/09/2010 10:23:50 PM · #76
You guys aren't disagreeing with me. By "complex" I mean "multi-cellular". It's possible bacteria could outlive us, but I doubt much else will. I'm not being anthropomorphic but rather simple looking from an adaptation point of view. What ecological niche have we not moved into? The deep ocean is about it save the most extreme microzones.

Imagine some other hardy lifeform. The cockroach or something. Now imagine the bare minimum needed to sustain the species. Do you think we couldn't adapt to utilize the same resources?

Message edited by author 2010-09-09 22:24:09.
 09/09/2010 10:26:23 PM · #77
Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Imagine some other hardy lifeform. The cockroach or something. Now imagine the bare minimum needed to sustain the species. Do you think we couldn't adapt to utilize the same resources?


Stated succinctly... NO

Ray
 09/09/2010 10:31:44 PM · #78
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Do you think we couldn't adapt to utilize the same resources?

lol. Do you? I couldn't do without my Tassimo or a nice round of golf now and then. :-D
 09/10/2010 12:16:09 AM · #79
It's kinda like IQ tests, I think; the only reason we might be able to consider ourselves the most highly evolved complex organism on earth is because we are the ones defining what it means to be "highly evolved". It's really, really hard to argue that if there were, say, nuclear Armageddon or some extinction event like a massive comet strike (to name just a couple examples), the cockroaches wouldn't out-survive us.

In fact, if you watch "Survivor" on TV, you'll see that the characters most resembling human cockroaches *always* make it to the end...

(Runs for shelter)

R.
 09/10/2010 12:17:06 AM · #80
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The cockroach or something... Do you think we couldn't adapt to utilize the same resources?

Crunchy, yet satisfying.
 09/10/2010 02:16:32 AM · #81
And speaking of Armageddon, there are some extremists who look forward to this event, believing themselves to be on the 'favoured' side. And they are willing to provoke the calamity.
 09/10/2010 07:39:17 AM · #82
I understand some people protesting over the burning event outside a Nato base in Afghanistan have been shot this morning.
 09/10/2010 07:47:43 AM · #83
Originally posted by paulbtlw:
I understand some people protesting over the burning event outside a Nato base in Afghanistan have been shot this morning.


It's getting precisely the effect it was after then.

Also, apparently the Westbro Babtist Church were annoyed by the proposed Quran burning. But only because they did it themselves 2 years ago and no one payed attention. I imagine they'll have to up the stakes now. Perhaps find a Muslim to smear in pig fat. They really are the kings of right wing Christian hate-nuttery.

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 07:48:09.
 09/10/2010 07:59:08 AM · #84
protests

Demonstrators burned a US flag and chanted "Death to Christians".

You can't try to one-up these lunatics. However offensive we find their actions, you just can't argue with religious fanatics. that goes for the christian right as well.
 09/10/2010 08:01:17 AM · #85
I agree with a previous post (somewhere back in the bowels of this thread) -- I think we should build it right in the middle of ground zero to show that we're a country of acceptance, not hate.

What ever happened to America being the place of religious freedom? Whatever happened to America being an intelligent nation that realizes that the extremist, psycho nutjobs have absolutely nothing to do with a peaceful religion that's just trying to go about its daily business? These people who want to build the mosque have done nothing wrong.

I'm embarrassed that this pastor claims to be of the same religion as I am. My religion is about love thy neighbor, not "let's see how much anger and hate we can spread."

Let's see -- according to some people we're supposed to hate all Muslims because of 9/11, hate all germans because of hitler, hate all japanese because of pearl harbor. The list is getting a little too long here. How about we start learning the difference between kind, peaceful people and fanatics?

STOP HATING!! I'm sick and tired of all the hate!

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 10:04:12.
 09/10/2010 08:29:04 AM · #86
Originally posted by vawendy:
I agree with a previous post (somewhere back in the bowels of this thread) -- I think we should build it right in the middle of ground zero to show that we're a country of acceptance, not hate.

Actually, when people were talking about building it in the middle of Ground Zero, I thought it was intended to stop them flying planes into it again for fear of hitting the mosque.
09/10/2010 08:29:17 AM · #87
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by Louis:
Well... that's pretty much the top end of the scale of existence for any distinct species. And yes, the difficulty in making predictions about the longevity of species (including those in the fossil record) is in deciding if its extinction is due to intrinsic or environmental factors.


Evolution itself drives extinction... As do many other things, yesterday two asteroids passed between the moon and the earth... We noticed them Sunday. Anything that goes between the Earth and Moon is a candidate for serious problems. The latest eruption in Indonesia was a volcano just a bit north of Toba.. Etc. Etc.. But really? I strongly suspect that we will indeed be the causation of our own demise.


Unless the catastrophe is large enough to remove ALL complex life from the surface of the earth, humans will be the last to survive. We are obviously the most well adapted complex creature on earth and thus will make it to the end. If there is plant life, there will be human life.


I don't know why you think this. Take away everything man has invented to keep himself the dominant species on this planet and we're no better equipped than a gorilla in the jungle keeping himself dry from the rain with leaves. Even your great book won't keep you alive much longer than an ape.
 09/10/2010 08:34:25 AM · #88
Originally posted by Jac:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by coryboehne:
Originally posted by Louis:
Well... that's pretty much the top end of the scale of existence for any distinct species. And yes, the difficulty in making predictions about the longevity of species (including those in the fossil record) is in deciding if its extinction is due to intrinsic or environmental factors.


Evolution itself drives extinction... As do many other things, yesterday two asteroids passed between the moon and the earth... We noticed them Sunday. Anything that goes between the Earth and Moon is a candidate for serious problems. The latest eruption in Indonesia was a volcano just a bit north of Toba.. Etc. Etc.. But really? I strongly suspect that we will indeed be the causation of our own demise.


Unless the catastrophe is large enough to remove ALL complex life from the surface of the earth, humans will be the last to survive. We are obviously the most well adapted complex creature on earth and thus will make it to the end. If there is plant life, there will be human life.


I don't know why you think this. Take away everything man has invented to keep himself the dominant species on this planet and we're no better equipped than a gorilla in the jungle keeping himself dry from the rain with leaves. Even your great book won't keep you alive much longer than an ape.

Plus, a gorilla has fur to keep him warm. We're probably the only species *not* adapted for surviving in the wild. Take away weapons and it levels the playing field.

Unless you fancy your chances against that gorilla armed with a stick.

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." Albert Einstein
 09/10/2010 08:58:29 AM · #89
This thread does no credit to dpc
 09/10/2010 09:01:59 AM · #90
Originally posted by idp:
This thread does no credit to dpc


What is it about the thread you disagree with Roger? It doesn't seem like a particularly troublesome thread to me really.
 09/10/2010 09:07:17 AM · #91
Originally posted by idp:
This thread does no credit to dpc


You can ignore certain sections of the forum in your profile preferences. I have a few off my watch list like the Rant forum. I do occasionally go there for enlightenment though, which rarely occurs.

What is it you don't like about people discussing current events?
 09/10/2010 09:11:49 AM · #92
Believe me I have no problem with people discussing current events - but there are jokes and comments in here which are not tolerant or inclusive - and there are bald generalisations about racial and religious groups - i would welcome a wider spread of membership on this site, including lots of people from across a wide range of religions and cultural tradiitons and this thread does nothing to make people feel welcome
 09/10/2010 09:21:27 AM · #93
Perhaps Langdon can invent a different icon for Muslim members, so we can be careful not to inadvertently insult them.
 09/10/2010 09:27:16 AM · #94
Originally posted by idp:
Believe me I have no problem with people discussing current events - but there are jokes and comments in here which are not tolerant or inclusive - and there are bald generalisations about racial and religious groups - i would welcome a wider spread of membership on this site, including lots of people from across a wide range of religions and cultural tradiitons and this thread does nothing to make people feel welcome


You shouldn't take it so seriously. Nobody has insulted anyone outright insofar as I can see. If you take certain things the wrong way well that is personal and you shouldn't say things like this thread isn't making people feel welcomed, it wasn't the purpose of the thread in the first place. I like the fact we can discuss things other than photography. As long as it remains civil I see no problem. If a new arrival is insulted by what they see in this particular thread well then they may not be reading it in its entirety and taking certain posts out of context. Who knows?

If you have the time, please point out examples of what you're saying.
 09/10/2010 09:29:40 AM · #95
Originally posted by JH:
Perhaps Langdon can invent a different icon for Muslim members, so we can be careful not to inadvertently insult them.


Well that kind of comment doesn't help one bit though.

And with that I place this on ignore....

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 09:30:30.
 09/10/2010 09:53:15 AM · #96
The comment that got my goat was this -

Actually, when people were talking about building it in the middle of Ground Zero, I thought it was intended to stop them flying planes into it again for fear of hitting the mosque.

(I'm not good at the quotes thingy)

but throughout there has been a use of 'Muslims' as a generic which i find unhelpful as in -

Muslims brush off the odd drone attack or invasion of their country, but throw tantrums over a book burning

gangs of Muslims burning American flags

If you are a non-Muslim, then to Muslims you are kafir (an infidel) regardless of your religion.

Dont offend the Muslims, you cant even mention them in a negative way. With this group come the people that say you should treat everyone's religion with respect. Im tired of treating Muslims with extra special care.

Tht will do for exaamples. i am not saying that any of this is wicked or evil, that it should be banned or shouldn't be said. I'm not even calling it offensive, in the strict sense.

i am saying that the internet is a global comunity and that is one of its best features and the general tone of some (not all by a long way) of the comments on this thread assumes that the world is made up of them and us (in this case Moslems and non Moslems) and that it largely proceeds on the basis that a dpcer is probably in the us (not the U.S.) camp.

This kind of hegemonic control over any medium of communication is undesirable - even the most liberal comments on this thread have been by way of rejoinder to the prevailing western christian orientated attitude.

i would prefer it if the thread were more inclusive and proceeded less on assumptions about the world which many will have trouble accepting. If i were looking at this site from Somalia or Libya or Pakistan would I feel that it is a place where I might expect to feel welcomes and to be treated with respect ? Not if I read this thread.

For this reason I think it does dpc no credit - because actually I think the answer is that yes these imaginary viewers would find a welcome and respect.

09/10/2010 10:17:21 AM · #97
Originally posted by idp:
The comment that got my goat was this -

Actually, when people were talking about building it in the middle of Ground Zero, I thought it was intended to stop them flying planes into it again for fear of hitting the mosque.

(I'm not good at the quotes thingy)

but throughout there has been a use of 'Muslims' as a generic which i find unhelpful as in -

Muslims brush off the odd drone attack or invasion of their country, but throw tantrums over a book burning

gangs of Muslims burning American flags

If you are a non-Muslim, then to Muslims you are kafir (an infidel) regardless of your religion.

Dont offend the Muslims, you cant even mention them in a negative way. With this group come the people that say you should treat everyone's religion with respect. Im tired of treating Muslims with extra special care.

Tht will do for exaamples. i am not saying that any of this is wicked or evil, that it should be banned or shouldn't be said. I'm not even calling it offensive, in the strict sense.

i am saying that the internet is a global comunity and that is one of its best features and the general tone of some (not all by a long way) of the comments on this thread assumes that the world is made up of them and us (in this case Moslems and non Moslems) and that it largely proceeds on the basis that a dpcer is probably in the us (not the U.S.) camp.

This kind of hegemonic control over any medium of communication is undesirable - even the most liberal comments on this thread have been by way of rejoinder to the prevailing western christian orientated attitude.

i would prefer it if the thread were more inclusive and proceeded less on assumptions about the world which many will have trouble accepting. If i were looking at this site from Somalia or Libya or Pakistan would I feel that it is a place where I might expect to feel welcomes and to be treated with respect ? Not if I read this thread.

For this reason I think it does dpc no credit - because actually I think the answer is that yes these imaginary viewers would find a welcome and respect.


Part of the problem with all of this is just plain ignorance. It is an "us and them" situation until you take the time to get to know people. We cannot be a global community until we understand each other. I believe the originator of this thread was seeking out such information and genuinely wanting to know how much of an issue this was. I was hoping that, since this is a little miniature global community, that there would have been some teaching, explaining, and theorizing by people more in the know. Unfortunately, it hasn't happened. But I think that it was a worthwhile attempt.
 09/10/2010 10:29:24 AM · #98
I agree with all that
 09/10/2010 10:44:42 AM · #99
Originally posted by Jac:
I don't know why you think this. Take away everything man has invented to keep himself the dominant species on this planet and we're no better equipped than a gorilla in the jungle keeping himself dry from the rain with leaves. Even your great book won't keep you alive much longer than an ape.


LOL. But of course we DON'T take away our inventions because they are a product of our well adapted brains. It's not like we're going to stop being ingenious just because a meteor hits earth...
 09/10/2010 10:48:25 AM · #100
Originally posted by idp:
The comment that got my goat was this -

(quoting JH)Actually, when people were talking about building it in the middle of Ground Zero, I thought it was intended to stop them flying planes into it again for fear of hitting the mosque.


'Them' in this context referring to muslim extremists/radicals or whatever term is in vogue. Although my suggestion was in jest, the sad truth is that if there had been a mosque on the top floor of WTC1, 9/11 would never have happened. They have more respect for their holy book than for the lives of the 3,000 people who happened to be in buildings that day.

And perhaps that goes somewhat towards explaining my next comment;

Originally posted by idp:
(quoting JH) Muslims brush off the odd drone attack or invasion of their country, but throw tantrums over a book burning


'Muslims' in this context refer to Muslims living in Afghanistan and Pakistan, for example. We see today, tens of thousands of Afghan muslims taking to the streets protesting at the mere *threat* of burning their Koran. And yet, over the past 9 years there have been thousands of their fellow Afghan muslims killed in the war. How many protested at that?

Originally posted by idp:
(quoting JH) gangs of Muslims burning American flags


This statement is accurate. I can't think of any other way to sub-categorise the word 'gangs' - How about 'groups' instead? - Might be more tolerant and inclusive.

Originally posted by idp:
(quoting JH) If you are a non-Muslim, then to Muslims you are kafir (an infidel) regardless of your religion.


Which is true. Ask any muslim to define what a non-muslim is, what term they would use, and this is the answer.

Originally posted by idp:
i would prefer it if the thread were more inclusive and proceeded less on assumptions about the world which many will have trouble accepting. If i were looking at this site from Somalia or Libya or Pakistan would I feel that it is a place where I might expect to feel welcomes and to be treated with respect ? Not if I read this thread.


If I showed up in Libya, Somalia, or Pakistan, how much respect do you think I would be afforded? We've reached this state of fear, being told we must be tolerant, inclusive, accepting and welcoming of Muslims. Terrified of saying something that might offend 'them' because of this irrational reaction we see. Even the politicians were running around like headless chickens when they heard about the koran burning because they *knew* how muslims would react.

Your vision of inclusiveness is certainly preferable to the divisions we see today (the reality of 'us' and 'them') - However, I don't believe this one-sided tolerance and acceptance is the way forward.

Religion itself is the divisive component. When mankind begins to realise the negative and toxic impact religion is having, and starts moving towards balanced and informed acceptance, free of superstition and irrational beliefs, then we might be on the way to harmony.

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