Burning a Bible - DPChallenge Forums

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

09/10/2010 08:58:55 PM · #152

Originally posted by david_c:

Originally posted by scalvert:
I've posted that challenge many times (several directly to Achoo).

Over 300 of them. Check and mate, read 'em and weep, atheist. >:-{

Better double-check, mate. You posted a list of 300 fallacies.

david_c

Canon EOS-7D

09/10/2010 09:08:04 PM · #153

Originally posted by scalvert:

Better double-check, mate. You posted a list of 300 fallacies.

1. Double checks data.
2. Nope, air-tight arguments, all of them. Especially #183.
3. But even more especially #216.
3. Therefore, God exists.

>:-{{{

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 21:08:22.

09/10/2010 09:13:11 PM · #154

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Sorry, I was referring specifically to religious faith.

I personally believe that the Christian faith teaches that motivation is more important than the deed when considering the "righteousness" of an action.

(I should be explicit that my belief is discussing whether this is truth within the context of Christianity.)

The keystone of this comes from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5-7. He gives us a few examples of how motivation is more important than what actaully gets done.

"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

We can find the roots of this already in the Prophets of the Old Testament. Isaiah quotes God by announcing that the sacrificial system is far inferior to being right in your heart.

I could keep going, but I'll pause at this point to let you point out my fallacy or counter my argument.

Well you could go on but this is starting to look like a list of things that Christians are taught rather than proof of your own personal faith.

09/10/2010 09:16:40 PM · #155

Originally posted by yanko:

Well you could go on but this is starting to look like a list of things that Christians are taught rather than proof of your own personal faith.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean unless you are claiming some epistemologic solipsism. Are you saying I make a poor argument or you are unsure whether I really believe this? or are you saying that your incredibly general statement was really translated to "you can't prove God exists"?

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 21:18:49.

09/10/2010 09:25:36 PM · #156

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Well you could go on but this is starting to look like a list of things that Christians are taught rather than proof of your own personal faith.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean unless you are claiming some epistemologic solipsism. Are you saying I make a poor argument or you are unsure whether I really believe this?

The latter. Prove that you believe that. Prove your faith.

Mousie

09/10/2010 09:41:14 PM · #157

david_c,

Does Superman exist?
Do elephants made of chartreuse meat and porcelain bones exist?
Does your illegitimate half-Martian half-brother exist?
Does your little cat that lives inside a Victorian gingerbread house in the stomach of a slightly larger dog exist?

I can think of them, therefore they must exist.

I can also think of a god that's more powerful and sexier than your god, so he must exist too. Start worshiping.

In fact, I can think of this universe existing without god, so it must exist!

Over 300 reasons to question your logical thinking, more like it.

(Unless you're attempting subtle humor by sarcastically holding up as evidence something that would make any logician worth his salt weep with despair, of course.)

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 21:42:32.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

09/10/2010 09:46:42 PM · #158

Y'all probably need to note David's tongue firmly planted in his cheek.

Of course, I could be wrong. I'm also overly dramatic.

:-)

09/10/2010 09:47:20 PM · #159

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Well you could go on but this is starting to look like a list of things that Christians are taught rather than proof of your own personal faith.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean unless you are claiming some epistemologic solipsism. Are you saying I make a poor argument or you are unsure whether I really believe this?

The latter. Prove that you believe that. Prove your faith.

LOL. Well, that narrows it down quite a bit. :/

I think we need to review some basic Philosophy and Logic 101.

I am unaware of an argument that causes one to deduce God exists. I am, however, aware of many arguments that allow one to infer God exists. An inference is not a fallacy. It is a logical, rational position based upon a logical, rational argument that may or may not be true. One can quite capably allow their position to be "put to debate" without invoking fallacy or admitting defeat by relying on inference. And lest you think inference is somehow weak or only allowed in philosophical debate, we make inferences in Science and act upon them all the time. It is quite unfair to demand a deductive argument about God when we do not demand such rigor with Scientific matters of life and death.

This is why I get frustrated with you guys at times. I'm not questioning your intelligence, but I do, at times, question your knowledge. This is fundamental, basic stuff when it comes to argument and logic. And it aggrevates me to see smug rejoinders that fail to apply this knowledge.

Mousie

09/10/2010 09:57:31 PM · #160

@DrAchoo I don't think that's what's been asked for.

What I'm reading is a request to prove that your faith exists... prove to us that you actually believe in God and that you aren't aren't just lying about it to us for some reason unknowable to us.

Is that what you're getting at yanko?

Seems like a pretty impossible task to me!

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 21:58:41.

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

09/10/2010 10:00:45 PM · #161

Originally posted by Mousie:

Ya I agree about it being impossible. Prove to me YOU exist. I don't think that's what Yanko is getting at though. He wants a deductive argument that forces one to believe as I believe. I cannot provide that. However, neither is there a deductive argument that forces one to believe as he does either.

Kelli

Canon EOS-D60

09/10/2010 10:02:41 PM · #162

Originally posted by Melethia:

Y'all probably need to note David's tongue firmly planted in his cheek.

Of course, I could be wrong. I'm also overly dramatic.

:-)

Drama Queen! ;D

Mousie

09/10/2010 10:07:55 PM · #163

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean unless you are claiming some epistemologic solipsism. Are you saying I make a poor argument or you are unsure whether I really believe this?

The latter. Prove that you believe that. Prove your faith.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me... The latter: are you unsure whether I really believe this?

His request: Prove that you believe that. Prove your (italicized to indicate he's discussing you, not the faith) faith.

09/10/2010 10:09:41 PM · #164

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Well you could go on but this is starting to look like a list of things that Christians are taught rather than proof of your own personal faith.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean unless you are claiming some epistemologic solipsism. Are you saying I make a poor argument or you are unsure whether I really believe this?

The latter. Prove that you believe that. Prove your faith.

LOL. Well, that narrows it down quite a bit. :/

I think we need to review some basic Philosophy and Logic 101.

I am unaware of an argument that causes one to deduce God exists. I am, however, aware of many arguments that allow one to infer God exists. An inference is not a fallacy. It is a logical, rational position based upon a logical, rational argument that may or may not be true. One can quite capably allow their position to be "put to debate" without invoking fallacy or admitting defeat by relying on inference. And lest you think inference is somehow weak or only allowed in philosophical debate, we make inferences in Science and act upon them all the time. It is quite unfair to demand a deductive argument about God when we do not demand such rigor with Scientific matters of life and death.

This is why I get frustrated with you guys at times. I'm not questioning your intelligence, but I do, at times, question your knowledge. This is fundamental, basic stuff when it comes to argument and logic. And it aggrevates me to see smug rejoinders that fail to apply this knowledge.

Why are you making assumptions and jumping to conclusions? I didn't ask for a deductive argument and I didn't say an inference is a fallacy and you haven't offered any in your proof.

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 22:26:16.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

09/10/2010 10:09:55 PM · #165

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I personally believe that the Christian faith teaches that motivation is more important than the deed when considering the "righteousness" of an action.... I'll pause at this point to let you point out my fallacy...

The fallacy you used this time is a tautology (The Bible explains what God find more important. We know this because the Bible says so). Without the Bible, you wouldn't have the faintest clue what God wants or finds important.

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 22:11:16.

09/10/2010 10:13:44 PM · #166

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by Mousie:
@DrAchoo I don't think that's what's been asked for.

What I'm reading is a request to prove that your faith exists... prove to us that you actually believe in God and that you aren't aren't just lying about it to us for some reason unknowable to us.

Is that what you're getting at yanko?

Seems like a pretty impossible task to me!

Ya I agree about it being impossible. Prove to me YOU exist. I don't think that's what Yanko is getting at though. He wants a deductive argument that forces one to believe as I believe. I cannot provide that. However, neither is there a deductive argument that forces one to believe as he does either.

No. See my previous post. Oh and I could prove that something named "Mousie" exists. Whether he is an actual person and not some Langdon forum bot creation might take more work but even if that weren't possible I'd still get further along than proving a god exists.

09/10/2010 10:21:41 PM · #167

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I personally believe that the Christian faith teaches that motivation is more important than the deed when considering the "righteousness" of an action.... I'll pause at this point to let you point out my fallacy...

The fallacy you used this time is a tautology (The Bible explains what God find more important. We know this because the Bible says so). Without the Bible, you wouldn't have the faintest clue what God wants or finds important.

Uh, no. The Christian faith takes the Bible as authority (this is semi-axiomatic, but could be shown through evidence of such belief) and thus I used that authority to prove my point within the Christian faith. That's not tautology at all. You and your so called "fallacies".

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 22:27:14.

09/10/2010 10:25:59 PM · #168

Originally posted by yanko:

Why are you making assumptions and jumping to conclusions? I didn't ask for a deductive argument and I didn't say an inference is a fallacy and you haven't offered either.

I believe you did. Define for me "prove". I've offered many inference arguments over the years. See posts about Anthony Flew, etc. I won't go into them here because that will be a lot of work and I'm guessing you don't care.

We could share the load. Prove to me your position. And to be clear, by "prove" I mean give me a deductive argument.

Message edited by author 2010-09-10 22:28:15.

09/10/2010 10:29:11 PM · #169

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Why are you making assumptions and jumping to conclusions? I didn't ask for a deductive argument and I didn't say an inference is a fallacy and you haven't offered either.

I believe you did. Define for me "prove". I've offered many inference arguments over the years. See posts about Anthony Flew, etc. I won't go into them here because that will be a lot of work and I'm guessing you don't care.

Well this isn't going any where so forget it. Just don't complain the next time you offer up some hypothetical and people go off on tangents or get upset and don't answer your questions.

09/10/2010 10:30:28 PM · #170

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Originally posted by yanko:
Why are you making assumptions and jumping to conclusions? I didn't ask for a deductive argument and I didn't say an inference is a fallacy and you haven't offered either.

I believe you did. Define for me "prove". I've offered many inference arguments over the years. See posts about Anthony Flew, etc. I won't go into them here because that will be a lot of work and I'm guessing you don't care.

Well this isn't going any where so forget it. Just don't complain the next time you offer up some hypothetical and people go off on tangents or get upset and don't answer your questions.

Haha. That happens all the time here in Rant-world, doesn't it? Seriously, we could have this conversation, but it would literally take hours even if we were talking face to face. To post it in written form, wait for reply, etc., that would take forever.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

09/10/2010 10:53:45 PM · #171

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

The Christian faith takes the Bible as authority (this is semi-axiomatic, but could be shown through evidence of such belief)...

This time you used the argumentum ad populum fallacy: the Bible is an authority because lots of people believe it is.

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

I used a authority to prove my point within the Christian faith.

As noted, you used that tautology because you can't back up the belief without resorting to fallacy. If the Bible didn't tell you what God wants, then you'd have absolutely no way of knowing, and the only reason you assume the Bible tells you what God wants is because it says it does and/or because lots of people think it does (both fallacies).

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

That's not tautology at all. You and your so called "fallacies".

Argument from ignorance.

"TAUTOLOGY: (a sub-category of circular argument) defining terms or qualifying an argument in such a way that it would be impossible to disprove the argument. Often, the rationale for the argument is merely a restatement of the conclusion in different words.

example: The Bible is the word of God. We know this because the Bible itself tells us so."

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

09/10/2010 10:56:07 PM · #172

Stop babbling nonsense. Are you seriously contending that the idea that Christians consider the Bible to be authoritative to their own faith to be fallacy? Is this your actual position?

Louis

Nikon D800

09/10/2010 11:04:09 PM · #173

It ain't nonsense. It's one of the most indefensible and well-known fallacies relating to religious belief. Authorities deriving their authority from themselves are inherently fallacious. Really, you don't get that?